5 More Jamaican positives [and now Damar Robinson]


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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives? [Simpson & Powell?]

Postby Tuariki » Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:20 pm

26mi235 wrote:
TrackTeacher_AP wrote:
26mi235 wrote:
TrackTeacher_AP wrote:Sounds like this will be just like when Yohan Blake and Mike Rodgers got caught taking stimulants.. They'll get a slap on the wrist and that's it. I feel like if it is banned the punishment should be much more harsh however when you have already set such a lax precedent you cannot treat this case any differently.


Murder and stealing $5 are both crimes - they merit the same punishment? I hope you are never a teacher for my kids.


Wow you are really trying to imply that murder and stealing are equal to taking ped's? That is complete nonsense. The fact is they took something that enhanced their performance whether knowingly or not, and that may have taken money from everyone they compete with in the form of prize money, appearance fee's, sponsorships, or even race invites.


Didn't do well on those SAT word analogies did we? I did not equate either to doping, I de-equated one vs the other, just like not all doping positives are the same offense.

Oops. if your SATs are too low 26mi235, then you are risking your opportunity to be allowed to run for an NCAA school.
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Re: More Jamaican positives [split] [Simpson one]

Postby Kav » Sun Jul 14, 2013 7:49 pm

americantrackfan wrote:Well, I can now check off on the bucket list "Get a Jamaican mad at me on the T&FN boards." :D

I'm not familiar with Simpson's accomplishments (although I am familiar with the name). Can someone post her PB's and medals?


Wrong again on two counts. Firstly i'm not a Jamaican citizen and secondly i certainly was not mad at you. I don't get upset over message board discussions and you sir are certainly not worth getting upset with.

Quite frankly i have a serious distaste for people who make sweeping generalizations and you have been doing a lot of them today. So i called you out on them. Feel free to discuss anything as long as it is civil. However when you make generalizations of a malicious nature it does cast you in a negative light.

Back on to the more important topic:

I have an issue with the WADA listing itself. More specifically its emphasis on things of a similar chemical structure. That opens a very large chasm to sully someones character.

More importantly, who is this trainer and what exactly did he supply to the athletes?
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives? [Simpson & Powell?]

Postby 26mi235 » Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:27 pm

Tuariki wrote:Oops. if your SATs are too low 26mi235, then you are risking your opportunity to be allowed to run for an NCAA school.


I was the dumb one in the family, only hit 1440; wife outscored me by 150.
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Re: More Jamaican positives [split] [Simpson one]

Postby 26mi235 » Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:31 pm

Kav wrote:Quite frankly i have a serious distaste for people who make sweeping generalizations


agree

Also, the Italian police are sometimes rather aggressive, so not too sure that too much should be made of this.
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Re: More Jamaican positives [split] [Simpson one]

Postby croflash » Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:24 pm

26mi235 wrote:
Kav wrote:Quite frankly i have a serious distaste for people who make sweeping generalizations


agree

Also, the Italian police are sometimes rather aggressive, so not too sure that too much should be made of this.


I don't like generalizations either, but maybe it is time to accept that some performances just aren't humanly possible without the help of doctors and PEDs. If we are honest, many of us suspect this anyway. I really wonder what would happen if all drugs were cleared, maybe this would actually be progress at this point. The anti-doping efforts over the last decades haven't led to anything. A philosophical debate about the positives and negatives of legalizing doping would be endless.
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby Stooges » Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:46 am

Susanna Kallur Is not happy (free translation).
"Idiots. Powell, Gatlin, Gay, VCB, Simpson and Co. Give the bastards a litetime ban so I don´t ever have to see them again"

"When I took the WC record It was with home cooked food , milk and chips on friday nights. And ofcourse tacos".
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby ldnbloke » Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:19 am

Stooges wrote:Susanna Kallur Is not happy (free translation).
"Idiots. Powell, Gatlin, Gay, VCB, Simpson and Co. Give the bastards a litetime ban so I don´t ever have to see them again"

"When I took the WC record It was with home cooked food , milk and chips on friday nights. And ofcourse tacos".

