Why can female tennis players get away with being ..


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Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby mump boy » Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:56 pm

So out of shape ?

It is very noticeable that a number of successful female tennis players are extremely unconditioned and un-athletic

Bartoli won Wimbledon today with remarkable skill but a roll of fat

http://images.supersport.com/2013/7/Mar ... 04G300.jpg

Serena, Kvitova, Seles, Capriati, Davenport,

http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Petr ... rOaFYl.jpg

i don't know of any other sport where top level players (who must be incredibly fit) can get away with this

Would they improve if they were more conditioned or is the skill level so high that visible fitness isn't so important ??
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby gh » Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:03 pm

John McEnroe was perhaps the most unathletic athlete I've ever seen. And one of the best. Who gives a shit? And why? This is about winning, not fitting into your personal aesthetic.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby TN1965 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:25 pm

Appearance could be deceiving.

Do you think the top shot putters, discus throwers and hammer throwers are "out of shape"?

I'd rather look at how they are moving on the court than their waist line to judge tennis players' fitness.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby Marlow » Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:33 pm

TN1965 wrote:Appearance could be deceiving.
Do you think the top shot putters, discus throwers and hammer throwers are "out of shape"?

Bingo. There've been some roly-poly SPers with jiggle-rolls around their bellies. I bet no one called them unathletic. Some of the best NFL offensive linemen are genuinely obese!
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby Pego » Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:40 pm

Richard Krajicek once caused quite a stir when he called female tennis players fat.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby TN1965 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:34 pm

Pego wrote:Richard Krajicek once caused quite a stir when he called female tennis players fat.


Not just fat, but "80% of women in the draw are fat, lazy pigs who do not deserve to play on the Centre Court"...
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby mump boy » Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:35 pm

gh wrote:John McEnroe was perhaps the most unathletic athlete I've ever seen. And one of the best. Who gives a shit? And why? This is about winning, not fitting into your personal aesthetic.


This has absolutely nothing to do with my personal aesthetic and i resent the implication that is does.

Athletes in all sports are usually toned and conditioned, often in women's tennis this is not the case. I can't think of another sport where someone so seemingly unfit could be so successful

Why ?
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby mump boy » Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:37 pm

TN1965 wrote:Appearance could be deceiving.

Do you think the top shot putters, discus throwers and hammer throwers are "out of shape"?

I'd rather look at how they are moving on the court than their waist line to judge tennis players' fitness.


I think some throwers are very much in shape and others not so much, but they are not competing in a sport that requires aerobic fitness over 2 hours.

Surely someone's waist line is connected to their movement on court :?
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby mump boy » Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:41 pm

Marlow wrote:
TN1965 wrote:Appearance could be deceiving.
Do you think the top shot putters, discus throwers and hammer throwers are "out of shape"?

Bingo. There've been some roly-poly SPers with jiggle-rolls around their bellies. I bet no one called them unathletic. Some of the best NFL offensive linemen are genuinely obese!


Totally different sports

Some throwers are very out of shape and i would bet it effects their performance. You'll note that the most successful of recent years, Adams, Kumbernus, Heidler, Lysenko etc etc do bot fall in to this category
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby mump boy » Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:42 pm

TN1965 wrote:
Pego wrote:Richard Krajicek once caused quite a stir when he called female tennis players fat.


Not just fat, but "80% of women in the draw are fat, lazy pigs who do not deserve to play on the Centre Court"...


I thought of that when starting this thread. You'll notice i didn't use such terminology
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby cullman » Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:45 pm

Stan Wawrinka is my favourite tennis player because he's unkempt and out of shape! :D
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby TN1965 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:10 pm

mump boy wrote:Surely someone's waist line is connected to their movement on court :?


