Paris DL w 800


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Paris DL w 800

Postby donley2 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 9:32 am

Malika AKKAOUI MAR 1:59.70 1:59.54
Maryna ARZAMASAVA BLR 2:00.32 1:59.30
Justine FEDRONIC USA 2:01.67 2:01.67
Kate GRACE USA 2:00.10 2:00.10
Siham HILALI MAR 2:00.20 2:00.20
Alysia JOHNSON MONTANO USA 1:58.67 1:57.34
Fantu MAGISO ETH 2:00.25 1:57.48
Francine NIYONSABA BDI 1:56.72 1:56.59
Marilyn OKORO GBR 2:00.48 1:58.45
Sviatlana USOVICH BLR 1:58.11
Ajee WILSON USA 1:59.55 1:59.55

Can anyone hang with Niyonsaba? How will Montano and Wilson fair?
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby betterthanb4 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:49 am

Up next on the track.
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby ATK » Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:53 am

Did they show a flash of Ajee Wilson on the ground in pain?
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby tm71 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:53 am

Montano followed the rabbit too closely and paid for it in the last 50 meters
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby betterthanb4 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:55 am

Full results

http://www.diamondleague-paris.com/en/L ... 00m-Women/

MONTAÑO loses ground in the last 50 and Niyonsaba takes the win.
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby jamal00005 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:56 am

Im not to sure Niyonsaba will beat Savinova come World Champs. Savinova just has a knack for those kind of races and well with it being in Moscow I think she takes it
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby ATK » Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:58 am

tm71 wrote:Montano followed the rabbit too closely and paid for it in the last 50 meters

I disagree. I think Montano ran a pretty good race. Note that this is her 4th fastest time ever.
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby tm71 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:04 am

ATK wrote:
tm71 wrote:Montano followed the rabbit too closely and paid for it in the last 50 meters

I disagree. I think Montano ran a pretty good race. Note that this is her 4th fastest time ever.


Of course it was a good race, very gutsy but run out of gas
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby DCSIGMA » Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:07 am

I give montano credit for putting it on the line she is always breast to walls :D
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby ATK » Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:11 am

tm71 wrote:
ATK wrote:
tm71 wrote:Montano followed the rabbit too closely and paid for it in the last 50 meters

I disagree. I think Montano ran a pretty good race. Note that this is her 4th fastest time ever.


Of course it was a good race, very gutsy but run out of gas

She has the same race pattern all the time though....
Her going out slower would not necessarily lead to a faster time.
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby betterthanb4 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:25 pm

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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby booond » Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:24 pm

tm71 wrote:Montano followed the rabbit too closely and paid for it in the last 50 meters


Her issue was the rabbit was in the way. The rabbit clogged her path on the backstretch. With Montano in the race is a rabbit necessary?
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby aaronk » Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:08 pm

booond wrote:
tm71 wrote:Montano followed the rabbit too closely and paid for it in the last 50 meters


Her issue was the rabbit was in the way. The rabbit clogged her path on the backstretch. With Montano in the race is a rabbit necessary?


You hit the nail square on the head!! :lol:
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby TN1965 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:30 pm

PBs for Kate Grace and Justine Fedroinic.
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby tandfman » Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:24 pm

Fedronic makes the B standard and could run for France at the World Championships. Story link in T&FN home page headline list.
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby uakari » Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:39 pm

i'm sorry, not trying to cast aspersions on anyone's appearance, but i am surprised nobody's ever raised gender questions about niyonsaba????? i've watched her race many times and i still think she looks like a teenage boy out there. not as severe/clearcut case as semenya, but still... has it ever been raised? certainly if you do an internet search, it comes up empty, so i guess it has not...
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby Alan Shank » Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:50 pm

ATK wrote:
tm71 wrote:
ATK wrote:
tm71 wrote:Montano followed the rabbit too closely and paid for it in the last 50 meters

I disagree. I think Montano ran a pretty good race. Note that this is her 4th fastest time ever.


Of course it was a good race, very gutsy but run out of gas

She has the same race pattern all the time though....
Her going out slower would not necessarily lead to a faster time.