Just became a big fan of S Kallur.
Stimulants ( why do they need them?), acne but no TUE, 'water tablets in a cream' , looking like they have developed acromegaly in the winter beire their breakthrough season, such severe asthmatics that they need heavy doses of step 4 asthma treatment ( in which case why did they pass their medical to be cleared for elite sports?)
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Re: More Jamaican positives [split] [Simpson one]

Postby batonless relay » Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:26 am

croflash wrote:
26mi235 wrote:
Kav wrote:Quite frankly i have a serious distaste for people who make sweeping generalizations


agree

Also, the Italian police are sometimes rather aggressive, so not too sure that too much should be made of this.


I don't like generalizations either, but maybe it is time to accept that some performances just aren't humanly possible without the help of doctors and PEDs. If we are honest, many of us suspect this anyway. I really wonder what would happen if all drugs were cleared, maybe this would actually be progress at this point. The anti-doping efforts over the last decades haven't led to anything. A philosophical debate about the positives and negatives of legalizing doping would be endless.

For someone who doesn't like generalizations you sure can't seem to stop using them (because some cynics believe that "some performances just aren't humanly possible without the help of doctors and PEDs" then we all should? And, that's the only way "we can be honest"?). I think differently: I think the clearing of all drugs would be even more "unequal" and even a larger step backwards.
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby zidan » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:12 am

Don't like those remarks from Kallur, as an athlete she should know better.
From a layman standpoint I just don't believe all drug related cases are deliberate from the athletes standpoint....Look at Powell for e.g. took something that is suppose to help and finish seventh at the trials.. am confused.
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Re: More Jamaican positives [split] [Simpson one]

Postby toyracer » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:12 am

Kav wrote:More importantly, who is this trainer and what exactly did he supply to the athletes?


The trainer is, as reported by The Jamaica Observer, Chris Xuereb.

A Google search found a LinkedIn profile for a Chris Xuereb, listing him as Athletic Therapist/Trainer at Healing and Training in the Toronto Canada area.

Further info on his profile stated:

*Speed/Power Coach
*Soft Tissue Massage and Treatment Specialist
*Health and Nutritional Advisor
*Coaches Elite and Olympic athletes (past and present) from Canada, USA and the Caribbean. *Specializes in Track and Field events and also soccer.

So that's the "who" (as reported at http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/sport/As ... all-player)

The "what" is what is in question.

I do know that the talk of new supplement(s) is factual.

I also know that there is not 100% certainty of the source of the stimulant. Hence the term "investigation" etc used in Asafa's release.

Beyond that I would be betraying a confidence.

Something to keep in mind that may perhaps put this particular case in perspective; if Asafa and Sherone had been tested out-of-competition as Tyson Gay was, they would not have returned AAF's even with oxilofrine in their systems.

On a personal note, that's what has always been puzzling to me about the WADA code. WADA says, in effect, "yes, you can use this when not competing but if we find traces of it when you compete then you are busted".
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Re: More Jamaican positives [split] [Simpson one]

Postby batonless relay » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:22 am

toyracer wrote:On a personal note, that's what has always been puzzling to me about the WADA code. WADA says, in effect, "yes, you can use this when not competing but if we find traces of it when you compete then you are busted".

And, that's why it should be banned all the time. MAKE IT CLEAR. WADA needs to make the rules concise enough to fit on a post-it note instead of this nonsense of office hours of a part-time post office (open on Tuesdays, but only every other Tuesday that has an odd number date...)
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives? [Simpson & Powell?]

Postby mump boy » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:40 am

Smoke wrote:So let us go back, do we all still believe an athlete is responsible for any and all substances in their bodies? This is an impossible burden of proof. We know that the FDA does not require all substances be listed. And it is not in nefarious products. I refer you all back to the infamous nandrolone cases.

mump there is so much richness in your post, I am chuckling. Glad to see you have come around :roll:


Which post ? i have so many insightful ones
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives? [Simpson & Powell?]

Postby mump boy » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:50 am

jjimbojames wrote:
tm71 wrote:
Flumpy wrote:
tm71 wrote: I don't imagine many people would want to be unable to work for 5 yrs (if their career spam is 20 yrs)


But they can work. No one's stopping them from getting a job in McDonalds.


Easy for any of us, armchair analysts, to say.

And easy for them to do - this is a real bugbear of mine! Track owes no one a living - whomever you are, however good you might be. The sooner people accept this and cut the 'restraint of trade' crap the better. If people learnt to accept this reality, they might be a little less inclined to find ways to stop themselves getting paid to run round an oval

Just because you're good at English doesn't mean a publisher should give you a job, let alone if you were caught plagiarising work. Simple.


