Kenyans and the 5000m-10.000m world records


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Kenyans and the 5000m-10.000m world records

Postby AFTERBURNER » Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:30 pm

Why aren't the male Kenyans trying to chase the 5000m and 10.000m world records anymore?

Even Paul Tergat has complain about that.
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Re: Kenyans and the 5000m-10.000m world records

Postby aaronk » Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:34 pm

Maybe because, in their Kenyan heart of hearts, they know they're not capable of breaking them!!
Just a thought!
:)
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Re: Kenyans and the 5000m-10.000m world records

Postby AFTERBURNER » Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:40 pm

Man that was mean! I wonder what Toby Tanser would say about that?
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Re: Kenyans and the 5000m-10.000m world records

Postby aaronk » Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:54 pm

I was being a bit facetious!
But seriously......those records are damn GOOD!!
The 5K is 12 laps in about 60.5 each, then a closing 200 at the same speed!
The 10K is 25 laps in about 63.1 each!!

Would love to see ANYONE........Kenyan or not.......take a stab at them!!
Ditto for the women's 5&10K's!!
(Yes, I believe the Chinese woman's 10K mark CAN be broken!)
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Re: Kenyans and the 5000m-10.000m world records

Postby AFTERBURNER » Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:04 pm

You have an interesting sence of humor!

As for the chinese ladies world records at 5k and 10k their very controversial at best!

Remember Ma's army and his potions?
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Re: Kenyans and the 5000m-10.000m world records

Postby aaronk » Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:17 pm

AFTERBURNER wrote:You have an interesting sence of humor!

As for the chinese ladies world records at 5k and 10k their very controversial at best!

Remember Ma's army and his potions?


Re the Chinese marks.
You must mean the 3K, not the 5K......although at one time a Chinese woman DID hold the 5K mark.
You probably know that in the LAST HALF of that 10K, Wang Junxia actually ran FASTER than the then-current WR for 5K!!
She hit 5K in 15:05.69, thus running her second 5K in 14:26....."breaking" Jiang Bo's mark of 14:28.09!!
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Re: Kenyans and the 5000m-10.000m world records

Postby AFTERBURNER » Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:23 pm

Thank you for the correction.

However, I still think that's Ma's "potions" had something to do with it!

I won't speculate any further cause I don't want to be ousted from this board!
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Re: Kenyans and the 5000m-10.000m world records

Postby lovetorun » Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:56 pm

I agree with aaronk...the men's 5000m and 10,000m WR's are really down there...and no current runner, African or otherwise is good enough to improve them. :)
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Re: Kenyans and the 5000m-10.000m world records

Postby aaronk » Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:15 pm

lovetorun wrote:I agree with aaronk...the men's 5000m and 10,000m WR's are really down there...and no current runner, African or otherwise is good enough to improve them. :)


Thanks!
It will be interesting, however, to see how some of the young ones develop in the next 2 or 3 years.
But it would take someone who is ALSO capable of breaking the 3K/2 mile records.
If one can run 7:20 for 3K, he should be able to "cruise" through 3K enroute to 5K in 7:33.
He'd have to hold that pace over the last 2K, for a final time of 12:35.
And just as with K Bekele, if he can run 12:35, he would have a 30-32 second slowdown......to about 26:14 for 10K.

But who can challenge Komen's 3K/2 mile marks??
Again, let's see how the current teenage/20 year old crop develops.
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Re: Kenyans and the 5000m-10.000m world records

Postby pickle47 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:43 pm

This may be a little bit controversial, but I think Mo Farah would have a shot at both those records. This is a guy who hops into a 1500 and, with no special emphasis, runs a 3:34. He handles low 12:50s guys at their best. But we may never see his best times because he runs to win.
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Re: Kenyans and the 5000m-10.000m world records

Postby aaronk » Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:39 pm

Money and medals rule the distance races!
In the DL races (1500-10K), people run for the money!
Why risk blowing up by going out at WR pace....when they can run, say, a 12:55, win, and collect their DL points?
As for the OG and WC?
Those have become mostly strategic races.....with medals, not times, as the goal.
Okay, so money talks?
How about putting up a $1,000,000 prize for a WR?
Then get a pacer who will run the needed pace through at least halfway....and pay that person for the job he/she does.......only AFTER they perform their task, not before!!
If the pacer messes up, they get paid a low basic fee, and nothing else.

Otherwise, we'll be waiting around for someone who feels a WR is more important than a Gold Medal!!
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Re: Kenyans and the 5000m-10.000m world records

Postby 26mi235 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:56 pm

pickle47 wrote:This may be a little bit controversial, but I think Mo Farah would have a shot at both those records. This is a guy who hops into a 1500 and, with no special emphasis, runs a 3:34. He handles low 12:50s guys at their best. But we may never see his best times because he runs to win.


