Ovett vs Coe movie


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Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Postby deanouk » Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:14 am

[quote]I don't think Coe, even in his prime, could have beaten Cruz in the 84 OG. Coe's best two runs were solo world record attempts - Cruz ran his best time, only 4/100ths of a second slower than Coe's, in an actual race, in one of a series of very fast 800 races, that at the time they were run (84) represented the summit of sustained achievement over 800m. Apart from Steve Cram's 800 win in the 86 Commonwealth Games I don't think there's been an 800 runner to equal (or surpass) the 84 model Cruz other than Rudisha.[quote)


I agree that the series Cruz put together at the Olympics in 84 was the most impressive I've seen in a Championship, especially as there were 4 rounds rather than the normal 3.

If you read his various biographies, then you'll see that he stated neither of his world record runs at 800m were planned record attempts. The Oslo race was the first after his finals and he was just hoping for a fast time. It was a 'race' also, with Boit in the field, and just because he won by the proverbial mile does not detract that this was a big meet and first and foremost a race.

His Florence run was also not a record attempt. It was early June and he's always planned to have a go at the WR in Oslo in July. Again, an unexpected time and result. I have spoken to Coe about this race and he stated catergorically that Konchellah had not been asked to go out so fast. He was in fact a 400 guy at the time, and obviously got carried away on the first lap. Note he also finished the race, not dropping out as allocated rabbits usually do at the bell and even forcing Coe to run wide on the bend, costing him a couple of tenths.
I have no doubt that Coe would have been in better form a month or so later. No one as meticulously planned as the Coes were are going to want to reach a peak in early June, especially with a planned race with Ovett over a Mile in Brussels in lat August and the World Cup in September.
I asked him in person last year what he thought he could have run in 81 had he chased the record later in the season and he said 1:41.2.

The series Cruz put together post LA in 84 was also phenomenal, and of course they were high class fields, but make no mistake, each was a carefully orchestrated record attempt. He had made it known he was after Coe's record, and despite 3 valient efforts with rabbits and people like Koskei and Gray pushing him relatively close, he didn't quite break Coe's time, which was more of a solo effort. In his 1:41.77 run in Cologne, Cruz had a rabbit infront of him until almost 600m (about 550m) with Koskei only a few strides down. That is far more of an incentive to maintain pace and get the best out of yourself than being 40m + in front of the rest of the field.
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Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Postby deanouk » Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:16 am

Championship running is quite different from a one off run, I grant you, but it is a fact that Coe had not had the greatest of build ups to LA, and was not quite at his career best of 81, as training times implicated. All things considered, he did pretty well to hold Cruz to 4m, especially as he had run wider than Cruz throughout the race.

I respect your opinion but disagree. In a 1 off race between Coe in 81 and Cruz in 84, I think Coe would win. In a championship scenario I'm not as certain.

Cram's 86 run, as majestic as it was, was more of a 1 off circuit race than a championship series, considering the heat was in about 1:51 and there was 3 days between semi and final. It's almost impossible to compare this with Cruz's efforts in LA, which was much more intense.

Cruz certainly wasn't in his 84 form when he faced Cram in Zurich 85, and Cram was in the best form of his life. Yet Cruz ran him close. I don't see Cram ever possessing enough 400 speed to concern the likes of Cruz, Coe, Kipketer and Rudisha at their best. He's said himself that he was at his absolute limit in Zurich 85 (1:42.88), where not only did he run pretty even splits (51.0, 51.8), which he always advocated as the best way of running 800m, but also got almost 700m of drafting from Cruz in front of him.

Cram had a lifetime pb of 48.1 for 400 in a tt in the summer of 85, which is why he never ran faster than 51 flat on the first lap. Any faster and the wheels would have fallen off in the home straight. Coe, Cruz, Kipketer and Rudisha were all 45/46 second men.
And of course Coe beat Cram a month later in Stuttgart, when Cram was supposedly in the form of his life.
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Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Postby jmd » Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:52 am

Very nice and interesting post !
Thank you Deanouk and all the posters.

I also think that a more healthy, confident and... lucky Coe
would have won in 78, 80, 82 and surely in 84 !

I just have looked at the Stuttgart video of 1986, what a marvelous race !
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Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Postby eldanielfire » Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:03 pm

liuxuan wrote:my dad days that ovett was more of a working class hero, while coe was more to middle class taste!

makes sense considering seb went onto become a Tory MP, not his best feature I have to say!