Several years ago, Serena showed up in the Australian Open looking like Queen Latifah. Many people on the net said "she is so out of shape. There is no way she can win this tournament." But her movement improved with each match and she went on to win the title, still looking like Latifah. :lol:
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby Marlow » Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:23 pm

mump boy wrote:I can't think of another sport where someone so seemingly unfit could be so successful

That simply isn't true. Athletics is indeed a sport and there have been very successful 'fat' ones. Women's softball. Men's baseball. Ami football, as I mentioned. Weight-lifters. I can't imagine why you're singling out women's tennis; I'm guessing gh is correct?
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby gm » Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:57 pm

mump boy wrote:
TN1965 wrote:Appearance could be deceiving.

Do you think the top shot putters, discus throwers and hammer throwers are "out of shape"?

I'd rather look at how they are moving on the court than their waist line to judge tennis players' fitness.


I think some throwers are very much in shape and others not so much, but they are not competing in a sport that requires aerobic fitness over 2 hours.

Surely someone's waist line is connected to their movement on court :?


Wayne Rooney is a fatty, but that doesn't stop him excelling in a sport that requires much more aerobic ability than tennis. I would also quibble with your assertion that tennis requires aerobic fitness over 2 hours.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby jhc68 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 9:32 pm

Other sports?
Visualize CC Sabathia pitching to Big Papi Ortiz...
Anyway my bet is that if mump boy played a set of tennis with Bartoli she would run him ragged.
Years ago I saw a TV feature with Lyn Swan - an immensely talented athlete with passable tennis skills - getting completely destroyed by Martina Navratolova. Swan was exhausted while Martina casually narrated and offered advice throughout the set. So the answer is YES the skill set is that important and also YES these women are much more fit than you assume.
As for raising their level of play... these were the Wimbledon finalists so how much better do we expect them to be?
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby jamal00005 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:36 pm

TN1965 wrote:
mump boy wrote:Surely someone's waist line is connected to their movement on court :?


Several years ago, Serena showed up in the Australian Open looking like Queen Latifah. Many people on the net said "she is so out of shape. There is no way she can win this tournament." But her movement improved with each match and she went on to win the title, still looking like Latifah. :lol:

:lol:
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby mump boy » Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:26 am

Marlow wrote:
mump boy wrote:I can't think of another sport where someone so seemingly unfit could be so successful

That simply isn't true. Athletics is indeed a sport and there have been very successful 'fat' ones. Women's softball. Men's baseball. Ami football, as I mentioned. Weight-lifters. I can't imagine why you're singling out women's tennis; I'm guessing gh is correct?


None of those are considered sports where i'm from !! and certainly ones where fitness would be required !! Sitting on a bench for most of the game does not compare to spending 2 hours + on a tennis court.

Only having to play 3 sets obviously contributes.
Last edited by mump boy on Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby mump boy » Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:30 am

jhc68 wrote:Anyway my bet is that if mump boy played a set of tennis with Bartoli she would run him ragged.


Of course she would :? it may have escaped your notice but i'm not a world class athlete !!
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby nevetsllim » Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:15 am

I don't think that's fair on Marion. Not everyone is lucky enough to have a fantastically svetle figure and even though she's not the slimmest player on tour, it isn't through lack of effort. I've seen videos of her practicising and every session is incredibly intense and she's very much reputed for having an incredible work ethic, probably because she has to work that bit harder to make up for her lack of athleticism.

But I agree players like Serena, Kvitova, Seles (and at times Pierce) have looked rather overweight but that normally coincides with periods of inactivity through injury and none of them have played their best tennis in that shape. However, the women's game isn't as physical as the men's game and the players you listed are among the best ball-strikers in the sport's history so being in fantastically prime shape isn't necessarily a prerequisite for success if you can really dominate play from the baseline. While Serena has won Grand Slams not being in good shape (2007 AO, for example), I would say her best tennis has come when she's knuckled down to fitness (2002-03, 2012-13).

