Why can female tennis players get away with being ..


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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby Marlow » Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:31 pm

Good answer, jhc!
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby Dutra5 » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:24 pm

TN1965 wrote:
Pego wrote:Richard Krajicek once caused quite a stir when he called female tennis players fat.


Not just fat, but "80% of women in the draw are fat, lazy pigs who do not deserve to play on the Centre Court"...


Well isn't that special.

:lol:
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby Dutra5 » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:27 pm

jhc68 wrote:Other sports?
Visualize CC Sabathia pitching to Big Papi Ortiz...
Anyway my bet is that if mump boy played a set of tennis with Bartoli she would run him ragged.
Years ago I saw a TV feature with Lyn Swan - an immensely talented athlete with passable tennis skills - getting completely destroyed by Martina Navratolova. Swan was exhausted while Martina casually narrated and offered advice throughout the set. So the answer is YES the skill set is that important and also YES these women are much more fit than you assume.
As for raising their level of play... these were the Wimbledon finalists so how much better do we expect them to be?


Martina was quite firepluggish...particularly as a younger player...herself.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby Dutra5 » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:32 pm

mump boy wrote:
Thankyou for bringing some knowledge and insight to proceedings :D

I'm not trying to insult anyone or question their work ethic but there is a noticeable lack of fitness in some players which looks incongruous with top level sport


I think you are interchanging fitness and physique and equating them.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby Blues » Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:55 pm

I don't think mump's question was out of line... Many people expect elite athletes to train in a way that improves their athletic performance the most, and that includes having the best body for the sport.

With that being said though, not everyone has the same genetics or same metabolism.. Workouts that may burn every inch of fat off of one person may leave someone else a little softer... If Bartoli can keep her natural physique and be fit enough to win Wimbledon, more power to her... And it could be possible that she doesn't want the cut muscular physique that some of the other female athletes have.. Reminds me a little of one of my old football heroes from my days in the Pittsburgh area, "The Bus", Jerome Bettis. If they'd put him on a salad and melba toast diet, he might have been thinner, but he might not have been known as "The Bus" for his powerful running style either.

http://jacksonville.com/sites/default/f ... 630693.jpg

Similarly, when I was in college, a kid in our town was the leading home run hitter in area pony league baseball one season... He was about 100 lbs overweight. After the summer he ate nothing but a few cups of yogurt and a few oranges a day, and lost the entire 100 lbs. He looked great and could run faster, but he lost his power and never hit another home run the next season. So maybe it's possible that Marion Bartoli's body allows her the best compromise between speed/endurance and power, considering her genetics, diet, and metabolism.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby jamal00005 » Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:56 pm

On another note did anyone see Bartoli at the gala they had on sunday night....she looked lovely and seems to have a nice ass :D :D :D
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby Vielleicht » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:26 am

mump boy wrote:My questions was how do you compete as a world class athlete while appearing to be so unfit ??

If the answer is 'appearances are deceptive' then fine

If the answer is 'you don't need to be particularly fit to get to the top in tennis' then fine

If the answer is 'this body shape is actually an asset' then fine

I wish people would stop looking for insults were there are none, stop comparing tennis to stationary sports and stop commenting on things you obviously know nothing about.

Of course female tennis players are very conditioned and fit for their sport, otherwise how are they going to play every night in a week, 2 hours a day? It's just that they can afford to carry a little bit extra body fat, because a typical tennis match has only a small proportion of actual playing time with numerous breaks; moreover, the actual playing time also involves many a period of not much running but just standing and waving the racket, especially in the women's game. Is tennis a physically demanding sport? Of course it is; is it as aerobically challenging as distance running or bicycle? I'd say no, it's about the ability of eking out short bursts of energy when it comes down to the specific conditioning. I think it's slightly more reasonable comparing tennis to baseball, than calling it a sport "requiring aerobic fitness over 2 hours".
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby mump boy » Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:22 am

Dutra5 wrote:
mump boy wrote:
Thankyou for bringing some knowledge and insight to proceedings :D

I'm not trying to insult anyone or question their work ethic but there is a noticeable lack of fitness in some players which looks incongruous with top level sport


I think you are interchanging fitness and physique and equating them.


That may very well be so and maybe i'm mistaken in doing that but it is hardly a unusual inference to make !! Marion Bartoli (despite the PC responses on here) does not 'look' like a world class sportsperson.

