Euro Athletes Of The Year


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Euro Athletes Of The Year

Postby gh » Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:37 am

pretty tough to argue with their selections of Bondarenko and Hejnová
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Re: Euro Athletes Of The Year

Postby 26mi235 » Sat Oct 12, 2013 8:45 pm

Well, Mo had a pretty good year too. So, there is at least some room for disagreement.
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Re: Euro Athletes Of The Year

Postby Per Andersen » Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:21 pm

26mi235 wrote:Well, Mo had a pretty good year too. So, there is at least some room for disagreement.

No room!
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Re: Euro Athletes Of The Year

Postby gh » Sun Oct 13, 2013 7:00 am

I guess my attempt to kick-start a conversation failed!
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Re: Euro Athletes Of The Year

Postby br » Sun Oct 13, 2013 8:50 am

Bondarenko's sole loss came against Barshim in Shanghai on misses (both jumped 2.33) and he avenged that loss with wins against him in London, Moscow and Zurich. His 2.41= 3rd performer all-time.

Farah's 2nd place 3:28.81 1500m makes him the 6th all-time performer, while his season's best 13:05.88 5000m at Pre also came with a 2nd place finish and was only the 29th fastest performance of the year. His only 10,000 of the year was in Moscow, but it was only the 13th fastest run of the year.

Farah's WC 5000m and 10,000m victories certainly outshine his season's performances, yet Bondarenko's 2.41 in the Moscow final puts him at the top of my list (he also jumped 2.41 in Lausanne).

Hejnová's selection was a slam dunk.
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Re: Euro Athletes Of The Year

Postby 26mi235 » Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:16 am

His 5000m loss was when he was sick; in the 5000m that is a substantial handicap. His goal was the WC double and he did that and then added what was one of the biggest surprises with his 3:28, a multi-second PR.

Somehow, I am not as impressed with a 3-second effort repeated half a dozen times in competition and where the 'inborn' hops is a huge portion of the outcome (much more than in any other event). Yes, technique matters, but when you can have a Gold medalist take that crown with only one year of jumping, we can see that a huge amount of the success is winning the 'lottery'.
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Re: Euro Athletes Of The Year

Postby ATK » Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:51 am

26mi235 wrote:His 5000m loss was when he was sick; in the 5000m that is a substantial handicap. His goal was the WC double and he did that and then added what was one of the biggest surprises with his 3:28, a multi-second PR.

Somehow, I am not as impressed with a 3-second effort repeated half a dozen times in competition and where the 'inborn' hops is a huge portion of the outcome (much more than in any other event). Yes, technique matters, but when you can have a Gold medalist take that crown with only one year of jumping, we can see that a huge amount of the success is winning the 'lottery'.

So Mo should win because Bondarenko chose the High Jump as an event?
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Re: Euro Athletes Of The Year

Postby Flumpy » Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:15 am

I had thought Aregawi was my choice for Female AOY (World,so obvs Euro) but recently found out she only ran 6 races all year. This tips thing slightly in Hejnova's direction but still that 3.56 makes me think Aregawi deserves it.

I'll make up my mind nearer the time.
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Re: Euro Athletes Of The Year

Postby user4 » Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:28 am

br wrote:Hejnová's selection was a slam dunk.


Agree.
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Re: Euro Athletes Of The Year

Postby jla » Sun Oct 13, 2013 4:05 pm

Flumpy wrote:I had thought Aregawi was my choice for Female AOY (World,so obvs Euro) but recently found out she only ran 6 races all year. This tips thing slightly in Hejnova's direction but still that 3.56 makes me think Aregawi deserves it.

Only 6 races all year???
She outdoors ran 6 Diamond League races plus the World Championships (one event, but three races) plus the Swe vs Fin match.
And indoors she barely missed the WIR and then won the Euro title by almost ten seconds.
So 8 meets (10 races) outdoors and 2 meets (3 races) Indoors.
Won all of them.
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Re: Euro Athletes Of The Year

Postby lionelp1 » Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:47 am

6 DL and Moscow. Sweden v Finland race we are told she ran is not shown in the top 182 names in the IAAF lists; an error or a funereal pace in in the Sweden v Finland joky race. Flumpy forgot to say "outdoors" but it was an oversight.
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Re: Euro Athletes Of The Year

Postby lionelp1 » Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:48 am

Mo for me but Bondarenko is "fashionable " this year. :)
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Re: Euro Athletes Of The Year

Postby jla » Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:02 pm

lionelp1 wrote:6 DL and Moscow. Sweden v Finland race we are told she ran is not shown in the top 182 names in the IAAF lists; an error or a funereal pace in in the Sweden v Finland joky race. Flumpy forgot to say "outdoors" but it was an oversight.