Coe was as working class than Ovett. Grew up in Sheffield, son of a factory worker in Sheffield steel. Grew up helping his dad out in the factory.
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Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Postby gh » Wed Jan 15, 2014 7:00 am

Coe's father may have been employed by a factory, but as an engineer, I think "factory worker" probably a bit of a stretch as it relates to the working class.
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Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Postby eldanielfire » Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:03 pm

gh wrote:Coe's father may have been employed by a factory, but as an engineer, I think "factory worker" probably a bit of a stretch as it relates to the working class.


Back then it was still very much working class. He was still making steel and the family didn't have money to their name.
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Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Postby John G » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:46 pm

Utter nonsense. Coe was firmly middle class. His Dad was highly educated (working class boy with scholarship to Westminster) and he had managerial jobs throughout Seb's life. His Mum was from Kensington and went to bloody RADA.
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Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Postby John G » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:52 pm

Page 23 of his autobiography includes the info that when they moved to Sheffield his dad was 'running a cutlery factory' and they owned a detached three storey house in 'a well heeled area'.
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Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Postby gh » Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:41 pm

phew! glad to hear they didn't make a Lord out of some guttersnipe!
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Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Postby gh » Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:43 pm

John G wrote:….His Mum was from Kensington and went to bloody RADA.


This is a wondrous coincidence. Being an ignorant colonial I had to google RADA (to discover, I assume Royal Academy of Dramatic Art). But the first thing that comes up on the search page is Rada Cutlery!
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Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Postby user4 » Sat Jan 18, 2014 10:13 am

The thought of a 3 hour big screen epic saga on the colossal eternal story of two self absorbed athletes with pampered hypersized egos and all the attendant media drama of teen idols has us itching with anticipation ! Let the 20million dollar fight for the movie rights begin in hollywood !
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Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Postby John G » Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:05 pm

gh wrote:phew! glad to hear they didn't make a Lord out of some guttersnipe!


Ever heard of Lord sugar. :lol:
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Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Postby deanouk » Sun Jan 19, 2014 7:00 am

John G wrote:Utter nonsense. Coe was firmly middle class. His Dad was highly educated (working class boy with scholarship to Westminster) and he had managerial jobs throughout Seb's life. His Mum was from Kensington and went to bloody RADA.


What is this obsession with class! What actually represented a 'working' or 'middle' class life/background?
Coe's dad was born and raised in Fulham in a 2 up 2 down terraced house. He was clever, and qualified as an engineer. He 'worked' hard to get to that position. His background was hardly privileged.
Coe junior would have had a comfortable childhood, but it was not privileged. He failed his 11 plus exams and went to a secondary modern comprehensive, not the sort of education one would expect for the middle classes. His parents did not send him to private school. Many uninformed people believe he was born with a silver spoon in his mouth, was privately educated and everything was given to him on a plate! This is what many associate with "middle class". Coe had none of these. He got to University and made himself a great runner through hard work. Apart from the year leading up to the 80 Olympics, he was also never a full time athlete; working or studying throughout his career.
In contrast Ovett was educated at a Grammar school, was an art student and then a full time athlete (with no job) from early on in his career.
There is no doubt that Ovett came from a more traditionally perceived "working class" back-ground, but he hardly had to struggle growing up and reaching the top. If anything it sounded easier than Coe's.

Both had pretty ordinary upbringings as they would have been seen at the time. Both were clearly very talented and both would have had to work hard to get to the levels they reached.
There are far more similarities in their lives than differences, yet most want to dwell on the latter.
The idea that Coe (who has become a Lord through bloody hard work, not family background) was a privately educated toff and Ovett an ordinary working class lad made good is a myth and far removed from reality. If the film goes down this line, as so many seem to want, then it will be an utter failure.
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Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Postby John G » Sun Jan 19, 2014 12:23 pm

deanouk wrote:
John G wrote:Utter nonsense. Coe was firmly middle class. His Dad was highly educated (working class boy with scholarship to Westminster) and he had managerial jobs throughout Seb's life. His Mum was from Kensington and went to bloody RADA.