This is in no way meant to denigrate her (she's probably my favourite tennis player) her skill level is unbelievable but you wouldn't pick her out of line up as a sporting champion

The faux outrage in here is laughable, you lot would argue with your own shadow just for the sake of it !!
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby mump boy » Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:32 am

Blues wrote:I don't think mump's question was out of line... Many people expect elite athletes to train in a way that improves their athletic performance the most, and that includes having the best body for the sport.

With that being said though, not everyone has the same genetics or same metabolism.. Workouts that may burn every inch of fat off of one person may leave someone else a little softer... If Bartoli can keep her natural physique and be fit enough to win Wimbledon, more power to her... And it could be possible that she doesn't want the cut muscular physique that some of the other female athletes have.. Reminds me a little of one of my old football heroes from my days in the Pittsburgh area, "The Bus", Jerome Bettis. If they'd put him on a salad and melba toast diet, he might have been thinner, but he might not have been known as "The Bus" for his powerful running style either.

http://jacksonville.com/sites/default/f ... 630693.jpg

Similarly, when I was in college, a kid in our town was the leading home run hitter in area pony league baseball one season... He was about 100 lbs overweight. After the summer he ate nothing but a few cups of yogurt and a few oranges a day, and lost the entire 100 lbs. He looked great and could run faster, but he lost his power and never hit another home run the next season. So maybe it's possible that Marion Bartoli's body allows her the best compromise between speed/endurance and power, considering her genetics, diet, and metabolism.


Thakyou

I read that her dad got her to put on weight to improve her power. Conventionally you'd put on muscle wouldn't you ? but it works for her

I just wonder though, it's taken her 48 attempts and till the age of 28 to win a Grand Slam (the most attempts ever). Could she have won earlier if she'd been as 'fit' (i hesitiate to use that word as it's so contentious !!) as say Sciavonne or Henin who have a similar build eg not Venus, Sharipova or Serena etc
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby batonless relay » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:47 am

Just because you're good enough to win doesn't necessarily mean that you're in optimal shape; and that's what most people think of when they consider champion athletes - especially athletes that might need a component of cardio-vascular ability to do well in their sport. A LOT of the women tennis players are fat! And if better athletes were in their sport they would have to improve their physical fitness or be left behind. Period. Martina Navratilova used to look like a lot of them then she hired a trainer and got in shape. And, she was one of the best in the world at the time; later she would be one of the oldest women to ever win a GS match. Why? Fitness.

Also, sports demands tend to be similar across genders so if you can be "fat" in baseball then you can be "fat" in softball (or shot to shot, etc.). However, when you look at NCAA wBBall you see FAT women; when you see NCAA gymnastics you see FAT women. Hell, you can find FAT women on many cross country teams (and you better not mention a woman athletes weight on a college campus if you want to keep your job). Again, sports demands tend to be linear among the sexes; if we see so many women who are fat in tennis then you should see a corresponding number of males in pro tennis who look that way but you don't because men that size wouldn't be able to compete.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby Marlow » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:40 am

mump boy wrote:Marion Bartoli (despite the PC responses on here) does not 'look' like a world class sportsperson.

gh wrote:Who gives a shit? This is about winning, not fitting into your personal aesthetic.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby jeremyp » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:41 am

CookyMonzta wrote:I, for one, was happy still, when a Plain Jane with hardly a reputation stepped up and won this thing.
Good thing you're not a journalist/commentator/politician. :D
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby jeremyp » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:45 am

gh wrote:changing subject slightly, since nobody else (shockingly) has brought it up, but what an awesome men's final!

the post-match stuff was worth half a box of kleenex all by itself!

Being half Brit and being married to a Brit we almost missed this. I was trolling web and saw: "Djokjovic in control of 2d set" and turned it on and we watched the last set and, more importantly that OMG last game. 77 freaking years? Imagine if we (Yanks) had waited that long to win The America's Cup!!!
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby batonless relay » Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:10 am

jeremyp wrote:
gh wrote:changing subject slightly, since nobody else (shockingly) has brought it up, but what an awesome men's final!

the post-match stuff was worth half a box of kleenex all by itself!