Geb, whose records were eclipsed, had a 3:31i. Also, despite several attempts he never got that close to 7:20.
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Re: Kenyans and the 5000m-10.000m world records

Postby pickle47 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:26 pm

26mi235 wrote:
pickle47 wrote:This may be a little bit controversial, but I think Mo Farah would have a shot at both those records. This is a guy who hops into a 1500 and, with no special emphasis, runs a 3:34. He handles low 12:50s guys at their best. But we may never see his best times because he runs to win.


Geb, whose records were eclipsed, had a 3:31i. Also, despite several attempts he never got that close to 7:20.


Knew that. And Komen had his 3:29. Just saying he obviously has the endurance and strength, and the speed is probably there as well.

I hate the fact that distance guys all seem to think they need to move to the marathon in the twilight of their careers (latest: Teg). "Run as fast as you can on the track, then head for the roads!" Not everyone is going to be a world-beater marathoner. Having said that, there i$ a lot of $$$ there.
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Re: Kenyans and the 5000m-10.000m world records

Postby effable » Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:45 pm

This raises somethg I've wondered about. Does Mo Farah -- or any of the other top distance runners -- not have any idea whether he has the capability of breaking the record? Granted practice is different from competition, but don't these guys ever do all-out 5 or 10 Ks in practice? Once in a while maybe? Wouldn't they have a pretty good idea what their absolute best might be? Or do they just train steadily at distance, push themselves at 200m repeats, and always in practice stay at less than the maximal effort they might put out in competition?
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Re: Kenyans and the 5000m-10.000m world records

Postby effable » Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:36 am

Maybe this is fated to rapidly become a dead thread, but I really was wondering about the above, if anyone has a thought.
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Re: Kenyans and the 5000m-10.000m world records

Postby lovetorun » Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:17 am

World class 5000m/10,000m runners don't run all out time trials. They know where they are pretty much by how their training is going. As good as Mo Farah is, I doubt he could run under 26:13 or 12:37. It may be a while before these records are broken.
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Re: Kenyans and the 5000m-10.000m world records

Postby effable » Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:59 pm

Ok thanks. So Mo Farah would only have a very approximate idea of what he's really capable of running.
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Re: Kenyans and the 5000m-10.000m world records

Postby lovetorun » Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:37 am

Right. But based on recent training and racing he can come pretty close to knowing what he can do.
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Re: Kenyans and the 5000m-10.000m world records

Postby 26mi235 » Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:51 am

And I doubt it is the WR in the 5000/10,000. In part, he probably limits is minimum time by working on racing (finishing speed) rather than optimizing time-trialing ability. Right choice in my mind.
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Re: Kenyans and the 5000m-10.000m world records

Postby effable » Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:36 pm

So I'm thinking about Bannister's efforts at the four-minute mile. No one is likely to take up the explicit goal of a 5 or 10K WR today, but maybe it would be more likely were someone to take up the challenge by that kind of methodical approach. Not that that will ever happen, as professional running is currently constituted.
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Re: Kenyans and the 5000m-10.000m world records

Postby kuha » Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:03 pm

effable wrote:So I'm thinking about Bannister's efforts at the four-minute mile. No one is likely to take up the explicit goal of a 5 or 10K WR today, but maybe it would be more likely were someone to take up the challenge by that kind of methodical approach. Not that that will ever happen, as professional running is currently constituted.


For Bannister, it was about an essentially personal achievement/priority (and fame, even though he would have protested against that word). Those factors are still in play today, but how much "fame," really, does a WR get anyone these days? In their home towns, or home countries (if relatively small) lots, I'm sure. Beyond that, it's not a sure thing at all.

In addition, of course, the role of economics is vastly greater than in Bannister's time. And what economic incentive would there be to set a WR today beyond the "standard" payday from meet promoters for such things? A $10 million tax-free payday for a WR MIGHT stimulate some serious time-trial activity, at least over a 2 or 3 year period. But how much public interest would there be in such attempts? Very little, frankly, since the general public long ago lost its grip on the sport's benchmarks. None of this matters, however, since no $10 M offer is remotely likely.

There are good reasons that many folks emphasize that the sport is "really" (meaning entirely or almost so) about competition. First, of course, one key and central element IS competition--seeing who is the best in head-to-head matchups. That's so obvious that it hardly needs to be stated. Second, this attitude makes a virtue of the commonplace--competitions--and serves as a generic kind of equalizer. Few fields have the real possibility of producing world-leading times. However, every field, from the most elite to the most mediocre, possesses the possibility of exciting (i.e., close) competition. For that, all you need are athletes closely matched in talent--which happens pretty naturally in the sport's current structure.
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Re: Kenyans and the 5000m-10.000m world records

Postby TN1965 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:20 am

WR per se does not get much publicity. It has to be "barrier breaking." The next barriers in 5000 and 10000 are 12:30 (60 sec per lap!) and 26:00 respectively, and those times will not be achieved any time soon.