And for what it's worth, I've seen Bartoli play in Eastbourne before and everyone was commenting how she does look much slimmer in real-life (which I can attest to) so maybe it's true about the camera adding 10lbs. :wink:
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby Flumpy » Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:43 am

TN1965 wrote:
mump boy wrote:Surely someone's waist line is connected to their movement on court :?


Several years ago, Serena showed up in the Australian Open looking like Queen Latifah. Many people on the net said "she is so out of shape. There is no way she can win this tournament." But her movement improved with each match and she went on to win the title, still looking like Latifah. :lol:


But that's exactly mumps question.

How is this possible in women's tennis but, for example not on the men's side.

I can't think of a single sport that you find players so seemingly out of shape and yet successful.

You certainly don't see any track athletes with such physiques.

If they had to play 3 sets would this still be the case?
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby Marlow » Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:45 am

mump boy wrote:
Marlow wrote:Athletics (throws)
baseball
(US) football

None of those are considered sports where i'm from !!

Well, at least now we know that you're completely out of your mind . . .
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby jeremyp » Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:57 am

mump boy wrote:[ I can't think of another sport where someone so seemingly unfit could be so successful

Why ?

Golf? Race car driving? Sumo wrestling? I know they require little or no fast movement or stamina. One of my friends in high school was 30-40 lbs overweight. He could run the 100 yds in 11 seconds, his brother, who was sleight had the school record of 10.3. English channel swimmers used to be (haven't kept up) quite larded. I knew one and he was a good 50 lbs over my weight and I was 13 stone. (191 Ilbs)
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby kuha » Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:00 am

The whole point is to have the skills/fitness NECESSARY for success in the given sport. And the successful ones obviously DO have what is necessary, whether that matches or doesn't match the abstract aesthetic standards of outsiders. What else can one say?
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby jhc68 » Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:46 am

jhc68 wrote:
Anyway my bet is that if mump boy played a set of tennis with Bartoli she would run him ragged.

mump boy wrote:
Of course she would it may have escaped your notice but i'm not a world class athlete !!

But the implication of the original post is that the Wimbledon finalists are too heavy to be considered world class athletes. If that is not the point of the thread then what is?
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby Jnathletics » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:06 am

mump boy wrote:So out of shape ?

Serena, Kvitova, Seles, Capriati, Davenport,


Sorry but Serena???? She is one of the most athletic tennis players out there. Serena's body may not appear in shape to the average person but she is extremely athletic. She is built for power and speed. And over the years her endurance has improved. She typically does double duty at these tournaments with doubles with her sister. I don't see how someone could do both at this level and be out of shape.

Always thought that Serena could have been good at a lot of sports, which is my definition of being athletic.

And some of the others you list must be based on their later years as Seles and Capriati were considered very fit in their early years.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby Pego » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:24 am

Based on the physique of the two sisters early in their careers, I predicted a substantially brighter future for Venus. I was, obviously, quite wrong.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby Marlow » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:40 am

Serena is a big woman, but if you look at the abs, she has a lot less body-fat than you imagine.

http://dreallday.com/wp-content/uploads ... ini-02.jpg
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby Tuariki » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:47 am

mump boy wrote:
gh wrote:John McEnroe was perhaps the most unathletic athlete I've ever seen. And one of the best. Who gives a shit? And why? This is about winning, not fitting into your personal aesthetic.


This has absolutely nothing to do with my personal aesthetic and i resent the implication that is does.

Athletes in all sports are usually toned and conditioned, often in women's tennis this is not the case. I can't think of another sport where someone so seemingly unfit could be so successful

Why ?

Start with cricket
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby Tuariki » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:47 am

Then baseball
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby CookyMonzta » Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:09 am

gh wrote:John McEnroe was perhaps the most unathletic athlete I've ever seen. And one of the best. Who gives a shit? And why? This is about winning, not fitting into your personal aesthetic.