What is this obsession with class! What actually represented a 'working' or 'middle' class life/background?
/quote]

Eldanielfire said Coe was working class and since that was factually incorrect the pedant in me decided to contradict him. I have no obsession with class. "What represented 'working' or 'middle' class" is actually not some kind of mystery as you seem to suggest but something clearly defined by hard-working Sociologists in many learned papers over the years. Regrettably, I had to read some of them and therefore am qualified to confirm that Coe was middle class. There were many reasons why I loved Ovett and did not particularly like Coe. Class was not one of them.
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Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Postby John G » Sun Jan 19, 2014 12:32 pm

deanouk wrote:I don't see Cram ever possessing enough 400 speed to concern the likes of Cruz, Coe, Kipketer and Rudisha at their best. He's said himself that he was at his absolute limit in Zurich 85 (1:42.88)


Cram was wrong about his limit then. The run in Edinburgh in horrible conditions, with no one to push him was worth a lot more than 1:42.8. I was there and it was the best 800 I saw live until Rudisha in 2012.
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Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Postby John G » Sun Jan 19, 2014 12:41 pm

kuha wrote:
deanouk wrote:The reason why the recent BBC documentary about Moscow appears to praise Coe more than Ovett, is because Ovett steadfastly refuses to help, advise or answer any questions about the event.


And this goes way back. The only significant figure missing from the great 1994 "Bannister dinner" in London was Ovett. I admire him tremendously, but honestly don't understand this "screw you" attitude toward the larger sport.


I think you misinterpret his reluctance to dwell on the past for a 'screw you' attitude to the sport. He clearly still loves the sport but doesn't indulge in nostalgia.

His ex-wife tells a great story about his daughter coming home from school in 2000, aged around 6, all excited because they'd been studying the Olympics and she'd learned that a man with the same name as Daddy had been Olympic champion. I know through a mutual acquaintance that he had no memorabilia form his career in his house except for a packet of photos mark Shearman gave him.
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Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Postby John G » Sun Jan 19, 2014 12:45 pm

gh wrote:I've talked to Ovett twice. Well, the first time wasn't much of a talk. He showed up at the '79 NCAA in Champaign (courtesy Nike, probably) and a mutual friend in England had said I should tell him hi. I introduced myself and said that so-and-so said I should say hi, and he in so many words told me to piss off.

But then we then ended up at the same dinner table at a World Cup function in Madrid in '01 and I've rarely enjoyed anybody's company so much. Much laughing and joking and telling of tales out of class.

I figured all those years in Oz had worked wonders in the geniality department.


I wonder if you were as charming in person then as you are now on-line. :lol:

Time in Oz had nothing to do with it. He had an intense dislike of most journo's but club athletes and fans all spoke highly of him.
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Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Postby deanouk » Sun Jan 19, 2014 12:58 pm

John G wrote:Cram was wrong about his limit then. The run in Edinburgh in horrible conditions, with no one to push him was worth a lot more than 1:42.8. I was there and it was the best 800 I saw live until Rudisha in 2012.


It was certainly an awesome performance, but it was made to look so much more impressive by the weak opposition. It was basically a one off circuit run, coming 3 days after the heat in which he ran 1:51. A very weak Championship. It certainly wasn't a patch on Cruz's 1:43.0 after 4 races in 4 days.

The Commonwealth 800 for Cram was run exactly as he liked to run them; even splits, someone in front up to 600m giving him drafting and all out for the last 200m.
His splits were 51.7/51.5. (25.2, 26.5, 26.4, 25.0).
His 400 pb was only 48.1 from 85, so he wouldn't have flourished off a 50 sec first lap. 51.0 was probably perfect, as he was able to maintain that speed longer than most.

The conditions in Edinburgh may not have been warm and balmy but they were hardly 'horrible'.
He has admitted that he was "all out" over the last 200m. He said at the time that he could hear the crowd going wild with 150m to go, and believed at the time that this was because McKean must be closing on him, so he went as hard as he could.
For someone with limited 23/48 speed, he wasn't going to run much faster than he did in Zurich 85.
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Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Postby rsb2 » Sun Jan 19, 2014 6:47 pm

