Are any men's field event records soft?


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Are any men's field event records soft?

Postby Dave » Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:44 am

The newest one is from 1996 so I suspect none are at risk. Lavillenie could potentially challenge 6.15. Otherwise they all look safe for the foreseeable future.
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Re: Are any men's field event records soft?

Postby Sasuke » Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:29 am

Mutaz Barshim could one day clear 2.45/6 given his potential, but he has been having some back problems which slowed him down. The other events are tough: Tamgho could maybe approach the TJ record if one of his recent long fouls could translate into a 18+ valid jump, the LJ is impossible till now and so are the throwing events. Maybe among those the "weakest" is the discus throw, but Harting doesn't seem to be a 70+ performer.
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Re: Are any men's field event records soft?

Postby TeWaio » Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:34 am

I think by the 2020 Olympiad Okoye would've thrown ~77m in the discus, had he not left for the NFL.
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Re: Are any men's field event records soft?

Postby 26mi235 » Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:13 am

Dave wrote:The newest one is from 1996 so I suspect none are at risk. Lavillenie could potentially challenge 6.15. Otherwise they all look safe for the foreseeable future.


Lavillenie did not clear 5.62 today in what was a pretty mediocre PV given the participants (one over 5.72, two other NHs.
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Re: Are any men's field event records soft?

Postby tandfman » Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:16 am

I don't think any of them are soft, but I wouldn't be surprised if a couple of them are broken in the next decade. Triple jump could be the first.
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Re: Are any men's field event records soft?

Postby gh » Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:32 am

PV is tough not only because they're chasing Bubka, but also because they're vaulting on the smaller pegs. IAAF upgefucked (IMHO) by not declaring new records when they did that.

mTJ? I'd call that one of the hardest. I've seen some great talents, but nobody who ever attacked the event like Edwards did (and still has like an 8-inch/20cm lead over No. 2 on the ATL)

world TJ (with the closest guy in the new millennium being more than a foot behind)
18.29 60-¼ Jonathan Edwards (Great Britain) 8/07/95
18.16 59-7 Edwards ! 8/07/95
18.09 59-4¼ Kenny Harrison (US) 7/27/96
18.01 59-1¼ Edwards 7/09/98
18.00 59-¾ Edwards 8/27/95
17.99 59-¼ Harrison ! 7/27/96
Edwards 8/23/98
17.98 59-0 Edwards 7/18/95
Teddy Tamgho (France) 6/12/10
17.97 58-11½ Willie Banks (US) 6/16/85
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
17.96 58-11¼ Christian Taylor (US) 9/04/11
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Re: Are any men's field event records soft?

Postby tandfman » Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:37 am

Yes, mTJ is hard, but if you believe all the Brits' accounts, Tamgho had some monster fouls in Brum. If he's back at the top of his game, and still improving, I can see him breaking the record.

Yes, the shortening of the pegs made the pv tougher, but banning Volzing may have had an even bigger impact.
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Re: Are any men's field event records soft?

Postby Dave » Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:39 am

26mi235 wrote:
Dave wrote:The newest one is from 1996 so I suspect none are at risk. Lavillenie could potentially challenge 6.15. Otherwise they all look safe for the foreseeable future.


Lavillenie did not clear 5.62 today in what was a pretty mediocre PV given the participants (one over 5.72, two other NHs.


I saw him at Pre, he looked like he was ready to try something big.
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Re: Are any men's field event records soft?

Postby pickle47 » Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:41 am

A few posters seem to think the men's LJ is a little soft. They think there's a guy floating around out there right now that could take it down. :wink:
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Re: Are any men's field event records soft?

Postby Dave » Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:44 am

Today's HJ indicates that 2.46 is attainable.
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Re: Are any men's field event records soft?

Postby eldanielfire » Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:47 pm

Dave wrote:Today's HJ indicates that 2.46 is attainable.



I agree. So the HJ, the TJ and the javelin in the right conditions?
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Re: Are any men's field event records soft?

Postby Tuariki » Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:20 pm

There is no such thing as a soft world record
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Re: Are any men's field event records soft?

