on chiropractic [split]


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on chiropractic [split]

Postby Ned Ryerson » Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:36 am

Daisy wrote:"in addition to being a chiropractor"

That's all you need to know. So Gay has been busted for using snake-oil. What a shame.


If your problem is with chiropractors in general, I recommend you stop following all sports. I challenge you to find a single athlete of any quality who doesn't employ the services of one.
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Re: Looks Like It's True!!! - Tyson Busted

Postby Pego » Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:09 am

Ned Ryerson wrote:
Daisy wrote:"in addition to being a chiropractor"

That's all you need to know. So Gay has been busted for using snake-oil. What a shame.


If your problem is with chiropractors in general, I recommend you stop following all sports. I challenge you to find a single athlete of any quality who doesn't employ the services of one.


A chiropractor from around the corner here in my home town was a part of US Olympic entourage the last two Games. In the interview with our local fish wrap he boasted how he kept the decathletes in tip-top shape. They could never perform as well without him. They are everywhere. You can hardly see a strip mall that would not have a chiropractor's office.
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Re: Looks Like It's True!!! - Tyson Busted

Postby Daisy » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:06 am

Ned Ryerson wrote:
Daisy wrote:"in addition to being a chiropractor"

That's all you need to know. So Gay has been busted for using snake-oil. What a shame.


If your problem is with chiropractors in general, I recommend you stop following all sports. I challenge you to find a single athlete of any quality who doesn't employ the services of one.

Chiropractor and quack go together in my book. Their claims are exaggerated and often laughable. But people lap it up. Harmless, if it makes you think you're getting something for your money, but not for the athletes that then get caught with ineffective banned substances in their body.

As I think their claims are exaggerated I don't have to stop following sports. Or should I stop because the athletes are gullible?
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Re: Looks Like It's True!!! - Tyson Busted

Postby Marlow » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:12 am

Daisy wrote:Chiropractor and quack go together in my book. Their claims are exaggerated and often laughable. But people lap it up. Harmless

I haven't used one, but virtually all the people I know who have used them say the same thing:

S/he 'adjusted' my back (mostly through 'massage' or stretching) and it felt better, but a couple of days later it started hurting again.

As the patients DO get some relief (albeit temporary), I view them as very specific massage therapists.
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Re: Looks Like It's True!!! - Tyson Busted

Postby Ned Ryerson » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:16 am

Daisy wrote:Chiropractor and quack go together in my book. Their claims are exaggerated and often laughable. But people lap it up. Harmless, if it makes you think you're getting something for your money, but not for the athletes that then get caught with ineffective banned substances in their body.

As I think their claims are exaggerated I don't have to stop following sports. Or should I stop because the athletes are gullible?


Every athlete at this level sees chiropractors. Find me one that won't gladly hop on a table prior to or immediately after a competition to get some maintenance work done.

There are doctors of all types that make bullshit claims, chiropractors included. But they certainly aren't the only ones, and not all chiropractors are trying to sell you a load of crap.
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Re: Looks Like It's True!!! - Tyson Busted

Postby Pego » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:19 am

Marlow wrote:As the patients DO get some relief (albeit temporary), I view them as very specific massage therapists.


If that is all they did (chiropractic manipulation of the lower back), I could live with it. The trouble is that they don't.
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Re: Looks Like It's True!!! - Tyson Busted

Postby DrJay » Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:48 am

Pego wrote:
Marlow wrote:As the patients DO get some relief (albeit temporary), I view them as very specific massage therapists.


If that is all they did (chiropractic manipulation of the lower back), I could live with it. The trouble is that they don't.


There are some who do just that, work on the back and/or musculoskeletal systems and seem to do some good, maybe achieving the results via the same means as a massage therapist or PT, it's just called by a different name. However, when they start claiming they can treat asthma and thyroid problems and diabetes (and many do), that's when they are practicing quackery.

The good physical therapists I use (actually, almost all physical therapists I've ever been aware of) teach their patients exercises to do at home EVERY DAY (compliance with that is about zero) to maintain a healthy or injury-free state and NOT have to go back to the PT. I've never seen a patient whose chiropractor gave him or her home exercises (and I ask) to help recovery and prevent injury/pain. Rather, the chiropractors' goal seems to be to keep patients coming back whenever needed. This is not fantasy, this is reality based on 20+ years of experience.

