coaching both sexes to the WR in the same event


Main message board: for the discussion of topical track & field items only.

coaching both sexes to the WR in the same event

Postby Guest » Tue Jul 15, 2003 6:54 am

With Yelena Isinbayeva the new PV WR holder for women and Sergei Bubka the WR holder for men, is Vitaliy Petrov the only person to ever coach both sexes to the WR in the same event?
Guest
 

Re: coaching both sexes to the WR in the same event

Postby Guest » Tue Jul 15, 2003 8:28 am

I'd say no, since there have only been 2 outdoor world record holders, Emma George and Stacy Dragila.
Guest
 

Re: coaching both sexes to the WR in the same event

Postby Jon » Tue Jul 15, 2003 8:42 am

>I'd say no, since there have only been 2 outdoor
>world record holders, Emma George and Stacy
>Dragila.

I think he means in ANY event (not just the PV)...
Jon
 
Posts: 9231
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: coaching both sexes to the WR in the same event

Postby tafnut » Tue Jul 15, 2003 8:45 am

Whoever coaches Tim & Marion in 2004.
tafnut
 
Posts: 26684
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: Lost at C (-minus)

Re: coaching both sexes to the WR in the same event

Postby 197hjsteve » Tue Jul 15, 2003 10:19 am

That means you think Marion will run either 10.48 and/or 21.33 ??!!

She's a terrific runner, maybe the best ever, but she cannot run 10.48 or 21.33.
197hjsteve
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: coaching both sexes to the WR in the same event

Postby tafnut » Tue Jul 15, 2003 10:26 am

OK, so A. Felix joins them to increase the odds.
tafnut
 
Posts: 26684
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: Lost at C (-minus)

Re: coaching both sexes to the WR in the same event

Postby tafnut » Tue Jul 15, 2003 10:28 am

Oh, and I like your statement, maybe the best ever (I DO say best ever). Doesn't that say a great deal about Flo-Jo?
tafnut
 
Posts: 26684
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: Lost at C (-minus)

Re: coaching both sexes to the WR in the same event

Postby 197hjsteve » Tue Jul 15, 2003 10:33 am

we are not allowed to broach "that subject", but because of "that subject", I think Marion's the best. If and when she pulls off the 100/200 double in Athens it's a slam dunk. But I do not think she'll ever get either WR. She can maybe run 10.62 with a perfect start and a 1.9 wind, and with similar conditions a 21.65 in the 200.
So she gets cheated out of WR's because of "that subject."

'Nuff said.
197hjsteve
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: coaching both sexes to the WR in the same event

Postby 197hjsteve » Tue Jul 15, 2003 10:46 am

And irregardless of Flo Jo, etc., a double next year makes her the best ever anyway. Move over Wilma, Wyomia, Flo Jo, Gail, or any of the German women. Marion's the queen !
197hjsteve
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: coaching both sexes to the WR in the same event

Postby tafnut » Tue Jul 15, 2003 11:05 am

Speaking of German women, why is the 400 record still Koch's, when it is 'proven' that she WAS on drugs. Didn't the IAAF strip Ben of stuff he had done before Seoul? I understand 'not getting caught' keeps a record/medal, but once you're declared officially guilty, doesn't that mean you are stripped of your marks?
tafnut
 
Posts: 26684
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: Lost at C (-minus)

Re: coaching both sexes to the WR in the same event

Postby gh » Tue Jul 15, 2003 11:13 am

IAAF, far as I know, has never looked at any evidence that Koch--or anybody else from the DDR--was dirty. There have been reports of people seeing Stasi files which ID certain athletes as having been on a program, but unlike Ben Johnson's case, where he admitted under oath in a court of law, as to having been dirty earlier, the DDR cases go no farther than that.

I suspect the IAAF fears--and unfortunately i have to agree--what a terminal hit the sport might take if it suddenly obviated about half the women's medals (and many existing World Records) from the OG and WC of the '80s.

They should have taken the easy out that was presented to them at the turn of the millenium and gone for "new millenium WRs" and started over. It would have been a rather shallow bit of subterfuge, but the public would very quickly have bought into it, just as they accept "new" WRs with the new javelins.
gh
 
Posts: 46327
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Re: coaching both sexes to the WR in the same event

Postby 197hjsteve » Tue Jul 15, 2003 11:18 am

The IAF ( or whatever the letters are now ) are just trying to pretend that none of that "Drug Stuff' ever happened. If no one talks about it, we all just go quietly on, with mucho impregnable records. That's their approach. And maybe they are right. If you open the Can Of Worms of stripping athletes of WR's, it becomes a Slippery Slope very, very quickly. So they will never do it.