Postby odelltrclan » Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:32 pm

gh wrote:PV is tough not only because they're chasing Bubka, but also because they're vaulting on the smaller pegs. IAAF upgefucked (IMHO) by not declaring new records when they did that.


I don't think so. This logic is flawed. This would only apply if the records were aided by the shorter pegs. There is a compilation in YouTube of all his outdoor world record vaults and virtually all of them were clean clearances. Some with sizeable margins. Even his 6.14 clearance looks to be clean. So the IAAF made the correct decision.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlnAFsMh44g

I don't believe this is a copyrighted video so it should pass. If not, please remove it.
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Re: Are any men's field event records soft?

Postby tandfman » Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:51 pm

I don't know this for a fact, but someone once told me that Bubka volzed one of his clearances below the world record height when he set the current WR.
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Re: Are any men's field event records soft?

Postby AFTERBURNER » Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:28 pm

Can anybody explain what is Volzing? I why it is not allowed.

Thanks in advance
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Re: Are any men's field event records soft?

Postby aaronk » Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:39 pm

AFTERBURNER wrote:Can anybody explain what is Volzing? I why it is not allowed.

Thanks in advance


I'm sure someone more technically and rules oriented can (and will!!) do a better job explaining it, but here's my take.

There was an American vaulter....pretty good.....named Dave Volz......back in the 80's??
I think he cleared a height one time...and he nicked the bar, and the bar was wobbling, so he put his hand out to steady it.
The bar stayed on, but people thought it was cheating.......maybe that's too strong a word!!......so touching the bar with your hands was outlawed.

Touching the bar to steady it became known as "Volzing"......named after Dave Volz!!

What a legacy, eh?! :shock:
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Re: Are any men's field event records soft?

Postby Pego » Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:41 pm

AFTERBURNER wrote:Can anybody explain what is Volzing? I why it is not allowed.

Thanks in advance


Steadying the bar with the hand(s). Named after David Volz, who did it in a rather admirable style :D .
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Re: Are any men's field event records soft?

Postby tandfman » Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:09 pm

aaronk wrote:There was an American vaulter....pretty good.....named Dave Volz......back in the 80's??
I think he cleared a height one time...and he nicked the bar, and the bar was wobbling, so he put his hand out to steady it.
The bar stayed on, but people thought it was cheating.......maybe that's too strong a word!!......so touching the bar with your hands was outlawed.

It was not just one time. That became a regular technique, not only for Volz but for many other vaulters of that era.

It was barred because some people did think it was cheating. I never thought so. As long as it was legal, to me it wasn't cheating at all--it was just a technique that, if you were skillful enough, could help you to clear the bar without having it fall down. I saw that as a refinement of the technique of the event, and I did not think it should have been banned.
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Re: Are any men's field event records soft?

Postby Pego » Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:24 pm

tandfman wrote:I never thought so.


I never thought there was anything wrong with it either.
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Re: Are any men's field event records soft?

Postby gh » Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:35 pm

odelltrclan wrote:
gh wrote:PV is tough not only because they're chasing Bubka, but also because they're vaulting on the smaller pegs. IAAF upgefucked (IMHO) by not declaring new records when they did that.


I don't think so. This logic is flawed. This would only apply if the records were aided by the shorter pegs. There is a compilation in YouTube of all his outdoor world record vaults and virtually all of them were clean clearances. Some with sizeable margins. Even his 6.14 clearance looks to be clean. So the IAAF made the correct decision.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlnAFsMh44g

I don't believe this is a copyrighted video so it should pass. If not, please remove it.


The WR height itself isn't necessarily the issue; would he have made all the heights prior to that with shorter pegs? I don't know the answer one way or another, but it's all part of the equation, and unless he was completely clean on every clearance en route to the WR, then there's an element of doubt.
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Re: Are any men's field event records soft?

Postby Marlow » Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:12 pm

Shorter pegs, rounded crossbar ends, no-volzing . . . it really seems as though the IAAF is trying to protect Bubka's records! Since it was a level-playing field before these new rules came into being, I really can't understand how they think these rules make the event 'fairer'.
The PV is plenty hard to begin with; making stupid rules only made a fan-favorite event less fun (i.e., more misses). Oh well, eventually pole technology (post-carbon) will push the WR up a bit further and life will go on.
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Re: Are any men's field event records soft?