Believe it or not, the medical director at the Olympic Training Center here in Colorado Springs is a chiropracter. Not an orthopedist. Not a physician with broad-based medical knowledge like a family practitioner or an internist. A chiropractor.
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Re: Looks Like It's True!!! - Tyson Busted

Postby Pego » Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:03 am

DrJay wrote:
Pego wrote:
Marlow wrote:As the patients DO get some relief (albeit temporary), I view them as very specific massage therapists.


If that is all they did (chiropractic manipulation of the lower back), I could live with it. The trouble is that they don't.


There are some who do just that, work on the back and/or musculoskeletal systems and seem to do some good, maybe achieving the results via the same means as a massage therapist or PT, it's just called by a different name. However, when they start claiming they can treat asthma and thyroid problems and diabetes (and many do), that's when they are practicing quackery.

The good physical therapists I use (actually, almost all physical therapists I've ever been aware of) teach their patients exercises to do at home EVERY DAY (compliance with that is about zero) to maintain a healthy or injury-free state and NOT have to go back to the PT. I've never seen a patient whose chiropractor gave him or her home exercises (and I ask) to help recovery and prevent injury/pain. Rather, the chiropractors' goal seems to be to keep patients coming back whenever needed. This is not fantasy, this is reality based on 20+ years of experience.

Believe it or not, the medical director at the Olympic Training Center here in Colorado Springs is a chiropracter. Not an orthopedist. Not a physician with broad-based medical knowledge like a family practitioner or an internist. A chiropractor.


Years ago, a chiropractor in my town advertised (paraphrased, of course) "bring me your children with ear infection and I will cure them naturally by spine adjustments without those horrible antibiotics". I tried the County medical society to do something, they were afraid of a law suit. When I contacted a DA's office, I was informed by one assistant DA that in essence the courts ruled repeatedly that selling snake oil is a protected trade.
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Re: Looks Like It's True!!! - Tyson Busted

Postby DrJay » Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:36 am

We should note that while traditional medicine evolved over centuries, chiropractic was simply "invented" by a guy named D.D. Palmer, a magnetic healer in Davenport, Iowa, in the 1890s. The core "belief" (and it's nothing more than a belief, it has never been proven, and never will be because it is wrong) of chiropractic is that subluxation of the vertebrae is the root cause of most disease. Yes, medicine used to believe that blood-lettings and the application of leaches were useful treatments for any number of diseases. But starting in the late 1800s, and led by men like Sir William Osler, medicine moved steadily into the scientific realm, with careful and rational observation of cause and effect leading to advances in diagnosis and treatment. Studies, both clinical and in the lab, using appropriate scientific methods to prove or disprove hypotheses about disease and treatment, became the norm. My grandfather and his colleagues were doing, among other things, studies of cardiac output, pioneering a dye-dilution technique that was novel and ground-breaking, circa 1930, and publishing results in scientific journals. I really doubt if chiropractic was doing anything like that then, or even, say forty or fifty years later. We should use real evidence, science, to guide us in these matters, not simply whimsy, otherwise harm may be done with no potential benefit.
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Re: Looks Like It's True!!! - Tyson Busted

Postby bambam » Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:17 am

Like Pego and DrJay said there are some really bad chiropractors out there who purport to be able to cure anything. But in orthopaedics we do refer to them. As a shoulder specialist, I see a lot of neck problems, because the two overlap so much, and I send patients to chiropractors with some frequency and I know my spine surgery partners do so as well. Having said that, we know who the good ones are, and we have a limited referral base that we use. Those are the ones that also refer to us and know their limitations. Our back-and-forth relationship with these chiropractors has been quite good, and I think helpful to our patients.

Also, seconding what someone else said, when I played pro golf I did use a chiropractor occasionally, usually for some neck issues I would get from time-to-time. Lots of athletes do use them. The trick is knowing who the good ones are.
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Re: Looks Like It's True!!! - Tyson Busted

Postby smc » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:44 am

Pego wrote:
DrJay wrote:
Pego wrote:
Marlow wrote:As the patients DO get some relief (albeit temporary), I view them as very specific massage therapists.


If that is all they did (chiropractic manipulation of the lower back), I could live with it. The trouble is that they don't.


There are some who do just that, work on the back and/or musculoskeletal systems and seem to do some good, maybe achieving the results via the same means as a massage therapist or PT, it's just called by a different name. However, when they start claiming they can treat asthma and thyroid problems and diabetes (and many do), that's when they are practicing quackery.