What he said ^^
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Re: More Jamaican positives [split] [Simpson one]

Postby croflash » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:50 am

batonless relay wrote:
croflash wrote:I don't like generalizations either, but maybe it is time to accept that some performances just aren't humanly possible without the help of doctors and PEDs. If we are honest, many of us suspect this anyway. I really wonder what would happen if all drugs were cleared, maybe this would actually be progress at this point. The anti-doping efforts over the last decades haven't led to anything. A philosophical debate about the positives and negatives of legalizing doping would be endless.

For someone who doesn't like generalizations you sure can't seem to stop using them (because some cynics believe that "some performances just aren't humanly possible without the help of doctors and PEDs" then we all should? And, that's the only way "we can be honest"?). I think differently: I think the clearing of all drugs would be even more "unequal" and even a larger step backwards.


Sports are not equal to begin with because not everyone has the same amount of "talent". Which begs the question how talent should even be defined. Where do favorable genetics start and where do they end? Should we just accept this as a given or shouldn't everyone be given a chance? Is it fair that some have better chances than others according to today's definition of talent? Why should it be someone's birth right to be more gifted athletically than others? If this sounds confusing, I sure hope it does because I just don't believe anymore that the equation of talent, doping, training, dedication and how they relate to one another is accurately defined.

I used to strictly be against doping, but after watching all sorts of sports over the years, I'm just not sure that today's system is really the best, let alone ideal. Is the goal of anti-doping to prevent doping, to give everyone a fair shot or to level the playing field? If it is the latter, then this obviously isn't working right now. If it is to prevent doping without a clear aim, but because of some alleged values in society, I wonder who defined those values and whether they reflect today's world we live in. People don't care nearly as much - if at all - about doping in other areas of life, be it a student taking drugs to help direct his focus and allow him to work harder or anyone who just desires to improve his performance at work.

So what I'm trying to say is that I don't think doping in sports is the problem itself, it is our definition of values that make it such. It is a cultural, sociological and philosophical issue, not an athletic one. I'm not claiming that doping should be allowed and legalized for sure, but I also don't think the idea can easily be dismissed when PEDs are such a big part of sports and it's debatable whether anti-doping campaigns, raising awareness of possible health damage and doping prevention in general has made considerable progress over the last years and decades.
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby batonless relay » Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:19 am

Don't really care what you "used to be against", and your justifications don't amount to anything but paragraphs on the verge of a failing grade in a philosophy class; the rules are the rules and just because we're dealing with humans and human nature is not a valid reason to give up. It's tantamount to giving up on any and all crime because they will always be here. What else? Medicine doesn't always work so let's get rid of all doctors. The judicial system doesn't work perfectly so lets get rid of all laws. Politics doesn't work so let's get rid of all politicians. On second thought, you may have a point.

You're also wrong that it's not an athletic problem (and that is cultural, sociological and philisophical). Dead wrong. Organized athletics are about rules and it really doesn't matter if it's no PEDs or the uniform must match or that athletes can't have metal blades on their feet to propel them. For the record, I think PED education is stupid; it's a waste of money. The rules are the rules and they should be enforced. I don't think testing and catching athletes is a problem; and though the cynics are always arguing that everyone is dirty because the cynics couldn't perform on that level or coach on that level, the reality today is that the biggest names in the sport have been caught. Proving the LIE that testing is not designed to catch the big fish. They got Whale Sharks this weekend.
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:54 am

I made a comment about the Italian police sometimes being (overly?) aggressive. Given the story on the front page, it seems that WADA requested the action. The found about 50 containers with drugs or such things. No analysis yet of the contents, but this looks much more suspicious.
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby toyracer » Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:10 am

Paul Doyle requested WADA to initiate the raid. I have just been reliably informed that the only room raided was the room of the trainer.
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby toyracer » Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:30 am

On a Noon news report on Power 109, in a voice interview played on the station agent Paul Doyle stated that he is the one that hired the trainer for Asafa in May, that MVP did not approve the supplement nor had knowledge that it was given. The supplement was apparently given by the trainer directly to the two athletes. Further, Sherone did some checks of her own (he did not say with who etc) and received no information indicative of a banned substance contained in the supplement.
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby Jackaloupe » Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:44 am

"I believe we need to STOP ATHLETES FROM USING SUPPLEMENTS"

Whoa! Why the sudden leap from Stimulants (setting aside the obvious diff. from Steroids, HGH, etc.) to Supplements, which presumably include Protein concentrate, used post-workout; Glucosamine, and more recently Hyaluronic Acid, a natural component of synovial fluid, for so-called joint support; even Carbo-laced Energy Drinks.