Cram was very impressive indeed in Edinburgh/'86. In the 800, he pulled away from McKean, Elliott and the rest as if they were standing still. As stated, the conditions were not "horrible" for the 800 m. final. There was a breeze on the backstretch, but nothing like the headwind in the 1500 m. a few days later. Having said that, he certainly looked invincible on the day, and it seemed that he was capable of running much faster if necessary.
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Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Postby no one » Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:00 pm

one of my favorite Oly 800m was in '88 - pretty good race all around. Coe gets second. And Kiprotich comes from behind to win. Oh wait, Shorter and friend, Charlie Jones, get it wrong and it is Paul Ereng. And Ereng did come from farrrr back. "We have blown this call" "Oh my gosh". I talked to Ereng about this @ NCAA Regional XC champs and he just laughed. He also laughed about me giving his #1 guy (who had been sick for 2 weeks with strep - ouch) tips on the steeplechase. Both were preceded with me not knowing who either one of em were. ... Kiprotich ... Rotich ... get em all mixed up ... Open mouth

ps - bugged by the Jo - a - keem Cruz. thats not the pronunciation is it?
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Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Postby Rog » Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:31 am

deanouk wrote:
John G wrote:Cram was wrong about his limit then. The run in Edinburgh in horrible conditions, with no one to push him was worth a lot more than 1:42.8. I was there and it was the best 800 I saw live until Rudisha in 2012.


It was certainly an awesome performance, but it was made to look so much more impressive by the weak opposition. It was basically a one off circuit run, coming 3 days after the heat in which he ran 1:51. A very weak Championship. It certainly wasn't a patch on Cruz's 1:43.0 after 4 races in 4 days.

The Commonwealth 800 for Cram was run exactly as he liked to run them; even splits, someone in front up to 600m giving him drafting and all out for the last 200m.
His splits were 51.7/51.5. (25.2, 26.5, 26.4, 25.0).
His 400 pb was only 48.1 from 85, so he wouldn't have flourished off a 50 sec first lap. 51.0 was probably perfect, as he was able to maintain that speed longer than most.

The conditions in Edinburgh may not have been warm and balmy but they were hardly 'horrible'.
He has admitted that he was "all out" over the last 200m. He said at the time that he could hear the crowd going wild with 150m to go, and believed at the time that this was because McKean must be closing on him, so he went as hard as he could.
For someone with limited 23/48 speed, he wasn't going to run much faster than he did in Zurich 85.


I think this post is rather unfair. The opposition wasn't weak - McKean and Elliott were both world ranked 800 runners. The splits were fairly even (in fact a negative split) but that is a rarity in what was a very fast championship race - indeed about the sort of time Rudisha ran to win in 09, off a faster first lap. And if he was all out over the last 200, is it any wonder when he completed that last sector in 25 flat? That's a sprint finish by any standards!

I think this was far and away the most impressive 800 ever to have been run by a Brit. He ran 1:43 in a Championship (not in a paced circuit race) and looked unbeatable on the day. Only Rudisha in 12 has impressed me more, although I think Cruz in 84 was on a similar level.
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Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Postby Powell » Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:48 am

Rog wrote:I think this was far and away the most impressive 800 ever to have been run by a Brit.


Seriously? Far and away better than 1:41.73 :?: :shock:
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Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Postby Rog » Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:18 am

Powell wrote:
Rog wrote:I think this was far and away the most impressive 800 ever to have been run by a Brit.


Seriously? Far and away better than 1:41.73 :?: :shock:


Yeah - Coe ran his time in a paced world record attempt with zero competition. Cram ran his time in an actual competitive race and looked uncannily strong. I think winning a championship in a fast time is more impressive than what was essentially a paced solo run.
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Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Postby deanouk » Fri Jan 24, 2014 4:39 am

Rog wrote:Yeah - Coe ran his time in a paced world record attempt with zero competition. Cram ran his time in an actual competitive race and looked uncannily strong. I think winning a championship in a fast time is more impressive than what was essentially a paced solo run.