And the fabulous female athletes in the near and intermediate future in just about all events will just have to pay the price of no WR's.
197hjsteve
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: coaching both sexes to the WR in the same event

Postby tafnut » Tue Jul 15, 2003 11:20 am

"There have been reports of people seeing Stasi files which ID certain athletes as having been on a program"

I could swear I read a big article about how the whole apparatus was thoroughly investigated and the women themselves spoke up on how they felt used by the DDR machine, which then spat them out with their forever chemically altered bodies. Cornelia Ender was one and I swear the big track names were in there also.
tafnut
 
Posts: 26684
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: Lost at C (-minus)

Re: coaching both sexes to the WR in the same event

Postby 197hjsteve » Tue Jul 15, 2003 11:25 am

would not it be nice, and honorable, if all the DDR ladies would make a joint declaration of all the stuff that they were subject to, and then various swimming and track bodies could get this all cleaned up ?

Ladies, step forward ! And we will respect you for it.
197hjsteve
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: coaching both sexes to the WR in the same event

Postby Guest » Tue Jul 15, 2003 11:41 am

Help me out here. When most women go through child birth their hips widen slightly. This does not speak well for sprint (or any other running)form/biomechanics. Am I crazy to think that Marion may not come back as fast as she once was.

Anyone know of good examples of women who were faster after child birth than before? I'm sure their are good examples but are they the exception or the norm?

I hope (for the USA team) she comes back faster but I wouldn't count on it. Either way its unlikely that Tim and Marion would hold a sprint record at the same time. Not to likely she'll best Flo Jo's 100 time and if she did get Flo Jo's 200 time Tim won't get MJ 200 time.
Guest
 

Re: coaching both sexes to the WR in the same event

Postby Guest » Tue Jul 15, 2003 12:21 pm

Gwen Torrence took maternity leave in 1989 and came back to run faster than ever and win a couple of gold medals.
Just an example
Guest
 

Re: coaching both sexes to the WR in the same event

Postby Guest » Tue Jul 15, 2003 12:27 pm

Irena Szewinska; history is full of examples of how childbirth has produced better women athletes. East Germans used to get their women pregnant on puprose, then abort.
Guest
 

Re: coaching both sexes to the WR in the same event

Postby Guest » Tue Jul 15, 2003 12:31 pm

>Help me out here. When most women go through
>child birth their hips widen slightly. This does
>not speak well for sprint (or any other
>running)form/biomechanics. Am I crazy to think
>that Marion may not come back as fast as she once
>was.

(Anyone know of good examples of women
>who were faster after child birth than before?)
>I'm sure their are good examples but are they the
>exception or the norm?

I hope (for the USA
>team) she comes back faster but I wouldn't count
>on it. Either way its unlikely that Tim and
>Marion would hold a sprint record at the same
>time. Not to likely she'll best Flo Jo's 100
>time and if she did get Flo Jo's 200 time Tim
>won't get MJ 200 time.

norways ingrid kristiansen improved her times and set world records after having a baby.
Guest
 

Re: coaching both sexes to the WR in the same event

Postby Powell » Tue Jul 15, 2003 12:46 pm

>Irena Szewinska; history is full of examples of
>how childbirth has produced better women
>athletes. East Germans used to get their women
>pregnant on puprose, then abort.

I'm not so sure Szewinska is the best example... She struggled for a long time after childbirth before she came back to the top. She did eventually run faster than ever, but it was only 4 years after having the baby that she became no. 1 in the world again. I don't suppose Marion would want to wait until 2007 to be world champion again.
Powell
 
Posts: 9063
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Vanuatu

Re: coaching both sexes to the WR in the same event

Postby Guest » Tue Jul 15, 2003 1:28 pm

I think we got side tracked on the subject,but there are several women who have come back better. Gwen Torrence good example. I think this bodes well for Marion's 200 and 400 times. In the 100 she will have to focus on Sprinting technique and her start.
Guest
 

Re: coaching both sexes to the WR in the same event

Postby Jon » Tue Jul 15, 2003 1:56 pm

>I think we got side tracked on the subject,but
>there are several women who have come back
>better. Gwen Torrence good example. I think this
>bodes well for Marion's 200 and 400 times. In the
>100 she will have to focus on Sprinting technique
>and her start.

I'm sure Valerie Brisco-Hooks also had a child during her athletics career. Heike Drechsler also had a child a good few years ago and it didn't seem to affect her too much. Fiona May had a child last year and has seen some decent form this year (hopefully, she'll improve some more by Paris, and same goes for Denise Lewis who is also making a comeback this year after pregnancy).

Am I right in thinking that Christine Arron had a baby last year...?
Jon
 
Posts: 9231
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: coaching both sexes to the WR in the same event

Postby tafnut » Tue Jul 15, 2003 3:55 pm

In a brief internet search I found this site:

http://www.t-mag.com/articles/180ana2.html

here's an excerpt (and look who wrote it!)