The entire world of non-USDA tested/regulated Nutritional Supplements is having a hard enough time as it is; and, yes, it's as full of charlatans (O2-boosted Water, any diff. from aerated?!?) as any commercial sector. Please tell me you were only using "Supplements" as shorthand for stimulants and related borderline products (I'd posted on one of the 400mH guys, maybe Dai Green, prominently chugging a Red Bull or some such at the blocks, not unlike Skiers holding up their skis seconds after the finish), and not actual Nutritional Supps.
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby betterthanb4 » Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:48 am

toyracer wrote:On a Noon news report on Power 109, in a voice interview played on the station agent Paul Doyle stated that he is the one that hired the trainer for Asafa in May, that MVP did not approve the supplement nor had knowledge that it was given. The supplement was apparently given by the trainer directly to the two athletes. Further, Sherone did some checks of her own (he did not say with who etc) and received no information indicative of a banned substance contained in the supplement.



Thanks.

This is getting more suspicious.
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Re: More Jamaican positives [split] [Simpson one]

Postby Flumpy » Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:21 am

batonless relay wrote:
toyracer wrote:On a personal note, that's what has always been puzzling to me about the WADA code. WADA says, in effect, "yes, you can use this when not competing but if we find traces of it when you compete then you are busted".

And, that's why it should be banned all the time. MAKE IT CLEAR. WADA needs to make the rules concise enough to fit on a post-it note instead of this nonsense of office hours of a part-time post office (open on Tuesdays, but only every other Tuesday that has an odd number date...)


It baasically the same rule as drinking and driving.

You can have as much alcohol in your system as you like as ong as you're not behind the wheel of a car.

The obvious solution is not to drink if you might be driving anytime soon.

Personally I'd take a load of stimulants off the banned list and then increase the penalty for being +ive considerably.

Talking of masking agents, what is this oxilofrine used for and does it have an other more suspicious uses???
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby batonless relay » Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:23 am

Jackaloupe wrote:"I believe we need to STOP ATHLETES FROM USING SUPPLEMENTS"

Whoa! Why the sudden leap from Stimulants (setting aside the obvious diff. from Steroids, HGH, etc.) to Supplements, which presumably include Protein concentrate, used post-workout; Glucosamine, and more recently Hyaluronic Acid, a natural component of synovial fluid, for so-called joint support; even Carbo-laced Energy Drinks.

The entire world of non-USDA tested/regulated Nutritional Supplements is having a hard enough time as it is; and, yes, it's as full of charlatans (O2-boosted Water, any diff. from aerated?!?) as any commercial sector. Please tell me you were only using "Supplements" as shorthand for stimulants and related borderline products (I'd posted on one of the 400mH guys, maybe Dai Green, prominently chugging a Red Bull or some such at the blocks, not unlike Skiers holding up their skis seconds after the finish), and not actual Nutritional Supps.

Jackaloupe, I know it sounds reactionary but I meant what I said. Right now we empower each and every athlete to find out that: the supplements can be contaminated; that the supplements can be mislabeled and the supplements can be downright illegal with it stated clearly on the package. That "education" results in a positive test and furthering the erosion of any credibility of the sport. Why risk it? Take that choice out of their hands! They're only going to **** it up.
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby Flumpy » Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:26 am

toyracer wrote:On a Noon news report on Power 109, in a voice interview played on the station agent Paul Doyle stated that he is the one that hired the trainer for Asafa in May, that MVP did not approve the supplement nor had knowledge that it was given. The supplement was apparently given by the trainer directly to the two athletes. Further, Sherone did some checks of her own (he did not say with who etc) and received no information indicative of a banned substance contained in the supplement.


To quote Mandy Rice-Davies.....