Postby kuha » Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:26 pm

Marlow wrote:Oh well, eventually pole technology (post-carbon) will push the WR up a bit further and life will go on.


Oh, come on--you're thinking way too conventionally! Get out of that conceptual shoebox! The record will really go up when hydraulic leg and 12-foot arm transplants become common. I can't wait!
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Re: Are any men's field event records soft?

Postby Daisy » Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:45 pm

kuha wrote:
Marlow wrote:Oh well, eventually pole technology (post-carbon) will push the WR up a bit further and life will go on.


Oh, come on--you're thinking way too conventionally! Get out of that conceptual shoebox! The record will really go up when hydraulic leg and 12-foot arm transplants become common. I can't wait!

I thought that genetic engineering was going to be the solution? It's imminent, I'm told.
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Re: Are any men's field event records soft?

Postby gh » Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:08 pm

tandfman wrote:
aaronk wrote:There was an American vaulter....pretty good.....named Dave Volz......back in the 80's??
I think he cleared a height one time...and he nicked the bar, and the bar was wobbling, so he put his hand out to steady it.
The bar stayed on, but people thought it was cheating.......maybe that's too strong a word!!......so touching the bar with your hands was outlawed.

It was not just one time. That became a regular technique, not only for Volz but for many other vaulters of that era.

It was barred because some people did think it was cheating. I never thought so. As long as it was legal, to me it wasn't cheating at all--it was just a technique that, if you were skillful enough, could help you to clear the bar without having it fall down. I saw that as a refinement of the technique of the event, and I did not think it should have been banned.


I thought that successful Volzing was a very impressive bit of athleticism, and wouldn't have had any trouble with not making a rule against it. But I would add that the situation was a little more serious than just "steadying" the bar. There were certainly occasions where people were good enough to replace a bar that had been clearly knocked off, not just wiggling.

I'm not sure I've ever heard the IAAF rationale for the shorter-pegs decision. Another head-scratching dumb move from where I sit. Few things thrill fans more than vertical-jump makes. The sport needs more of them, not fewer. In an era where the IAAF is supposed to be making the sport more appealing to the general fan, why reduce the success rate?

Hell, I'd even vote for allowing 4 attempts at each height if it weren't for how that would also rewrite the event completely.
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Re: Are any men's field event records soft?

Postby odelltrclan » Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:29 pm

gh wrote:The WR height itself isn't necessarily the issue; would he have made all the heights prior to that with shorter pegs? I don't know the answer one way or another, but it's all part of the equation, and unless he was completely clean on every clearance en route to the WR, then there's an element of doubt.


That doubt has to be diminished by whether any of those close makes were first or second attempts as well. I just think the whole idea of throwing out the PV records would be akin to throwing the baby out with the bath water. Unless you can check every competition, and every height made during the competition, you very likely end up throwing out legitimate performances and records. Bubka was the best the event has seen to date, period. There is a reason the records have lasted this long other than the pegs or Volzing.

I hated when they changed the Javelin and erased an entire history of performances and performers from the record books. I seriously doubt the decision had anything to do with trying to protect Bubka, as others mentioned.

It would be interesting to see if there are statistics to support a drastic change of results in the event before and after the change. If there are some published somewhere, and someone knows about this, please provide a link.
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Re: Are any men's field event records soft?

Postby lonewolf » Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:05 pm

Tuariki wrote:There is no such thing as a soft world record

Amen!
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Re: Are any men's field event records soft?

Postby Dave » Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:44 pm

lonewolf wrote:
Tuariki wrote:There is no such thing as a soft world record

Amen!


Perhaps I should have asked if any of the WRs were at risk. That is pretty much how people responded.
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Re: Are any men's field event records soft?

Postby k3ck3c » Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:39 am

Dave wrote:
26mi235 wrote:
Dave wrote:The newest one is from 1996 so I suspect none are at risk. Lavillenie could potentially challenge 6.15. Otherwise they all look safe for the foreseeable future.


Lavillenie did not clear 5.62 today in what was a pretty mediocre PV given the participants (one over 5.72, two other NHs.