What more than 6 out of 7 DL and the World Championships do you expect from an elite season of a 1500m runner? Which important 1500m races outside of the DL did Aregawi miss? Her male counterpart Asbel Kiprop also ran 6 DL (however two of those non-DL scoring) and Moscow.
As for the Swe v Fin match she was a loyal team player helping her two team mates to bring Sweden maximum points by a 1-2-3 finish. In these kinds of matches you don't go for the individual time (she won in 4:16) but for maximising points for your side.
Isn't "Athlete of the Year" an award that by definition should take the whole year into account?
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Re: Euro Athletes Of The Year

Postby gh » Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:55 am

there you go, confusing people w/ actual facts again! :mrgreen:
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Re: Euro Athletes Of The Year

Postby user4 » Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:05 am

The really big story out of europe was Bekric.
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Re: Euro Athletes Of The Year

Postby berkeley » Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:10 pm

26mi235 wrote:His 5000m loss was when he was sick; in the 5000m that is a substantial handicap. His goal was the WC double and he did that and then added what was one of the biggest surprises with his 3:28, a multi-second PR.

Somehow, I am not as impressed with a 3-second effort repeated half a dozen times in competition and where the 'inborn' hops is a huge portion of the outcome (much more than in any other event). Yes, technique matters, but when you can have a Gold medalist take that crown with only one year of jumping, we can see that a huge amount of the success is winning the 'lottery'.

Huh ? I guess you're referring to Donald Thomas in 2007 ?
I don't think you can compare the intrinsic difficulty of events, it's apples and oranges. You can only use something like the criteria used by T&FN for overall AOY. Given that Mo has 3-4 events to compete in, I think Bondo is likely to finish ahead based on those criteria.
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Re: Euro Athletes Of The Year

Postby 26mi235 » Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:16 pm

I think it is widely accepted that the 'hops' in the HJ are the single most 'natural', inborn physical attribute in track and field, and possibly in all of sport. Thomas was going 2.15 within a few days, if I recall correctly. And, he was at best a journeyman, probably occasional BB player that was not specifically developing jumping power prior to his introduction to the event.
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Re: Euro Athletes Of The Year

Postby lonewolf » Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:53 pm

I believe Becca was a class/schoomate when Thomas exploded on the scene.
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Re: Euro Athletes Of The Year

Postby ZELLGADISS » Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:55 am

The winners were very sure.

Bondarenko won in Moscow and got(2 times in the year) 2.41, a height that we did not see in almost 20 years¡¡¡ in adittion championship record in WC.
Farah won 2 golds but with 2 weak times...

And Hejnova was amazing, won all her races and very good time in final Moscow.

Now in AOY will win Bolt and SAFP :wink:
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Re: Euro Athletes Of The Year

Postby Per Andersen » Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:42 pm

26mi235 wrote:I think it is widely accepted that the 'hops' in the HJ are the single most 'natural', inborn physical attribute in track and field, and possibly in all of sport. Thomas was going 2.15 within a few days, if I recall correctly. And, he was at best a journeyman, probably occasional BB player that was not specifically developing jumping power prior to his introduction to the event.

Actually Thomas is the poster child for demonstrating that hops is not enough in HJ. He has been a HJer now for about 8 years and has not managed to learn a reasonable clearance technique. He never repeated that 2007 and was never again ranked in the top 10 because hops is just part of the picture. Jesse Williams also has hops but he worked hard for years and peaked (so far) in 2011 at age 28. Same with Holm, hops yes but it took years to perfect his whole technique. You need more than hops. Same as you need more than raw strength in the Discus.
I don't know why Thomas is even in this discussion. No comparison between him and Bondarenko as a HJer. Yes, Thomas won the HJ in Osaka and Brathwaite won the Hurdles in Berlin. It happens.
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Re: Euro Athletes Of The Year

Postby user4 » Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:52 am

26mi235 wrote:I think it is widely accepted that the 'hops' in the HJ are the single most 'natural', inborn physical attribute in track and field, and possibly in all of sport. Thomas was going 2.15 within a few days, if I recall correctly. And, he was at best a journeyman, probably occasional BB player that was not specifically developing jumping power prior to his introduction to the event.


A "basket ball player that is not developing jumping power" is akin to a football wide receiver that is not developing foot speed or an MLB pitcher that is not developing throwing accuracy. They dont exist. Thomas had absolutely great hops before he started at the HJ.
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Re: Euro Athletes Of The Year

Postby 26mi235 » Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:35 am

Yes, he had great hops before, but he was not playing a huge amount of basketball -- the hops were substantially a natural ability. Hops is not enough to be the world champion (well, aside from Thomas) but it certainly is necessary and it is the biggest part of the equation. More than in any other event, HJers are born more than made. Distance running requires a lot of natural talent also, but a significant part of that natural talent is the ability to train a lot and recover, as well as the mindset for doing so (self motivation).