"Well, he would, wouldn't he".
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby Flumpy » Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:33 am

batonless relay wrote:Jackaloupe, I know it sounds reactionary but I meant what I said. Right now we empower each and every athlete to find out that: the supplements can be contaminated; that the supplements can be mislabeled and the supplements can be downright illegal with it stated clearly on the package. That "education" results in a positive test and furthering the erosion of any credibility of the sport. Why risk it? Take that choice out of their hands! They're only going to **** it up.


Especially as the media doesn't know the difference between stimulants and steroids. In recent times the likes of VCB, SAFP, Perkovic, Powell, Simpson etc have all failed tests for a stimulant only for 'Failed Drug Test' to be plastered all over the papers.

When it turns out that it's a minor indiscrestion the whole thing is forgotten about but the damage has already been done.

It's of course far to soon to say whether this latest spate is serious or not but I'm becoming more and more indifferent. You don't fail a drug test from a contaminated apple or potato (Although beef is another matter). If you don't take any supplements you can't 'inadvertently' take a contaminated one.
Last edited by Flumpy on Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby batonless relay » Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:45 am

Flumpy wrote:
batonless relay wrote:Jackaloupe, I know it sounds reactionary but I meant what I said. Right now we empower each and every athlete to find out that: the supplements can be contaminated; that the supplements can be mislabeled and the supplements can be downright illegal with it stated clearly on the package. That "education" results in a positive test and furthering the erosion of any credibility of the sport. Why risk it? Take that choice out of their hands! They're only going to **** it up.


Especially as the media doesn't know the difference between stimulants and steroids. In recent times the likes of VCB, SAFP, Perkovic, Powell, Simpson etc have all failed tests for a stimulant only for 'Failed Drug Test' to be plastered all over the papers.

When it turns out that it's a minor indiscrestion the whole thing is forgotten about but the damage has already been done.

It's of course far to soon to say whether this latest spate is serious or not but I'm becoming more and more indifferent. You don't fail a drug test from a contaminated apple or potato (Although beef is another matter). If you don't take any supplements you can't 'inadvertently' take a [contaminated] one.

EXACTLY! We have to turn the perception tide; and, if in the short run it means throwing out EVERYONE who has been banned as long as 8 years to even those with a public warning, then I think it will be beneficial to the sport because it will signal, once and for all, that nearly anything processed could make you positive.
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Re: More Jamaican positives [split]

Postby eldanielfire » Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:50 am

beebee wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:I went a bit far there -eldanielfire


I say goofy things too man...no problem.

It's just a shitty day :(



Yeah. I never saw Gay or Powell coming. A shame I was banned after suggesting we both delete the comment.
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby user4 » Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:58 am

Im absolutely shocked , numbed and shocked !!!.. befuddled, dizzied and stunned by these outrageous allegations.
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:19 am

batonless relay wrote:
Flumpy wrote:
batonless relay wrote:Jackaloupe, I know it sounds reactionary but I meant what I said. Right now we empower each and every athlete to find out that: the supplements can be contaminated; that the supplements can be mislabeled and the supplements can be downright illegal with it stated clearly on the package. That "education" results in a positive test and furthering the erosion of any credibility of the sport. Why risk it? Take that choice out of their hands! They're only going to **** it up.


Especially as the media doesn't know the difference between stimulants and steroids. In recent times the likes of VCB, SAFP, Perkovic, Powell, Simpson etc have all failed tests for a stimulant only for 'Failed Drug Test' to be plastered all over the papers.

When it turns out that it's a minor indiscrestion the whole thing is forgotten about but the damage has already been done.

It's of course far to soon to say whether this latest spate is serious or not but I'm becoming more and more indifferent. You don't fail a drug test from a contaminated apple or potato (Although beef is another matter). If you don't take any supplements you can't 'inadvertently' take a [contaminated] one.

EXACTLY! We have to turn the perception tide; and, if in the short run it means throwing out EVERYONE who has been banned as long as 8 years to even those with a public warning, then I think it will be beneficial to the sport because it will signal, once and for all, that nearly anything processed could make you positive.


I think that it would be tossed in Europe; I hope it would be tossed everywhere else.