Really!? Are you serious?
Neither of Coe's WR runs were WR attempts, and I have that from the horse's mouth. Both are superior performances to anything Cram ran over the distance. 1.5 sec is an eternity at that level.
Coe's Oslo run had Boit in the field. Heard of him? Pretty decent 2 lap runner. If he couldn't stay with Coe after the first lap then that isn't Coe's problem. He put in a 24.8 200m from 400 to 600, more impressive than Cram's 25.0 in a race 1 sec slower.
It is also easier to run fast in a race as long as you have no obstruction. Cram had drafting from 200 to 500m in his Commonwealth win, and someone to aim at in front up to 600m. That is far more beneficial than running totally alone with no drafting for the last 400m. Cram went through 400 in 51.7, Coe was 2 secs faster in 49.7. Completely different ball game.
There is no way Cram could have handled a sub 50 sec first 400, not with a pb of 48.1 in a tt from height of powers in summer 85, and he is on record as stating so.
Cram's run in the Commonwealth was no more impressive than Coe's Stuttgart run, where he ran c 810m (worth more like 1:43.2 on the rails) in worse conditions (heavy rain) after a heat and semi the 2 days before. Cram had 3 days rest between the semi and final.
Coe's last 200m in Stuttgart was 24.8, running at least 2.5m wide. That's equivalent to a 24.5 on the rails as per Cram had in Edinburgh.
The field in the Commonwealth final was far weaker. Elliott had only just broken 1:45 (1:44.8), a week or so before, the first time he had done so since 1983, some 3 years prior.
McKean had a pb of 1:46.05 going into 1986, and his 1:44.87 run in Edinburgh was a pb. He had always stated that the Europeans were his target for reaching a peak, and a look at the splits in both races confirm this. His last 200m in Edinburgh was 26.1, whereas in Stuttgart it was a whole second faster, 25.1. And his finishing time in the Euros was a new pb, 1:44.61.
Cram had stated his intent from early in 86 that he would reach a peak for the Commonwealths, and 'hold it' to the Europeans. His only rivals were a 1:44.8 Elliott and an up and coming McKean who had not yet broken 1:45.
Cram's run was magnificent, but it was certainly made to look the more so by the way the race played out (even splits, lots of drafting, only c2.5m extra run on 3rd bend), the lack of real rivals and the fact that it was more of a 1 off circuit race than a proper Championship series with 3 or 4 races in 3 or 4 days, when they were run significantly below 1:50.
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Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Postby berkeley » Sat Jan 25, 2014 1:27 pm

deanouk wrote:
Rog wrote:Yeah - Coe ran his time in a paced world record attempt with zero competition. Cram ran his time in an actual competitive race and looked uncannily strong. I think winning a championship in a fast time is more impressive than what was essentially a paced solo run.


Really!? Are you serious? ...

Based on past posts, Rog is a well-known Coe-ophobe (for the record, I agree on a personal level, but the guy was a magnificent athlete and I try to separate the two), so I think you can take his statement about the superiority of Cram's run with a grain of salt. Thanks for lining up the evidence so nicely though.
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Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Postby Rog » Sun Jan 26, 2014 5:21 am

berkeley wrote:
deanouk wrote:
Rog wrote:Yeah - Coe ran his time in a paced world record attempt with zero competition. Cram ran his time in an actual competitive race and looked uncannily strong. I think winning a championship in a fast time is more impressive than what was essentially a paced solo run.


Really!? Are you serious? ...

Based on past posts, Rog is a well-known Coe-ophobe (for the record, I agree on a personal level, but the guy was a magnificent athlete and I try to separate the two), so I think you can take his statement about the superiority of Cram's run with a grain of salt. Thanks for lining up the evidence so nicely though.


"Coe-ophobe"? I've never been so bizarrely insulted! Get you isinbaeyeva!
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Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Postby eldanielfire » Sun Jan 26, 2014 7:04 am

John G wrote:Utter nonsense. Coe was firmly middle class. His Dad was highly educated (working class boy with scholarship to Westminster) and he had managerial jobs throughout Seb's life. His Mum was from Kensington and went to bloody RADA.


So education means you can't be working class now?

Are you also aware that the post war period RADA was famous for it's volume of working class actors? The whole period was actually Burton, O'Toole, Harris etc. The post war period was known for considerable work class achievements.

I suppose it's partly the ridiculous and fake class boundaries. Coe's dad was a working class communist who made a success of a factory in a poor part of the UK. Coe went to state school, had to help his father out in the factory and certainly didn't have any privilages not available to Ovett who was hardly disadvantaged as his mum owned a business. But the class thing seems to me to be something placed upon both of them and neither have backgrounds that easily fit into one or another.
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Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Postby deanouk » Sun Jan 26, 2014 8:22 am

eldanielfire wrote:So education means you can't be working class now?

Are you also aware that the post war period RADA was famous for it's volume of working class actors? The whole period was actually Burton, O'Toole, Harris etc. The post war period was known for considerable work class achievements.

I suppose it's partly the ridiculous and fake class boundaries. Coe's dad was a working class communist who made a success of a factory in a poor part of the UK. Coe went to state school, had to help his father out in the factory and certainly didn't have any privilages not available to Ovett who was hardly disadvantaged as his mum owned a business. But the class thing seems to me to be something placed upon both of them and neither have backgrounds that easily fit into one or another.