Indeed. And yet, some crusty bloke named John Inverdale made a crass comment about Bartoli and looks...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/tennis/wimbledon/10164511/Wimbledon-2013-BBC-apologise-for-John-Inverdales-Bartoli-not-a-looker-comment.html

...proving once again that the media--and quite a number of fans (but certainly not everyone)--worship one thing above all else in women's tennis (I must apologize beforehand, but I see no more appropriate way of saying it, because this is the only word that gets right to the point): Pussy!

Consider the craziness that went on when Anna K. jumped on the scene, before she was horribly exposed. They were ready to put Sabine Lisicki on that same pedestal if she had won (especially after beating Serena), the pedestal they put Maria Sharapova on when she caught Serena sleeping in 2004 and smoked her, to the point where they had declared the beginning of the end for the Williams sisters. Fortunately that came to a screeching halt in 2005.

I, for one, was happy still, when a Plain Jane with hardly a reputation stepped up and won this thing. It saved us from another potential folly of the media trying to sell another player for her looks, rather than her skills. :wink:
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby mump boy » Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:18 am

nevetsllim wrote:I don't think that's fair on Marion. Not everyone is lucky enough to have a fantastically svetle figure and even though she's not the slimmest player on tour, it isn't through lack of effort. I've seen videos of her practicising and every session is incredibly intense and she's very much reputed for having an incredible work ethic, probably because she has to work that bit harder to make up for her lack of athleticism.

But I agree players like Serena, Kvitova, Seles (and at times Pierce) have looked rather overweight but that normally coincides with periods of inactivity through injury and none of them have played their best tennis in that shape. However, the women's game isn't as physical as the men's game and the players you listed are among the best ball-strikers in the sport's history so being in fantastically prime shape isn't necessarily a prerequisite for success if you can really dominate play from the baseline. While Serena has won Grand Slams not being in good shape (2007 AO, for example), I would say her best tennis has come when she's knuckled down to fitness (2002-03, 2012-13).

And for what it's worth, I've seen Bartoli play in Eastbourne before and everyone was commenting how she does look much slimmer in real-life (which I can attest to) so maybe it's true about the camera adding 10lbs. :wink:


Thankyou for bringing some knowledge and insight to proceedings :D

I'm not trying to insult anyone or question their work ethic but there is a noticeable lack of fitness in some players which looks incongruous with top level sport
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby mump boy » Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:25 am

jhc68 wrote:jhc68 wrote:
Anyway my bet is that if mump boy played a set of tennis with Bartoli she would run him ragged.

mump boy wrote:
Of course she would it may have escaped your notice but i'm not a world class athlete !!

But the implication of the original post is that the Wimbledon finalists are too heavy to be considered world class athletes. If that is not the point of the thread then what is?


That was not my implication at all. Anyone who wins Wimbledon or even competes at a Grand Slam is obviously a world class athlete !!

My questions was how do you compete as a world class athlete while appearing to be so unfit ??

If the answer is 'appearances are deceptive' then fine

If the answer is 'you don't need to be particularly fit to get to the top in tennis' then fine

If the answer is 'this body shape is actually an asset' then fine

I wish people would stop looking for insults were there are none, stop comparing tennis to stationary sports and stop commenting on things you obviously know nothing about.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby mump boy » Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:27 am

CookyMonzta wrote:
gh wrote:John McEnroe was perhaps the most unathletic athlete I've ever seen. And one of the best. Who gives a shit? And why? This is about winning, not fitting into your personal aesthetic.

Indeed. And yet, some crusty bloke named John Inverdale made a crass comment about Bartoli and looks...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/tennis/wimbledon/10164511/Wimbledon-2013-BBC-apologise-for-John-Inverdales-Bartoli-not-a-looker-comment.html

...proving once again that the media--and quite a number of fans (but certainly not everyone)--worship one thing above all else in women's tennis (I must apologize beforehand, but I see no more appropriate way of saying it, because this is the only word that gets right to the point): Pussy!