What you want to do is to stop people using mthods to enhance performance in a way that takes systematic advantage of other contestants. Making anyone who turned up a positive on a test that had possibly little connection to enhancing performance (mj, anyone?) to be guilty of an offense that bans them for a large substantial of their professional life is unwarranted. Have you forgotten that we are 'descendants' of Salomon? It might make some 'moralists' feel better, but it is not a good move for sports.
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby Jackaloupe » Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:25 am

OK, Thanks to clarifications/refinements of focus from BatonlessRelay & Flumpy, we can get back to the original focus: WADA Regs. for (mostly) elite T & F.

I stepped in when admonitions not just against Stimulansts but all "Supplements" suddenly expanded to general proclamations--with medical pros weighing in with the usual "good diet, sleep..." nostrums, while backhanding a realm that spurns theirs.

I guess "great to hear that from a Doctor" was the final straw. Well, Duh! [I'm of the Archie generation, but do enjoy The Simpsons ("Doh!"), esp. for the work of Harry Shearer, of Le Show fame.)
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby tm71 » Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:29 am

26mi235 wrote:
batonless relay wrote:
Flumpy wrote:
batonless relay wrote:Jackaloupe, I know it sounds reactionary but I meant what I said. Right now we empower each and every athlete to find out that: the supplements can be contaminated; that the supplements can be mislabeled and the supplements can be downright illegal with it stated clearly on the package. That "education" results in a positive test and furthering the erosion of any credibility of the sport. Why risk it? Take that choice out of their hands! They're only going to **** it up.


Especially as the media doesn't know the difference between stimulants and steroids. In recent times the likes of VCB, SAFP, Perkovic, Powell, Simpson etc have all failed tests for a stimulant only for 'Failed Drug Test' to be plastered all over the papers.

When it turns out that it's a minor indiscrestion the whole thing is forgotten about but the damage has already been done.

It's of course far to soon to say whether this latest spate is serious or not but I'm becoming more and more indifferent. You don't fail a drug test from a contaminated apple or potato (Although beef is another matter). If you don't take any supplements you can't 'inadvertently' take a [contaminated] one.

EXACTLY! We have to turn the perception tide; and, if in the short run it means throwing out EVERYONE who has been banned as long as 8 years to even those with a public warning, then I think it will be beneficial to the sport because it will signal, once and for all, that nearly anything processed could make you positive.


I think that it would be tossed in Europe; I hope it would be tossed everywhere else.

What you want to do is to stop people using mthods to enhance performance in a way that takes systematic advantage of other contestants. Making anyone who turned up a positive on a test that had possibly little connection to enhancing performance (mj, anyone?) to be guilty of an offense that bans them for a large substantial of their professional life is unwarranted. Have you forgotten that we are 'descendants' of Salomon? It might make some 'moralists' feel better, but it is not a good move for sports.


26mi235 i total agree. in this fashion we have to build tons of prisons for jaywalkers and red traffic runners since we will lock them up with the murders. i hate when some people (in this site and in other arenas) use their own sense of morality (often those people are hypocrites) to dictate policy !
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby Tuariki » Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:41 am

tm71 wrote:26mi235 i total agree. in this fashion we have to build tons of prisons for jaywalkers and red traffic runners since we will lock them up with the murders. i hate when some people (in this site and in other arenas) use their own sense of morality (often those people are hypocrites) to dictate policy !

In my case it is not my fault the amber light is not left on long enough.

But I also agree with 26mi235. I remember the case of Rick Demont losing his gold medal. An incredible injustice happened because of a bunch of zealots. Murder is one thing. Misjudging the amber light is another thing. The same sort of principle applies to anabolic steroids and the inadvertent use of tainted supplements.
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:47 am

tm71 wrote:26mi235 i total agree. in this fashion we have to build tons of prisons for jaywalkers and red traffic runners since we will lock them up with the murders. i hate when some people (in this site and in other arenas) use their own sense of morality (often those people are hypocrites) to dictate policy !


I do not think that they are hypocrites, and I understand the position that they espouse; I do not agree with it upon adequate reflection, but it is my (visceral?) response. For mump et al it is not merely a visceral response, it is one that they have thought about a lot and discussed often. We disagree on parts of the appropriate policy, but I do not expect perfection in others [ :lol: , that last is a joke.]
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby toyracer » Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:48 am

Flumpy wrote:
toyracer wrote:On a Noon news report on Power 109, in a voice interview played on the station agent Paul Doyle stated that he is the one that hired the trainer for Asafa in May, that MVP did not approve the supplement nor had knowledge that it was given. The supplement was apparently given by the trainer directly to the two athletes. Further, Sherone did some checks of her own (he did not say with who etc) and received no information indicative of a banned substance contained in the supplement.