Yes, you cannot be the best without good technique, but saying that someone with generally poor technique who wins Gold medals does not illustrate the importance of natural 'hops' seems to be flawed (and I have great respect for that poster, clearly one of the most knowledgeable posters here).
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Re: Euro Athletes Of The Year

Postby KevinM » Thu Oct 17, 2013 9:39 am

26mi235 wrote:Yes, you cannot be the best without good technique, but saying that someone with generally poor technique who wins Gold medals does not illustrate the importance of natural 'hops' seems to be flawed (and I have great respect for that poster, clearly one of the most knowledgeable posters here).


What does any of this have to do with why one athlete is more qualified than another to be named AOY?
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Re: Euro Athletes Of The Year

Postby 26mi235 » Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:01 am

It is why I am possibly slightly less impressed by Bondarenko than others are. I brought it up in the context of thinking that other athletes ought at least be in the discussion. When T&FNews does their AOY I expect at least one of that esteemed panel to not have Bondarenko as their first choice and possibly to have Mo Farah ahead of him.

How would I vote; I probably would vote for Bondarenko but think it is not a situation where no one else belongs in the discussion. I also have not given it the sort of thought that it would take to be clear to myself how the ranking shakes out because I am not voting on the question anywhere of note.
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Re: Euro Athletes Of The Year

Postby eldanielfire » Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:39 am

gh wrote:pretty tough to argue with their selections of Bondarenko and Hejnová



I agree. The perfect choices.
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Re: Euro Athletes Of The Year

Postby gh » Thu Oct 17, 2013 2:31 pm

26mi235 wrote:It is why I am possibly slightly less impressed by Bondarenko than others are. I brought it up in the context of thinking that other athletes ought at least be in the discussion. When T&FNews does their AOY I expect at least one of that esteemed panel to not have Bondarenko as their first choice and possibly to have Mo Farah ahead of him. .....


I can assure you that some (too many for my liking) voters will give Bolt and Farah undue credit for being No. 1 in two events. I personally think of 1/2 and 5/10 doubles as just single wins.
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Re: Euro Athletes Of The Year

Postby nevetsllim » Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:58 am

I was initially considering Aregawi but her season wasn't as impressive as I initially thought (more of an oversight on my behalf). Her 3:56 was a phenomenal performance but I thought she had a few more outdoor sub-4:00 times on her resume.

On the other hand, Hejnova had more depth in terms of her performances (52.83, 53.07, 53.23, 53.32, 53.32) as well as going unbeaten in 2013.
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Re: Euro Athletes Of The Year

Postby 26mi235 » Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:29 pm

gh wrote:
26mi235 wrote:It is why I am possibly slightly less impressed by Bondarenko than others are. I brought it up in the context of thinking that other athletes ought at least be in the discussion. When T&FNews does their AOY I expect at least one of that esteemed panel to not have Bondarenko as their first choice and possibly to have Mo Farah ahead of him. .....


I can assure you that some (too many for my liking) voters will give Bolt and Farah undue credit for being No. 1 in two events. I personally think of 1/2 and 5/10 doubles as just single wins.


It is easier to come back from running 3 100s (the first two not really that hard) to run the 200s, again the first easy, the second controlled. However, not many can run the 10,000 and come back fresh enough to contest well the 5000. Still, the 5/10 are rather similar in a manner similar to the 100/200. And, of course, the high jumpers have no real second event to compete in, as there really are no events in the HJ body-type/strength elements.
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Re: Euro Athletes Of The Year

Postby berkeley » Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:19 pm

gh wrote:I can assure you that some (too many for my liking) voters will give Bolt and Farah undue credit for being No. 1 in two events. I personally think of 1/2 and 5/10 doubles as just single wins.

So, does it follow that if a distance runner wins the 5 or 10, and does not contest the other, he is less worthy of an AOY vote than a winning high jumper ? That's also hard to agree with, because it must he harder to win two events than one. It's a vexing question. Perhaps winning one distance race and losing the other might rate lower than winning the high jump. I guess the significance of the winning marks, and quality of the opposition, should dominate the decision.
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Re: Euro Athletes Of The Year

Postby jjimbojames » Fri Oct 25, 2013 4:15 am

Winning one distance / sprint is equal to winning the HJ or any other event. To win the 5k you're up against 10k and 1500m runners and to win the 10k you're up against 5k and marathoners - just because it's the same activity doesn't make it likely to win both - hence why we rarely see double winners. Those that do are simply better than their opposition and surely deserve credit for that - not lumping their wins together

In the 200m, it's normally the one that hasn't doubled (either in the 100m or the 400m) who wins - see VCB, Felix etc - what does that tell us?
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