As soon as someone runs a 2:00.xx marathon, the chase for a sub-2 will be in full swing, and whoever achieves it first will get more fame than the Olympic champions immediately before or after (assuming it is not the same runner). That runner will probably get more global fame than Bannister did for this four-minute mile, if not in the US or UK.
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Re: Kenyans and the 5000m-10.000m world records

Postby aaronk » Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:34 am

Remember when Geb shattered the 5K mark......bringing it in one race from 12:55 to 12:44??
Who ever thought that mark (the 12:44) could be broken.....or would be any time soon?
Then along comes Bekele, and BOOM.....the record is lowered to 12:37.

Conclusion?

All we need is a Geb or a Bekele to come along!!
Is he running now?

(And ditto with the 10K....as I think the person who breaks the 5K will be able to break the 10K too.)
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Re: Kenyans and the 5000m-10.000m world records

Postby kuha » Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:55 am

TN1965 wrote:WR per se does not get much publicity. It has to be "barrier breaking." The next barriers in 5000 and 10000 are 12:30 (60 sec per lap!) and 26:00 respectively, and those times will not be achieved any time soon.


I just don't see that. The larger public (or even, being generous, the "larger sporting public") ceased caring a long time ago. How much attention (outside of us) did the first sub 3:30, 7:30, 13:00, or 27:00 races get? Precious little. I learned alot when Komen's sub 8 minute 2 mile got essential zero press in the US. That was a perfect record for the US "public" to grab on to, and they just didn't care....at all....

The 4 minute mile was a truly special thing--the perfect event, the perfect barrier, at the perfect time in history. We have been living in a distinctly imperfect age for quite some time now...
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Re: Kenyans and the 5000m-10.000m world records

Postby Marlow » Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:10 am

AFTERBURNER wrote:Why aren't the male Kenyans trying to chase the 5000m and 10.000m world records anymore?

I must be in post-fireworks shock, because I genuinely don't understand this question!
When an athlete is ready to run a race (as opposed to race a race) at World Record pace, he does. All the necessary incentives are fully in place. There is simply no one right now that can sustain the 5 or 10 pace required. It's that simple.
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Re: Kenyans and the 5000m-10.000m world records

Postby TN1965 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:17 am

kuha wrote:The larger public (or even, being generous, the "larger sporting public") ceased caring a long time ago. How much attention (outside of us) did the first sub 3:30, 7:30, 13:00, or 27:00 races get? Precious little. I learned alot when Komen's sub 8 minute 2 mile got essential zero press in the US. That was a perfect record for the US "public" to grab on to, and they just didn't care....at all....

The 4 minute mile was a truly special thing--the perfect event, the perfect barrier, at the perfect time in history. We have been living in a distinctly imperfect age for quite some time now...


If you are exclusively thinking about the United States (and a few other English speaking countries), that may be the case. I was thinking about the whole world. It is not a big surprise that a Moroccan runner breaking the 13 minute barrier did not get much attention in the US. However, Ondieki's sub-27 did get a story in the Sports Illustrated.
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Re: Kenyans and the 5000m-10.000m world records

Postby TN1965 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:20 am

Marlow wrote:All the necessary incentives are fully in place.


How many of the current 5K/10K runners have a bonus clause for WR in their contract? Did Geb and Bekele have one?
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Re: Kenyans and the 5000m-10.000m world records

Postby Marlow » Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:24 am

TN1965 wrote:
Marlow wrote:All the necessary incentives are fully in place.

How many of the current 5K/10K runners have a bonus clause for WR in their contract? Did Geb and Bekele have one?

WR bonuses are nice, but the ancillary monetary benefits of being the WR-holder are sufficient incentive.
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Re: Kenyans and the 5000m-10.000m world records

Postby kuha » Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:32 am

TN1965 wrote:
kuha wrote:The larger public (or even, being generous, the "larger sporting public") ceased caring a long time ago. How much attention (outside of us) did the first sub 3:30, 7:30, 13:00, or 27:00 races get? Precious little. I learned alot when Komen's sub 8 minute 2 mile got essential zero press in the US. That was a perfect record for the US "public" to grab on to, and they just didn't care....at all....

The 4 minute mile was a truly special thing--the perfect event, the perfect barrier, at the perfect time in history. We have been living in a distinctly imperfect age for quite some time now...


If you are exclusively thinking about the United States (and a few other English speaking countries), that may be the case. I was thinking about the whole world. It is not a big surprise that a Moroccan runner breaking the 13 minute barrier did not get much attention in the US. However, Ondieki's sub-27 did get a story in the Sports Illustrated.


I was attempting to think globally, but used the 2 mile as a "perfect" US test case. I was living in England half-time for several years in the 1990s, so have at least some sense of the Euro perspective (at least in that era). It wouldn't surprise me if Aouita is (still) huge in Morocco. Given the media and economic foundation of the overall sport, however, that sort of fame isn't really enough. We are in complete agreement that typical WRs today don't register with the larger public. I'm simply extending that to say that even significant barrier-breaking WRs suffer the same basic fate.
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