To quote Mandy Rice-Davies.....

"Well, he would, wouldn't he".


It did corroborate something I was told by someone else, and a third party in the case of Sherone.

All one big conspiracy? A true story never changes, so common ground is expected, but then again the same can be said of a conspiracy... until someone forgets the story line...
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby tm71 » Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:52 am

26mi235 wrote:
tm71 wrote:26mi235 i total agree. in this fashion we have to build tons of prisons for jaywalkers and red traffic runners since we will lock them up with the murders. i hate when some people (in this site and in other arenas) use their own sense of morality (often those people are hypocrites) to dictate policy !


I do not think that they are hypocrites, and I understand the position that they espouse; I do not agree with it upon adequate reflection, but it is my (visceral?) response. For mump et al it is not merely a visceral response, it is one that they have thought about a lot and discussed often. We disagree on parts of the appropriate policy, but I do not expect perfection in others [ :lol: , that last is a joke.]


i dont expect perfection in other either lol ! the problem is what happens when people disagree about those parts of the policy. btw i just noticed all of this got moved over to the dope board.
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby Flumpy » Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:43 pm

26mi235 wrote:
I think that it would be tossed in Europe; I hope it would be tossed everywhere else.

What you want to do is to stop people using mthods to enhance performance in a way that takes systematic advantage of other contestants. Making anyone who turned up a positive on a test that had possibly little connection to enhancing performance (mj, anyone?) to be guilty of an offense that bans them for a large substantial of their professional life is unwarranted. Have you forgotten that we are 'descendants' of Salomon? It might make some 'moralists' feel better, but it is not a good move for sports.


I'm suggesting they should be banned. I'm suggesting athletes should stop taking them.
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby bambam » Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:48 pm

I know the excuse that everybody is doing it is never considered acceptable by anti-doping people, who feel anyone caught guilty of taking anything should be banned in this lifetime and the afterlife as well. The reasoning seems to be, even if the substance has no real PED function (such as been shown pretty strongly with HGH), that these are the rules and we have to follow the rules or the athletes should be punished.

Anybody out there ever drive over 55 mph (90 km/hr) in a 55 mph (90 km/hr) zone? Do we think all of the people who do this, which I'm certain includes everybody on this board, should be banned from driving for life? Or at the least for 2 years?
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby bambam » Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:51 pm

What I'm getting at, guys, with a bunch of these posts, is that the anti-doping crusade has gone over the line. When I played golf I took lessons from a guy named Bill Strausbaugh (go Google him for inspiration - his youtube video elegy is great - he died in 1997). Bill said something quite often, referring to the golf swing mostly, but a good aphorism for life in general: "There is nothing so good, so valid, so proper, that when overdone, does not contain the seed of its own destruction."
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby norunner » Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:56 pm

bambam wrote:I know the excuse that everybody is doing it is never considered acceptable by anti-doping people, who feel anyone caught guilty of taking anything should be banned in this lifetime and the afterlife as well. The reasoning seems to be, even if the substance has no real PED function (such as been shown pretty strongly with HGH), that these are the rules and we have to follow the rules or the athletes should be punished.

Anybody out there ever drive over 55 mph (90 km/hr) in a 55 mph (90 km/hr) zone? Do we think all of the people who do this, which I'm certain includes everybody on this board, should be banned from driving for life? Or at the least for 2 years?
But you driving over the speed limit doesn't hurt anyone else. Cheating athletes cost other athletes money, may even ruin careers.
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby bambam » Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:00 pm

norunner wrote:But you driving over the speed limit doesn't hurt anyone else.


Oh really? What's the biggest cause of motor vehicle accidents? Driving at a speed above the recommended level.
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby norunner » Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:10 pm

bambam wrote:
norunner wrote:But you driving over the speed limit doesn't hurt anyone else.


Oh really? What's the biggest cause of motor vehicle accidents? Driving at a speed above the recommended level.
And if you cause an accident while speeding you will get punished, you may even go to jail if someone else gets injured or killed.
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