Excellent synopsis. Exactly what I was thinking, but couldn't put into words as succinctly as yourself. Cheers.
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Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Postby John G » Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:56 pm

eldanielfire wrote:
John G wrote:Utter nonsense. Coe was firmly middle class. His Dad was highly educated (working class boy with scholarship to Westminster) and he had managerial jobs throughout Seb's life. His Mum was from Kensington and went to bloody RADA.


So education means you can't be working class now?

Are you also aware that the post war period RADA was famous for it's volume of working class actors? The whole period was actually Burton, O'Toole, Harris etc. The post war period was known for considerable work class achievements.

I suppose it's partly the ridiculous and fake class boundaries. Coe's dad was a working class communist who made a success of a factory in a poor part of the UK. Coe went to state school, had to help his father out in the factory and certainly didn't have any privilages not available to Ovett who was hardly disadvantaged as his mum owned a business. But the class thing seems to me to be something placed upon both of them and neither have backgrounds that easily fit into one or another.

Admittedly there was never a universally agreed defintion of middle class in the 1970s, However, all of them included the level of educational attainment, home ownership and type of work. So, a man like Peter Coe was born into a working class family but went to a grammar school and on to further education before becoming a manager and a home owner would have met anyone's definition of middle class at the time. Ditto actors who went through RADA and ended up being millionaires living in mansions left the working class.

For my sins I read Sociology at University. Class as a topic has always bored me. But you brought it up and made a statement about Coe's class that is simply factually incorrect.
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Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Postby John G » Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:07 pm

deanouk wrote:
John G wrote:Cram was wrong about his limit then. The run in Edinburgh in horrible conditions, with no one to push him was worth a lot more than 1:42.8. I was there and it was the best 800 I saw live until Rudisha in 2012.


It was certainly an awesome performance, but it was made to look so much more impressive by the weak opposition. It was basically a one off circuit run, coming 3 days after the heat in which he ran 1:51. A very weak Championship. It certainly wasn't a patch on Cruz's 1:43.0 after 4 races in 4 days.



The conditions in Edinburgh may not have been warm and balmy but they were hardly 'horrible'.

stand by my contention that the conditions in Edinburgh were horrible (certainly relative to any other fast 800 metre race I can think of). My recollection of sitting there, freezing my bollocks off may not be worth much to you but look at the video of the race: there are puddles all over the track and the crowd are all dressed in coats and waterproofs.
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Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Postby Rog » Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:29 am

John G wrote:
deanouk wrote:
John G wrote:Cram was wrong about his limit then. The run in Edinburgh in horrible conditions, with no one to push him was worth a lot more than 1:42.8. I was there and it was the best 800 I saw live until Rudisha in 2012.


It was certainly an awesome performance, but it was made to look so much more impressive by the weak opposition. It was basically a one off circuit run, coming 3 days after the heat in which he ran 1:51. A very weak Championship. It certainly wasn't a patch on Cruz's 1:43.0 after 4 races in 4 days.



The conditions in Edinburgh may not have been warm and balmy but they were hardly 'horrible'.

stand by my contention that the conditions in Edinburgh were horrible (certainly relative to any other fast 800 metre race I can think of). My recollection of sitting there, freezing my bollocks off may not be worth much to you but look at the video of the race: there are puddles all over the track and the crowd are all dressed in coats and waterproofs.


That's my memory of the race too - from watching it on TV, admittedly. Those conditions must have slowed Cram down. But what's visual proof in the face of blatant Coe-ophobia?
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Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Postby deanouk » Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:44 am

John G wrote:stand by my contention that the conditions in Edinburgh were horrible (certainly relative to any other fast 800 metre race I can think of). My recollection of sitting there, freezing my bollocks off may not be worth much to you but look at the video of the race: there are puddles all over the track and the crowd are all dressed in coats and waterproofs.


I don't doubt it was cold, and it was not the most perfect conditions for running, but the term "horrible" is hardly warranted. There was no wind; look at the video showing the athletes getting ready. Their hair is stationary, their vests are still. It certainly wasn't raining before or during the race. There are no puddles on the track; a slight surface dampness in one place just after the start, but definitely no puddles.
They are running in dry conditions with no discernable wind for just over 1 min 40. A cool temperature does not slow you down to any large extent in such a short race.