Consider the craziness that went on when Anna K. jumped on the scene, before she was horribly exposed. They were ready to put Sabine Lisicki on that same pedestal if she had won (especially after beating Serena), the pedestal they put Maria Sharapova on when she caught Serena sleeping in 2004 and smoked her, to the point where they had declared the beginning of the end for the Williams sisters. Fortunately that came to a screeching halt in 2005.

I, for one, was happy still, when a Plain Jane with hardly a reputation stepped up and won this thing. It saved us from another potential folly of the media trying to sell another player for her looks, rather than her skills. :wink:


What this has to do with my original post i have no idea
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby Marlow » Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:41 am

mump boy wrote:Bartoli won Wimbledon today with remarkable skill but a roll of fat

there is a noticeable lack of fitness in some players

But don't you see that you are completely misperceiving this due to some personal standard of aesthetics? Bartoli OBVIOUSLY is in great shape - whether it fits your preconceived notions or not.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby kuha » Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:52 am

mump boy wrote:My questions was how do you compete as a world class athlete while appearing to be so unfit ??

If the answer is 'appearances are deceptive' then fine

If the answer is 'you don't need to be particularly fit to get to the top in tennis' then fine

If the answer is 'this body shape is actually an asset' then fine

I wish people would stop looking for insults were there are none, stop comparing tennis to stationary sports and stop commenting on things you obviously know nothing about.


I, for one, have answered the question: the point is to have skills/fitness NECESSARY to the job at hand. And the top athletes, by definition, very obviously HAVE those necessary skills/fitness. Period and end of story. It may be true that some/many of those skills are either invisible to most people or, perhaps, only to you. In any case, what you believe you are seeing as a "negative" isn't one. Why should we assume that "fitness" to every and any athletic endeavor would be somehow visually obvious and/or physiologically generic? There's no reason in the world that should be so.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby Tuariki » Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:54 am

mump boy wrote:What this has to do with my original post i have no idea

Perhaps because your original post was just so wrong.

As Marlow said, Bartoli is obviously in great shape. All of the ladies playing at Wimbledon are fantastically fit.

As for CookyMonzta he was just pointing out that many of the purveyors of women's tennis display an admiration that goes beyond the athletic skills on show - believed to be a trait of a few posters on this forum as well.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby gh » Sun Jul 07, 2013 12:17 pm

changing subject slightly, since nobody else (shockingly) has brought it up, but what an awesome men's final!

the post-match stuff was worth half a box of kleenex all by itself!
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby Marlow » Sun Jul 07, 2013 12:58 pm

gh wrote:changing subject slightly, since nobody else (shockingly) has brought it up, but what an awesome men's final!
the post-match stuff was worth half a box of kleenex all by itself!

That last game I was literally on the edge of my chair yelling at Murray to FINISH him (though I also like Djokovic).
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby jhc68 » Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:45 pm

Djokovic was all class after the match, the guy has really grown up over the past few years.

As for the match itself, it seemed as if Murray knew he had to finish in 3... if he'd let Djokovic steal the 3rd set he would never have had the physical and emotional stamina to win another set. What a great match.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby jhc68 » Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:13 pm

Back to mump boy's questions, here is what I think:

1) My questions was how do you compete as a world class athlete while appearing to be so unfit ??
Neither finalist appeared to be unfit to me. They survived a grueling 2 week tournament against the best players in the world and in the finals both blasted hard ground strokes to one another after running rentlessly to put themselves in the right place to make their shots. So what looked unfit?

2) If the answer is 'appearances are deceptive' then fine
The "deceptive" element is self-induced because mump boy looked at the players' bodies instead of their performances.

3) If the answer is 'you don't need to be particularly fit to get to the top in tennis' then fine
What on earth - aside from your personal assessment of womens' physiques - would make you think you do not need to be fit to win a 2 week long tourney against the best players on earth?

4) If the answer is 'this body shape is actually an asset' then fine
If body shape determined the winner it would be a beauty contest instead of a tennis tournament.
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