Being half Brit and being married to a Brit we almost missed this. I was trolling web and saw: "Djokjovic in control of 2d set" and turned it on and we watched the last set and, more importantly that OMG last game. 77 freaking years? Imagine if we (Yanks) had waited that long to win The America's Cup!!!

Americ'as Cup isn't nearly as dear to Americans as Wimbledon is to Brits. Now if that were the Masters or the US Open...
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby mump boy » Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:24 am

Marlow wrote:
mump boy wrote:Marion Bartoli (despite the PC responses on here) does not 'look' like a world class sportsperson.

gh wrote:Who gives a shit? This is about winning, not fitting into your personal aesthetic.


Next time someone comments on Francena McCroroy's or Christophe Lemaitre's bad form i'll remember this.

Apparently we're no longer allowed to comment on anything we for fear of having a 'personal aesthetic' !!
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby nevetsllim » Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:30 am

mump boy wrote:
Blues wrote:I don't think mump's question was out of line... Many people expect elite athletes to train in a way that improves their athletic performance the most, and that includes having the best body for the sport.

With that being said though, not everyone has the same genetics or same metabolism.. Workouts that may burn every inch of fat off of one person may leave someone else a little softer... If Bartoli can keep her natural physique and be fit enough to win Wimbledon, more power to her... And it could be possible that she doesn't want the cut muscular physique that some of the other female athletes have.. Reminds me a little of one of my old football heroes from my days in the Pittsburgh area, "The Bus", Jerome Bettis. If they'd put him on a salad and melba toast diet, he might have been thinner, but he might not have been known as "The Bus" for his powerful running style either.

http://jacksonville.com/sites/default/f ... 630693.jpg


Thakyou

I read that her dad got her to put on weight to improve her power. Conventionally you'd put on muscle wouldn't you ? but it works for her

I just wonder though, it's taken her 48 attempts and till the age of 28 to win a Grand Slam (the most attempts ever). Could she have won earlier if she'd been as 'fit' (i hesitiate to use that word as it's so contentious !!) as say Sciavonne or Henin who have a similar build eg not Venus, Sharipova or Serena etc


I don't think so. I don't want to take anything away from Marion because you can only beat who's in front of you but she didn't have a difficult draw and the highest seed she faced (from memory) was Sloane Stephens who was the #16 seed. She's a super grass-court player but the draw very much opened up for her and she took advantage of it.

Going back to the original topic, I still wouldn't say women's tennis is as physical as the men's game although it's heading in that direction. You mentioned players like Davenport as an example of a player who wasn't in shape and back when she was starting on the tour in the early/mid-90s (in fact most of your examples were from this period), most top players played full singles AND doubles schedules. Hardly any of the top players commit to doubles on a week-to-week basis simply because of the increased physicality (and depth) in women's tennis. I'm not saying players were overweight but they didn't commit to off-court conditioning in the same way they do nowadays. You can't get away with just being a super ball-striker and if you want to get to the very top of the game, you have to be incredibly fit.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby mump boy » Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:35 am

Davenport very noticably got into shape before she actually won anything

If women had to play over 5 sets do you think there would be a marked difference in conditioning and physicality ?

(i'm trying to be very careful with terminology here so not to incur the wrath of the newly founded PC brigade)
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby Tuariki » Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:25 am

jeremyp wrote:77 freaking years? Imagine if we (Yanks) had waited that long to win The America's Cup!!!

Yanks win it? I think it was actually a couple of kiwis who were instrumental in winning the America's Cup for the USA with the assistance of a few hundred million American dollars
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby Marlow » Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:40 am

mump boy wrote:Next time someone comments on Francena McCroroy's or Christophe Lemaitre's bad form i'll remember this. Apparently we're no longer allowed to comment on anything we for fear of having a 'personal aesthetic' !!

How is commenting on someone's biomechanics the same as talking about how fat they look?
For someone who has usually shown himself to possess a higher consciousness (that's a huge compliment, by the way), you sure seem to be hung up on body types.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby jhc68 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:28 am

As per batonless relay:

" when you see NCAA gymnastics you see FAT women. Hell, you can find FAT women on many cross country teams (and you better not mention a woman athletes weight on a college campus if you want to keep your job)"

You got the last part right! Any unsolicited commentary by a male about any woman's body configuration is legally out of bounds at any work place, not only a college campus.