Here is a link to the video: -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSI1ZPIvtu8

Now the conditions in the European final the following month were far worse; cold, rain and lots of surface water, and the performance there was as good as in Edinburgh. Notice how the officials in Stuttgart have the hoods of their waterproofs up, while those in Edinburgh don't! That should tell you something about the relative conditions of those two races.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0z2timGYvA4

Also, as I've said before, Cram's heat was run in 1:50 something 3 days before the final. That has to be the weakest preliminary requirement of any 'Championship' I can recall. It was basically a one off race, not a series of 3 or 4 in that many days. It is easier to run quickly in such a scenario, than having already run 1:46/1:47's 2 or 3 times in the previous 2 days.
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Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Postby gh » Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:42 pm

and just when I thought Downton Abbey was about a system of long ago, I discover it's alive and well! Thanks for the entertainment :mrgreen:
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Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Postby Bruce Kritzler » Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:36 pm

John G.,
I was watching the meet also. The backstretch stands were cold all week as the wind would blow through them. The final day we sat in the homestretch, and it was much more protected. Definitely one of the coldest meets I remember.
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Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Postby John G » Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:28 am

gh wrote:and just when I thought Downton Abbey was about a system of long ago, I discover it's alive and well! Thanks for the entertainment :mrgreen:

We never should have introduced sarcasm to The Colonies. Some people just don't know their place.
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Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Postby deanouk » Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:23 pm

Regardless of the weather conditions, statistically speaking Cram's run in Edinburgh was not that much better than his own performance in the Europeans a month later, when he came 3rd.
The reason why he 'looked' so much better in the Commonwealth final was due to several factors:
1) Relatively weak field in Edinburgh - no one in race faster than 1:44 high at time;
2) Race and pace set up perfectly for Cram to run optimum race: - even splits, no obstructions, only ran 3m wide. Compare this to the European final, where there were several relative changes in pace, he got blocked and had to check his stride on occasions, and he ran c.9.5m extra wide on bends.
3) He got c270m of drafting in the Commonwealth final, compared to only 150m in Stuttgart.
4) In Edinburgh there were 3 days rest between his heat & semi (1:51.42, 1:48.71, run on the same day) and the final. In Stuttgart he ran 1:46.54, 1:46.59 & 1:44.88 on consecutive days; a far more strenuous series of races.

I have analysed both the Commonwealth and European finals from 86 in some detail from dvd good quality recordings. If we compare just Cram's runs in both those finals we get the following splits:
Commonwealth: - 25.2, 26.5, 26.5, 25.0 (12.3/12.7)= 1:43.22
Europeans : - 25.4, 27.2, 26.9, 25.3 (12.4/12.9)= 1:44.88
However, when we look at the overall distance run in those 2 races, we find that in Edinburgh, Cram only ran the 3rd bend (400 - 500m) wide, c. 3m extra. Based on just the extra distance alone, Cram's run of 1:43.22 for 803m = 1:42.84 for 800m.
Taking this into consideration, his new 200 splits become: - 25.2, 26.5, 26.1, 25.0 (12.3/12.7)
In an ideal circuit race in Europe, an athlete would normally expect 200m of drafting from 200 - 400m, before normally running the second lap solo. Cram got c. 270m of drafting; despite running wide on the bend after the bell, he actually got a good 70m of drafting that one wouldn't normally expect in a fast paced effort. As each 400m of drafting is considered to be worth roughly 1.0 sec per 400m, then that extra 70m was equivalent to c. 0.175sec. Let's say 0.2. We therefore add this back on to his 3rd 200m split and now get a final 'adjusted' time (for extra distance run and drafting received) of 1:43.0 (25.2, 26.5, 26.3, 25.0)

In Stuttgart, Cram ran c. 3m wide on the second bend (200-300), 4m wide on the 3rd and 2.5m on the final bend, where McKean held the inside lane. So his 1:44.88 was for running 809.5m (and I'd add that this is a conservative estimate), which is equivalent to a 1:43.65 800m performance. With the extra distance taken into consideration, Cram's 200 splits become : -
25.4, 26.8, 26.4, 25.0 (12.1!/12.9). This last 200m is as fast as he ran in Edinburgh, and the penultimate 100m was faster.
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Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Postby deanouk » Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:23 pm

In addition, whereas in the Commonwealths Cram got 270m of drafting, where 200m is the norm, in the European final he received only 150m (200-250, 350-450). Therefore in the 2nd 200m of the race he received only 100m of the drafting expected. With a full 200m he would have been 0.2 faster. However he then received 50m in the 3rd 200 section, which would have given him 0.1. Adjusted accordingly, his splits were equivalent to: 25.4, 26.6, 26.5, 25.0 for an 800m time of 1:43.5. Which is just 0.5 slower than his performance value in Edinburgh.