The good physical therapists I use (actually, almost all physical therapists I've ever been aware of) teach their patients exercises to do at home EVERY DAY (compliance with that is about zero) to maintain a healthy or injury-free state and NOT have to go back to the PT. I've never seen a patient whose chiropractor gave him or her home exercises (and I ask) to help recovery and prevent injury/pain. Rather, the chiropractors' goal seems to be to keep patients coming back whenever needed. This is not fantasy, this is reality based on 20+ years of experience.

Believe it or not, the medical director at the Olympic Training Center here in Colorado Springs is a chiropracter. Not an orthopedist. Not a physician with broad-based medical knowledge like a family practitioner or an internist. A chiropractor.


Years ago, a chiropractor in my town advertised (paraphrased, of course) "bring me your children with ear infection and I will cure them naturally by spine adjustments without those horrible antibiotics". I tried the County medical society to do something, they were afraid of a law suit. When I contacted a DA's office, I was informed by one assistant DA that in essence the courts ruled repeatedly that selling snake oil is a protected trade.


Timely. Just watched this for the umpteenth time the other night:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sh0wr7HH8Y
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Re: Looks Like It's True!!! - Tyson Busted

Postby Pego » Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:31 pm

bambam wrote:Like Pego and DrJay said there are some really bad chiropractors out there who purport to be able to cure anything. But in orthopaedics we do refer to them. As a shoulder specialist, I see a lot of neck problems, because the two overlap so much, and I send patients to chiropractors with some frequency and I know my spine surgery partners do so as well. Having said that, we know who the good ones are, and we have a limited referral base that we use. Those are the ones that also refer to us and know their limitations. Our back-and-forth relationship with these chiropractors has been quite good, and I think helpful to our patients.

Also, seconding what someone else said, when I played pro golf I did use a chiropractor occasionally, usually for some neck issues I would get from time-to-time. Lots of athletes do use them. The trick is knowing who the good ones are.


About three years ago we had a case of vertebral artery dissection caused by cervical manipulation resulting in a Wallenberg's syndrome. I would disagree with any endorsement of that practice. Benefits of a temporary pain relief (debatable in itself) is just not worth the risks of a brain stem stroke.
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Re: on chiropractic [split]

Postby El Toro » Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:23 am

Like bambam, I have used chiropractors to good effect in the past but have never subscribed to the freaky underpinnings.

The problems with most alternative therapies is that they start with a kernel of scientific truth (colour can affect emotion) and then extrapolate that to bizarre degrees (colour therapy can cure cancer).

edit to add:

Timely coverage on Australian Broadcasting Corporation of chiropractors (with bonus of Dr Maryanne Demasi);
http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/3801081.htm
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Re: on chiropractic [split]

Postby polevaultpower » Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:58 pm

I have personally used a chiropractor who also gave me exercises to do at home to help keep my back in good alignment.

When I was in college, I was near a chiropractic school, and could get adjusted twice a week for $5 per visit. My lower back (which has been painful and tight for the past 15 years thanks to a childhood spent in gymnastics) has never felt better than it did those days. If money was no object, I would see a chiropractor and a massage therapist weekly.

I agree that most chiropractors push the supplements too hard, as well as making too many claims about being able to treat problems not related to the spine or other joints.
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Re: on chiropractic [split]

Postby cladthin » Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:10 pm

Having had some athletes choose to see chiropractors over the years, (as was mentioned earlier) the issue that often arises is the adjustments are useful but the lack of possible homework exercises (corrective measures) rarely seems to come from such visits. Therefore, the endless cycle of frequent (as insurance or family finances would permit) return visits starts. This is where (again as previously mentioned) a physical therapist or better yet the uncommon to the U.S. physiotherapist is often more helpful in that they can often help to find a solutions to underlying causes rather than the quick fix/adjustment.
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Re: on chiropractic [split]

Postby americantrackfan » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:15 pm

occasionally visit a chiropractor nearby, he has a reputation for being good with athletes and rec-runners in general, does not practice quackery that i know of, although i have definitely seen a lot of advertisements making ridiculous claims from other chiros
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Re: on chiropractic [split]

Postby DrJay » Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:13 pm

Glad the discussion has been pretty rational and well-balanced. :)
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