Physiologically, she is throwing energy away; psychologically, who knows? Maybe she has to run that way. She is going to get beaten consistently (as she already has) at the highest level. She is acting as a pacemaker for more savvy athletes, like SAvinova. I don't know whether she has ever tried to conserve energy early and see what happens.
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Woodland, CA, USA
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby tm71 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:58 pm

Physiologically, she is throwing energy away; psychologically, who knows? Maybe she has to run that way. She is going to get beaten consistently (as she already has) at the highest level. She is acting as a pacemaker for more savvy athletes, like SAvinova. I don't know whether she has ever tried to conserve energy early and see what happens.
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Woodland, CA, USA[/quote]

Good point. I think the 800 is usually won by runners that stay in the middle of the pack and try to run even pace, notable exception David Rudisha. we have seen most front runners types like johnny gray and montano get 3rd at best and the back of the pack runners like Symmonds and borzo rarely win any big races.
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby Alan Shank » Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:39 pm

tm71 wrote:Physiologically, she is throwing energy away; psychologically, who knows? Maybe she has to run that way. She is going to get beaten consistently (as she already has) at the highest level. She is acting as a pacemaker for more savvy athletes, like SAvinova. I don't know whether she has ever tried to conserve energy early and see what happens.
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Woodland, CA, USA


Good point. I think the 800 is usually won by runners that stay in the middle of the pack and try to run even pace, notable exception David Rudisha. we have seen most front runners types like johnny gray and montano get 3rd at best and the back of the pack runners like Symmonds and borzo rarely win any big races.[/quote]

Right now, SAvinova is the prime representative of the "hang back early" crowd. She is often last, just like Borzakovskiy and Symmonds, at the break. She is very confident of her race strategy, moves up when she needs to, and has that great final stretch. The difference between her and them is that she is the best 800 runner in the world, and those men are not. Borzakovskiy, of course, won and Olympic gold medal and his PB race (1:42.47), and he's won several other global medals, but he loses a lot of races, too. Some people seem to think that the only reason he ever loses a race is because of tactical mistakes, but I think that is nonsense. He has been ONE OF the best 800 men, but never dominant. Symmonds, in my view, is a notch or two below Yuriy; he's going to have to run a perfect race and perhaps have a bit of luck, as well, like one of the 1:42 types being injured or s.t., in order to win a global medal.

Rudisha, OTOH, is just superior. Since he failed to Q in Berlin, he's been mostly unbeatable, regardless of tactics, but fell victim twice to Aman in late-season races.
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Woodland, CA, USA
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby Flumpy » Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:25 am

All of this makes perfect sense.
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby 18.99s » Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:59 am

uakari wrote:i'm sorry, not trying to cast aspersions on anyone's appearance, but i am surprised nobody's ever raised gender questions about niyonsaba????? i've watched her race many times and i still think she looks like a teenage boy out there. not as severe/clearcut case as semenya, but still... has it ever been raised? certainly if you do an internet search, it comes up empty, so i guess it has not...

IAAF doesn't have the balls to disqualify anybody from competing as a woman unless they have an obvious penis or recently had one removed. So intersexed athletes, whoever they are, will continue to be part of women's athletics, and there's no use speculating or discussing the issue.

But if you want to find other places on the web where the topic is discussed, search for _______ is a man and you'll find something, depending on whose name you insert.
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby gh » Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:15 am

uakari wrote:i'm sorry, not trying to cast aspersions on anyone's appearance,......


Then we suggest/request that you not do it again.
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby booond » Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:26 am

Alan Shank wrote:
tm71 wrote:Physiologically, she is throwing energy away; psychologically, who knows? Maybe she has to run that way. She is going to get beaten consistently (as she already has) at the highest level. She is acting as a pacemaker for more savvy athletes, like SAvinova. I don't know whether she has ever tried to conserve energy early and see what happens.
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Woodland, CA, USA


Good point. I think the 800 is usually won by runners that stay in the middle of the pack and try to run even pace, notable exception David Rudisha. we have seen most front runners types like johnny gray and montano get 3rd at best and the back of the pack runners like Symmonds and borzo rarely win any big races.


Right now, SAvinova is the prime representative of the "hang back early" crowd. She is often last, just like Borzakovskiy and Symmonds, at the break. She is very confident of her race strategy, moves up when she needs to, and has that great final stretch. The difference between her and them is that she is the best 800 runner in the world, and those men are not. Borzakovskiy, of course, won and Olympic gold medal and his PB race (1:42.47), and he's won several other global medals, but he loses a lot of races, too. Some people seem to think that the only reason he ever loses a race is because of tactical mistakes, but I think that is nonsense. He has been ONE OF the best 800 men, but never dominant. Symmonds, in my view, is a notch or two below Yuriy; he's going to have to run a perfect race and perhaps have a bit of luck, as well, like one of the 1:42 types being injured or s.t., in order to win a global medal.