As for FAT women on gymnastics and cross-country teams, in my experience if this is posed as a health concern the overwhelming number of weight issues in these sports is exactly the opposite... anorexia and bulimia and the resulting 20 year-olds with the bone density of their grandmas are a much more legit worry.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby jeremyp » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:19 pm

batonless relay wrote:
jeremyp wrote:
gh wrote:changing subject slightly, since nobody else (shockingly) has brought it up, but what an awesome men's final!

the post-match stuff was worth half a box of kleenex all by itself!

Being half Brit and being married to a Brit we almost missed this. I was trolling web and saw: "Djokjovic in control of 2d set" and turned it on and we watched the last set and, more importantly that OMG last game. 77 freaking years? Imagine if we (Yanks) had waited that long to win The America's Cup!!!

Americ'as Cup isn't nearly as dear to Americans as Wimbledon is to Brits. Now if that were the Masters or the US Open...

Now it turns out to be the men who hadn't won for 77 years. A woman won 36 years ago, Virginia Wade? Let sexism prevail. :shock:
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:09 pm

Mary Cain, a very good middle distance runner where excess weight is a killer, does not look all that 'lean and mean'. On women, the appearance can be deceiving.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby mump boy » Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:02 pm

Marlow wrote:
mump boy wrote:Next time someone comments on Francena McCroroy's or Christophe Lemaitre's bad form i'll remember this. Apparently we're no longer allowed to comment on anything we for fear of having a 'personal aesthetic' !!

How is commenting on someone's biomechanics the same as talking about how fat they look?
For someone who has usually shown himself to possess a higher consciousness (that's a huge compliment, by the way), you sure seem to be hung up on body types.


It exactly the same

Being 'fat' is not usually conducive to great sporting performances however you'd like to spin it. It is an entirely appropriate topic for discussion

Why comment on someone's biomechanics just because they don't fit with your 'personal aesthetic ?

I don't remember Michael Johnson's unorthodox running style doing him any harm, despite the amount of discussion it provoked.
Last edited by mump boy on Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby mump boy » Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:04 pm

26mi235 wrote:Mary Cain, a very good middle distance runner where excess weight is a killer, does not look all that 'lean and mean'. On women, the appearance can be deceiving.


She is also a teenager and i do think that such discussions are inappropriate, which is why i didn't include a certain teenage tennis player who has hit the headlines for exactly this reason recently.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby kuha » Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:19 pm

mump boy wrote:Being 'fat' is not usually conducive to with great sporting performances however you'd like to spin it. It is an entirely appropriate topic for discussion


From what has already transpired here, that appears to be false.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby uakari » Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:23 pm

jeremyp wrote:Now it turns out to be the men who hadn't won for 77 years. A woman won 36 years ago, Virginia Wade? Let sexism prevail. :shock:


i know... i kept hearing/reading "first brit to win wimbledon in 77 years" -- oh you mean, first brit with the XY chromosomes...

as for fat female gymnasts -- are you sure you are not confusing bulkiness with muscle?
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby bushop » Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:28 pm

Seems like the more complex the skill set the less physical talent is required to compete at the highest levels.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby Marlow » Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:47 pm

bushop wrote:Seems like the more complex the skill set the less physical talent is required to compete at the highest levels.

??!!
Pole Vaulting is the most complex skill set in T&F and the very best are indeed extremely physically talented, which includes some 'bulky' athletes.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby bushop » Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:53 pm

Marlow wrote:
bushop wrote:Seems like the more complex the skill set the less physical talent is required to compete at the highest levels.

Pole Vaulting is the most complex skill set in T&F and the very best are indeed extremely physically talented, which includes some 'bulky' athletes.

Could it be said that one can have excellent technique but if you can't flat out sprint you're not world class?
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby Vielleicht » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:45 pm

bushop wrote:
Marlow wrote:
bushop wrote:Seems like the more complex the skill set the less physical talent is required to compete at the highest levels.

Pole Vaulting is the most complex skill set in T&F and the very best are indeed extremely physically talented, which includes some 'bulky' athletes.

Could it be said that one can have excellent technique but if you can't flat out sprint you're not world class?

I think so, there seems to be a baseline of required physical talent so to speak in any sport in order to be an elite athlete, to which the complexity of the skill set is an irrelevant variable; and in the world of athletics, no matter what the event is, this baseline is usually very, very high.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby bushop » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:52 pm

Vielleicht wrote:
bushop wrote:
Marlow wrote:
bushop wrote:Seems like the more complex the skill set the less physical talent is required to compete at the highest levels.