Anabolic Athletics: A Brief History of Drugs in Sport
by Charlie Francis

"Dr. Hommel pointed out the difficulty in getting the real picture of drug use in East Germany. Although he was the personal physician to Marita Koch, assigned by the federation, he had no control over her drug program. Marita was already on record with complaints about her drug protocol. In 1981, she wrote to the STASI to complain because she believed that her main East German rival, Barbel Wockel, was getting more and better drugs because Barbel’s uncle was the president of JEV Jenapharm, the company that manufactured East Germany’s steroids!"

There's more - is this not the direction to pursue to nullify the 70's and 80's Iron Curtain marks?
tafnut
 
Posts: 26684
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: Lost at C (-minus)

Re: coaching both sexes to the WR in the same event

Postby 197hjsteve » Wed Jul 16, 2003 8:09 am

re running well after having a child, it was a taboo subject way back when, but Wilma Rudolph had a child between Melbourne and Rome... sure didn't hurt her any !!!

My sense is that having a child has no, repeat no, effect, good or bad, in and of itself.
197hjsteve
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: coaching both sexes to the WR in the same event

Postby Guest » Wed Jul 16, 2003 8:15 am

>Anabolic Athletics: A Brief History of
>Drugs in Sport
by Charlie Francis

"Dr.Hommel pointed out the difficulty in getting the
>real picture of drug use in East Germany.
>Although he was the personal physician to Marita
>Koch, assigned by the federation, he had no
>control over her drug program. Marita was already
>on record with complaints about her drug
>protocol. In 1981, she wrote to the STASI to
>complain because she believed that her main East
>German rival, Barbel Wockel, was getting more and
>better drugs because Barbel’s uncle was the
>president of JEV Jenapharm, the company that
>manufactured East Germany’s
>steroids!"

There's more - is this not the
>direction to pursue to nullify the 70's and 80's
>Iron Curtain marks?>>

Let me see if I have this straight. The IAAF, just a few months back, went out of its way to prevent Tim & Marion to have contact with Charlie the Pariah, and now you're suggesting that they should embrace his written-to-justify-his-own-illegal-actions book as legitimate source material for destroying a couple of decades of the sport?
Guest
 

Re: coaching both sexes to the WR in the same event

Postby tafnut » Wed Jul 16, 2003 9:39 am

You missed the point - Francis was citing an East German source as admitting the use. Don't shoot (or hate) the messenger. If they (EG) admit they used it, what does it matter who brought the matter to light, which, by the way, Francis was not the one who discovered it, he just quoted it.
tafnut
 
Posts: 26684
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: Lost at C (-minus)

Re: coaching both sexes to the WR in the same event

Postby Guest » Wed Jul 16, 2003 10:04 am

Not quite---Francis gave a blind citation to an East German. Somehow I doubt the book is footnoted as to where those "facts" came from.
Guest
 

Re: coaching both sexes to the WR in the same event

Postby Guest » Wed Jul 16, 2003 10:32 am

>we are not allowed to broach "that subject",
>but because of "that subject", I think Marion's
>the best. If and when she pulls off the 100/200
>double in Athens it's a slam dunk. But I do not
>think she'll ever get either WR. She can maybe
>run 10.62 with a perfect start and a 1.9 wind,
>and with similar conditions a 21.65 in the 200.
>
So she gets cheated out of WR's because of
>"that subject."

Is "that subject" wind readings that make no sense? If so, your 10.62 is only 0.01 off the real WR.
Guest
 

Re: coaching both sexes to the WR in the same event

Postby Guest » Wed Jul 16, 2003 10:47 am

>Speaking of German women, why is the 400 record
>still Koch's, when it is 'proven' that she WAS on
>drugs. Didn't the IAAF strip Ben of stuff he had
>done before Seoul? I understand 'not getting
>caught' keeps a record/medal, but once you're
>declared officially guilty, doesn't that mean you
>are stripped of your marks?

Here's the difference as I see it, as far as the IAAF is concerned: the Canadian government essentially asked them to retroactively DQ Johnson. They didn't actually communicate this attitude, but the Canadians wanted to get to the bottom of it and weren't about to be upset if Canada ended up with fewer medals and WRs. No other nation has put together a high-profile investigation of doping by its own athletes with no regard for the consequences of finding out the truth. In some ways I'd say the Canadians forced the IAAF's hand; I don't think Nebiolo really wanted to do it.

Because if we start going around and DQing everyone we know was guilty, then lots of different nations get embarrassed and some might replace their IAAF representatives, and the IAAF members simply don't want to give up the easy life in search of a plebian attitude of "honesty".