So, the reviewed splits for both races after extra distance and drafting are taken into consideration, we get the following for Cram: -
Edinburgh - 25.2, 26.5, 26.3, 25.0 (12.3/12.7) = 1:43.0
Stuttgart - 25.4, 26.6, 26.5, 25.0 (12.1/12.9) = 1:43.5
They are very evenly matched. The discrepancy of 0.5 could be down to the fact that the weather was worse in Stuttgart (more water on the track), the intensity of the heats was greater, and he perhaps slackened off a touch towards the line when he knew he was beaten. More likely it was a mixture of all three. But the idea that he was in so much better shape in Edinburgh that Stuttgart is a myth.

I have done the same for both of McKean's runs in the 2 Championships, but haven't the time to go into so much detail right now. Suffice it to say he ran c 804.5m in Edinburgh and c. 805m in Stuttgart, although in the former he had only 70m of drafting compared with 150m in the latter race. The main difference in his 2 runs were the closing 200m in each. In the Commonwealth final he ran 26.1 (13.0, 13.1), but in the Europeans it was a full second faster at 25.1 (12.4/12.8). Although he actually covered the last 200m in a marginally quicker time than Cram, he was actually 0.1 sec slower in real terms; McKean having run no more than the necessary 200m, compared to Cram's 202.5m
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Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Postby deanouk » Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:30 pm

For Coe, he ran wider than anyone else in the Stuttgart final, some c. 10.5m, although he did have more drafting than Cram. His official 200m splits were: - 25.4, 27.4 (52.8), 26.9, 24.8 (12.4/12.4)
Coe ran c.2.5m wide on the 2nd bend (200-300), c.5m extra on the 3rd bend (he was in lane 3 for some of it!) and c.3m on the last bend. Taking this extra 10.5m extra ran (= to 1.35sec) into consideration, then Coe's adjusted 200m splits become: -
25.4, 27.1, 26.2, 24.4 (12.0/12.4) = 1:43.1
In terms of drafting, Coe got 100m (200-300m) out of a possible 200m between 200 & 400m, but then got unexpected drafting from 500-600m and about 40m between 650-690m in the last furlong. This brings his 200 splits to: - 25.4, 26.9, 26.4, 24.5 (12.1/12.4) for 1:43.2

If we just compare Cram's Edinburgh and Coe's Stuttgart 200m splits based purely on extra distance run, alone (ignoring the amount of drafting, where Cram received marginally more) we get the following: -

Cram, Commonwealth: - 25.2, 26.5, 26.1, 25.0 (12.3/12.7) = 1:42.8
Coe, European : - 25.4, 27.1, 26.2, 24.4 (12.0/12.4) = 1:43.1

I contest that Cram's Commonwealth run was not clearly the best Championship performance over 2 laps by a Briton in 'real' statistical terms. There is only 0.3sec difference between them in terms of speed, and the Europeans were a more intense Championship with worse weather conditions on the day of the respective finals. Moreover, there was a lot more bumping and boring involved in the European final, and more changes in pace, which is less economical when trying to achieve a 'fast' time.
Coe's last 200m was in essence worth 24.4/24.5 in a 1:43.1 race. The only other athletes who have IMO matched that have been Rudisha (24.9 in a 1:42.84 race in the African Champs of 2010; N.B he did not run wide on any bends) & Kipketer, 24.7 last 200m in a 1:42.77 at Monaco in 1997 (again, no wide running and paced to 600m).
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Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Postby El Toro » Sat Feb 01, 2014 7:52 pm

gh wrote:and just when I thought Downton Abbey was about a system of long ago, I discover it's alive and well! Thanks for the entertainment :mrgreen:


Perhaps not as alive in the USA: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/howard-st ... 76931.html
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Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Postby Rog » Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:35 am

It's just a shame no one thought to introduce an 800m on water - then Coe really could have shown his stuff, eh Deano? You'd have got 5 or 6 posts out of that one!
Last edited by Rog on Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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