Pole Vaulting is the most complex skill set in T&F and the very best are indeed extremely physically talented, which includes some 'bulky' athletes.

Could it be said that one can have excellent technique but if you can't flat out sprint you're not world class?

I think so, there seems to be a baseline of required physical talent so to speak in any sport in order to be an elite athlete, to which the complexity of the skill set is an irrelevant variable; and in the world of athletics, no matter what the event is, this baseline is usually very, very high.

Agreed, but those baselines differ.
Even in tennis the skill set, and baseline of physicality, for the genders differs.
Men's game relies on big serves, women rely on long volleys, different skill sets.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby Master Po » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:45 pm

Nice essay on this year's Wimbledon, and appreciation of Bartoli:

Grantland, 8 July
Louisa Thomas, "On Marion Bartoli, a Perfect, Weird, Wimbledon Champion"
http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-trian ... n-champion
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby lapsus » Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:35 pm

Pretty ludicrous to say Bartoli is not fit, she gets around the court quite quickly... don't think she is "fat", either, just that the Stosurs of the world have made the ultra-cut, visibly-muscular physique seem normal (for a 170-175 cm player) - and also that there are lots of 180+ cm players around who have a completely different body shape.

Bartoli probably has a quite similar body fat % to, say, Ivanovic in her Grand Slam winning days, it's just that she's shorter and not "hot". You may have noticed that Ivanovic has gotten very thin recently, but her performances have not improved - it is the mental side of the game that is letting her down.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby Per Andersen » Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:43 pm

Different sports have different requirements. Maradona and Messi and Rooney for that matter. Do they look like super athletes?

But let's stick to tennis. Borg and McEnroe. Who looked like an athlete? And who chased Borg out of the game?
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby batonless relay » Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:57 am

Right now I'm thinking of 4 women of Track and Field; all retired; all NCAA individual Outdoor Champions; all Olympic team members who became even better athletes AFTER they had already been world ranked ... [partly] by losing weight. 21 WC or Olympic medals between them.

I can't speak for everyone else, but what I'm saying is that MANY, if not most of these tennis players WOULD possibly be better with a little (lot?) less pudge. A 31 year old woman quite possibly wouldn't be dominating tennis! The 2nd best woman in tennis MIGHT have beaten the #1 in the last 9 years! It's not just the fat ones, it's the skinny ones, too! Why are some of you assuming that they're being coached to the best of their ability? They're just not that well trained. And, this isn't new. Martina Navratilova was an incredible tennis player BEFORE she reformed her body. She wouldn't be "fat" for the average woman walking the street, but she was if she were to measure herself against the best athlete she could be. Just because some of these athletes who are being described as fat can "get away with carrying a little extra" and still be world class doesn't mean that they couldn't be better if they lost a few pounds.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby Daisy » Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:03 am

Master Po wrote:Nice essay on this year's Wimbledon, and appreciation of Bartoli:

Grantland, 8 July
Louisa Thomas, "On Marion Bartoli, a Perfect, Weird, Wimbledon Champion"
http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-trian ... n-champion

And yet the amount of hate out there is stunning.
http://publicshaming.tumblr.com/post/54 ... oli-deemed

I don't 'twitter' but if that is representative of the noise out there, it's not worth it.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby Master Po » Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:08 am

^ Agree w you, Daisy. Part of my reason for posting that article -- I thought it was a well-written, insightful appreciation of what happened at Wimbledon this year (with a focus in this instance on Bartoli). A small tonic for a lot of the entirely depressing "public discourse" that's out there. :( :)
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby Marlow » Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:09 am

Daisy wrote:I don't 'twitter' but if that is representative of the noise out there, it's not worth it.

Agree 100%. If I want hatas hatin', I can go here! :evil:
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby Daisy » Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:19 am

Master Po wrote:A small tonic

Let's make it go a long way.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:42 am

Per Andersen wrote:But let's stick to tennis. Borg and McEnroe. Who looked like an athlete? And who chased Borg out of the game?

I never thought of either one of them as being overweight. As matter of fact, I can't think of any male tennis player that I would consider fat. It seems that only women tennis players can get away with carrying extra weight. But that's with sports in genral, not just tennis.
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