Rudisha, OTOH, is just superior. Since he failed to Q in Berlin, he's been mostly unbeatable, regardless of tactics, but fell victim twice to Aman in late-season races.
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Woodland, CA, USA[/quote]

Montano is Symmonds with a different strategy. She is good enough to get to the finals in a big race consistently but not good enough to win or even medal. Saturday she may have finished second if she didn't slow waiting for the rabbit to step off the track - why is an 800 meter rabbit running 600 meters - but she wouldn't have won.
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby Blues » Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:56 am

18.99s wrote:.......So intersexed athletes, whoever they are, will continue to be part of women's athletics, and there's no use speculating or discussing the issue.


Without any suggestion of who may or may not be an intersex athlete, at this point in time I'm one who doesn't think the rules regarding those athletes necessarily result in a level playing field. It's probably impossible to know where to draw the line so that there's no advantage or disadvantage, but reducing one's testosterone level to below the lowest normal level for a male (as the current rules require), still allows the athlete to have a testosterone level 4 to 5 times higher than the highest normal level for a female. I could be wrong, but that seems like it could give the intersex athlete a performance advantage.

I wonder if the IAAF would exonerate any genetically female athlete who was caught supplementing with testosterone, if her valid explanation was that she was only supplementing up to the testosterone level that the IAAF allowed for certain athletes she had to compete against.... :wink:
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby Pego » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:08 am

Blues wrote:It's probably impossible to know where to draw the line


I think that the lines could be drawn better using combination of anatomy and physiology (testosterone levels being some part of it, but taking a back seat to anatomy) instead of chromosomal structure. From what we know, there has only been one case lately that was a slam dunk and the alphabet federations capitulated to legal pressure.
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby Daisy » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:16 am

Pego wrote:testosterone levels being some part of it

I think that where the testosterone is made in the body is important too. If the testosterone is from testes then that is a problem. But we also have to consider if their body can respond to the testosterone.
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby Pego » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:26 am

Daisy wrote:
Pego wrote:testosterone levels being some part of it

I think that where the testosterone is made in the body is important too. If the testosterone is from testes then that is a problem. But we also have to consider if their body can respond to the testosterone.


That's what I said, the anatomy :wink: .
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby Daisy » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:47 am

Pego wrote:
Daisy wrote:
Pego wrote:testosterone levels being some part of it

I think that where the testosterone is made in the body is important too. If the testosterone is from testes then that is a problem. But we also have to consider if their body can respond to the testosterone.

That's what I said, the anatomy :wink: .

That's anatomy? :twisted: I'm pretty ignorant about what they teach in those classes.
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby DentyCracker » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:50 am

LOL
no disrespect meant Daisy
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby Daisy » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:54 am

DentyCracker wrote:LOL
no disrespect meant Daisy

:D I didn't look at it from that angle. I'm not THAT ignorant. :mrgreen:
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby Blues » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:52 pm

Daisy wrote:
Pego wrote:testosterone levels being some part of it

I think that where the testosterone is made in the body is important too. If the testosterone is from testes then that is a problem. But we also have to consider if their body can respond to the testosterone.


I kept things simple in my first post... The IAAF considers anyone who's considered female under law as being eligible to compete as a female, as long as they conform to certain rules and regulations regarding testosterone levels or androgen resistance. So androgen resistance is taken into consideration and if the athlete can show that she has androgen resistance and that higher testosterone levels won't give her a competitive advantage, she's permitted to have testosterone levels in the normal male range.

After multiple pages in the rules regarding confidential medical exams and expert medical panels, the athlete's eligibility to compete as a female comes down to this:

Following its final review of the athlete’s case, the Expert Medical Panel shall be asked to make a recommendation as regards the athlete’s eligibility to compete in women’s competition based on her reported androgen levels and taking into consideration any androgen resistance that she might have.

6.5 The Expert Medical Panel shall recommend that the athlete is eligible to compete in women’s competition if:

(i) she has androgen levels below the normal male range; or

(ii) she has androgen levels within the normal male range but has an androgen resistance such that she derives no competitive advantage from having androgen levels in the normal male range.

Androgen levels for the purposes of paragraph 6.5 are measured by the levels of Total Testosterone in serum.
Normal male range Total Testosterone Levels - ≥10 nmol/L

6.6 The burden of proof shall be on the athlete to establish, where applicable, that she has an androgen resistance such that she derives no competitive advantage from androgen levels in the normal male range and the standard of proof in such a case shall be by a balance of probabilities.
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby Flumpy » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:01 am

So now we're discussing a potential intersex condition, despite there being no evidence that the person in question has any such thing, simply because someone thinks they look like they might.