One other issue: the East Germans kept the best records and the nation was essentially swallowed up by an unfriendly rival. That's why we are able to find out what they did. We will probably never get our hand on any proof of wrongdoing by athletes from the USSR, FRG, USA, UK, or elsewhere, because either the information isn't there or the gatekeepers have too much to lose.
Guest
 

Re: coaching both sexes to the WR in the same event

Postby 197hjsteve » Wed Jul 16, 2003 10:58 am

you are correct about the 10.62 being the "real" WR if you assume the 10.49 was indeed wind assisted, rather than a 0.0 wind. I was there that day. She also had a legal 10.6something in Seoul in the qf or sf before the windy 10.5something in the final.

But sadly, my "that subject" is dear old drugs. The poor lady is dead and buried now, but I reluctantly think her quantum improvement in 1988 was because of.... " that subject."
197hjsteve
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: coaching both sexes to the WR in the same event

Postby tafnut » Wed Jul 16, 2003 1:15 pm

Here's the argument in a nutshell:
a. we're saddled with drug-tainted records we all want to get rid of.
b. the athletes are as upset (now) as we are that their government gave them the drugs.
c. the athletes have admitted it and suffer no recrimination, because the government told them to do it.
d. the government doesn't even exist anymore so there's no loss of face.
e. whoever pursues this is a hero for trying to purge the sport of tainted records.
f. the individuals at risk here were just following governmental protocol.
g. it sets a precedent that if you are ever caught, you will be retroactively stripped of honors.

I understand that some people don't want the dirty laundry cleaned, but now it's stinking up the joint.
tafnut
 
Posts: 26684
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: Lost at C (-minus)

Re: coaching both sexes to the WR in the same event

Postby tracknut » Wed Jul 16, 2003 9:08 pm

Regarding pregnacy and fast times. Irina Privolova was also a mother when she was sprinting. Evelyn Ashford was prenant when she set the then world record of 10.79 at Zurich in 1984. Fanny blankers-Koen wa a mother of two I believe when she went of the four gold medal run.
tracknut
 
Posts: 108
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am

Re: coaching both sexes to the WR in the same event

Postby tracknut » Wed Jul 16, 2003 9:11 pm

Tafnut. there's a book "Faust Gold" regarding the East German coaches and Doctors that were taken to trial and accused by former athletes about being injected with anabolics. Several Doctors recieved slap one the wrists ($1000.00-5000.00 fines) for the infractions. I don't think it did well for the not mothers of children with birth defects. An interesting read.
tracknut
 
Posts: 108
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am

Re: coaching both sexes to the WR in the same event

Postby Guest » Thu Jul 17, 2003 2:56 am

>you are correct about the 10.62 being the
>"real" WR if you assume the 10.49 was indeed
>wind assisted, rather than a 0.0 wind. I was
>there that day. She also had a legal
>10.6something in Seoul in the qf or sf before the
>windy 10.5something in the final.

Another round at the '88 OT saw Flojo run a wind-legal 10.61, and I believe it was the day after her 10.49.
Guest
 

Re: coaching both sexes to the WR in the same event

Postby Jon » Thu Jul 17, 2003 3:46 am

>Tafnut. there's a book "Faust Gold" regarding
>the East German coaches and Doctors that were
>taken to trial and accused by former athletes
>about being injected with anabolics. Several
>Doctors recieved slap one the wrists
>($1000.00-5000.00 fines) for the infractions. I
>don't think it did well for the not mothers of
>children with birth defects. An interesting read.

I read that book too. It was very interesting, but it spoke more about swimming than track and field. Nevertheless, still a very good book.
Jon
 
Posts: 9231
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: coaching both sexes to the WR in the same event

Postby 197hjsteve » Thu Jul 17, 2003 7:00 am

jsquire, we are probably talking about the same race.. the semi final I think.
197hjsteve
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: coaching both sexes to the WR in the same event

Postby Guest » Thu Jul 17, 2003 7:28 am

On the ESPYS last night Ben Stiller qualified himself for being a presenter by saying that before he was an actor he was an East German female swimmer!
Guest
 

Re: coaching both sexes to the WR in the same event

Postby Guest » Thu Jul 17, 2003 10:40 am

You said Seoul -- it was Indianapolis.
Guest
 

Re: coaching both sexes to the WR in the same event

Postby Guest » Mon Jul 21, 2003 12:31 pm

Back to the original question:

Anne Audain writes in John Davies' obituary that "John Davies had great success with many other athletes too. He is the only coach worldwide to have the male and female world record holders in the same event, as Dick Quax and I broke the 5000m WR's under his tutelage. " (From Runner's World Daily News)

Is this a correct statement?
Guest
 


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: aaronk, Google [Bot], lonewolf and 8 guests