Seriously??? :roll:
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby uakari » Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:51 am

oh please, this from the poster who thinks top female tennis players are too fat and ordinary to be athletes?????

my question was simply, has the iaaf or any other authority spoken about niyonsaba being intersexed? i have not found any mention of that.
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby Daisy » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:03 am

Flumpy wrote:So now we're discussing a potential intersex condition despite there being no evidence that the person in question has any such thing

The discussion was in response to the general statement from 18.99:
18.99s wrote:.......So intersexed athletes, whoever they are, will continue to be part of women's athletics, and there's no use speculating or discussing the issue.

Not about any specific athlete. Threads wander, we all know that.
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby Blues » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:38 am

Flumpy wrote:So now we're discussing a potential intersex condition, despite there being no evidence that the person in question has any such thing, simply because someone thinks they look like they might.

Seriously??? :roll:


Didn't only one person mention anything about a particular athlete? I think it's pretty clear that neither myself nor any poster who responded to my first post were discussing the aforementioned athlete or any athlete in particular, but that we were instead taking an opportunity to offer opinions regarding the IAAF procedures or rules that allow (or don't allow) women with hyperandrogenism or androgen resistance to compete against other women, and whether those rules are medically sufficient to provide a level playing field for the other female athletes. It's not much different than posters getting sidetracked into a science related discussion on whether certain stimulants offer a competitive advantage (and whether or not they should be banned), in a thread where there's an earlier post suggesting that an athlete may have used a stimulant like methylhexaneamine.

The event in this thread (800m) is obviously also the event that's most closely associated with this issue, and is the event of the athlete who inspired the creation of the IAAF policy and rules. I'm sorry that the discussion offends you flumpy, but other than the post that mentioned the athlete's appearance, no subsequent post had anything to do with that particular athlete or any other athlete in particular. It's unfortunate that a particular athlete was singled out by a poster, but it was the mention of the condition, not the athlete, that prompted my posts regarding the current rules.
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby Pego » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:58 am

Blues wrote:The IAAF considers anyone who's considered female under law as being eligible to compete as a female, as long as they conform to certain rules and regulations regarding testosterone levels or androgen resistance.


To me, this approach is cumbersome and can get inconclusive quite often. Why not start with anatomy, then move to physiology/endocrinology?

Testes (1 or 2) = male
Ovaries (1 or 2) = female
All other sex characteristics are pretty much irrelevant to the issue of athletic ability and directly (well, perhaps sometime indirectly) related to the anatomy. There is more to the differences between sexes than testosterone levels. Even cerebral anatomy and physiology varies between the sexes.

As Sigmund Freud so famously observed, "Anatomy is destiny." :wink:
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby uakari » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:00 pm

is there an overlap between natural ("normal") ranges of testosterone between men and women?
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby Pego » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:04 pm

uakari wrote:is there an overlap between natural ("normal") ranges of testosterone between men and women?


During the reproductive decades of life, male low end is still many times higher than the highest females. Of course, we are talking about true females.
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby Daisy » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:20 pm

Pego wrote:Of course, we are talking about true females.

Are those values from the general population? I assume athletic women will be on the extreme end of the scale and it's possible that few are in those studies.

Here is one source I found with a quick search, but I'm not sure if the ages and athleticism of the study group for these data presented. It's also an 'amateur' web site, so I'm not sure how accurate the numbers are.
Dihydrotestosterone (DHT). This is a more potent form of testosterone that is metabolized by the body from other androgens. In men most is made from testosterone, while in women the main source is androstenedione (which is first converted INTO testosterone). Current research indicates that DHT is responsible for male-pattern balding and excessive, unwanted hair in both sexes. In males it is also responsible for non-cancerous prostate swelling (BPH).

DHT LEVELS pg/ml
Females (Premenopausal): 24-368
Females (Postmenopausal): 10-181
Males: 250-990

http://www.hemingways.org/GIDinfo/hrt_ref.htm


They have levels for other hormones as well as free and total testosterone. They also discussion some of the problems associated with making such comparisons.


Code: Select all
Total Testosterone
               ng/dl          ng/ml
Females       6 - 86         0.1 - 1.2
Males        270 - 1100      2.4 - 12
Conversion factor: 1 ng/ml = 3.47 nmol/l

Free or Unbound Testosterone
               ng/dl         pg/ml 
Females       0.3-1.9       0.6 - 6.8   
Males          9-30        47.0-244.0   
Last edited by Daisy on Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby Pego » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:24 pm

This table separates pre- and post-menopausal women, but not young and older males. I am nearly certain that during athletic ages, there is no male/female overlap.
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