I saw him at Pre, he looked like he was ready to try something big.


Lavillenie had a bad day in Lausanne. He said

the conditions were poor, with a bad wind, but this is no excuse. I jumped badly and was unable to "find my last steps".It is frustrating.

More or less the translation from
http://www.lequipe.fr/Athletisme/Actual ... nte/383666

extract
«Le vent, ce n'est pas une excuse. Ça fait chier mais à aucun moment je n'ai su trouver mes dernières foulées et mes dernières intentions. C'est frustrant»
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Re: Are any men's field event records soft?

Postby Tuariki » Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:07 am

Dave wrote:
lonewolf wrote:
Tuariki wrote:There is no such thing as a soft world record

Amen!


Perhaps I should have asked if any of the WRs were at risk. That is pretty much how people responded.

Certainly not IMO any of the throws or the LJ. HJ - given Lausanne I guess that is a yes. However, I think there is more potential for the PV and TJ to be broken, although I do not expect any of them to be broken this year.
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Re: Are any men's field event records soft?

Postby Cooter Brown » Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:36 am

odelltrclan wrote:I don't think so. This logic is flawed. This would only apply if the records were aided by the shorter pegs. There is a compilation in YouTube of all his outdoor world record vaults and virtually all of them were clean clearances. Some with sizeable margins. Even his 6.14 clearance looks to be clean. So the IAAF made the correct decision.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlnAFsMh44g

I don't believe this is a copyrighted video so it should pass. If not, please remove it.


It's more complicated than that. You don't see his progression to 6.14. There's a video on youtube of the entire competition when Bubka set the indoor 6.15 WR. With shorter pegs and no volzing, he would've no heighted at 5.70. His 3rd attempt he fell right on the bar, hit it very hard and held it on. He was then clean at 590, 600, and 615 but none would've happened with the current rules.
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Re: Are any men's field event records soft?

Postby Marlow » Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:03 am

Daisy wrote:
kuha wrote:
Marlow wrote:Oh well, eventually pole technology (post-carbon) will push the WR up a bit further and life will go on.

Oh, come on--you're thinking way too conventionally! Get out of that conceptual shoebox! The record will really go up when hydraulic leg and 12-foot arm transplants become common. I can't wait!

I thought that genetic engineering was going to be the solution? It's imminent, I'm told.

Patience, mon frère, it's coming . . . :D
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Re: Are any men's field event records soft?

Postby kuha » Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:29 am

Marlow wrote:Patience, mon frère, it's coming . . . :D


http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archi ... nt/277519/
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Re: Are any men's field event records soft?

Postby Pego » Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:29 am

kuha wrote:
Marlow wrote:Patience, mon frère, it's coming . . . :D


http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archi ... nt/277519/


The major problem is that the central nervous system axons do not regenerate, even the myelin sheet does not (as numerous multiple sclerosis sufferers would understand). Stem cells might possibly assist here sometimes in the future.
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Re: Are any men's field event records soft?

Postby Marlow » Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:36 am

kuha wrote:
Marlow wrote:Patience, mon frère, it's coming . . . :D

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archi ... nt/277519/

Viktor, the Creature lost his head again. Those bolts keep working loose . . . :shock:
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Re: Are any men's field event records soft?

Postby user4 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 9:14 am

odelltrclan wrote:I don't think so. This logic is flawed. This would only apply if the records were aided by the shorter pegs. There is a compilation in YouTube of all his outdoor world record vaults and virtually all of them were clean clearances. Some with sizeable margins. Even his 6.14 clearance looks to be clean. So the IAAF made the correct decision.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlnAFsMh44g

I don't believe this is a copyrighted video so it should pass. If not, please remove it.



The scary thing... looking at Bubka, he seems to be built more for the decathlon than the PV. A shame he never found his real potential :)
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Re: Are any men's field event records soft?

Postby AFTERBURNER » Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:38 am

Odelltrclan wrote:

I hated when they changed the javelin.

I'm with you on that one a million percent!
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Re: Are any men's field event records soft?

Postby berkeley » Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:32 pm

Cooter Brown wrote:
odelltrclan wrote:I don't think so. This logic is flawed. This would only apply if the records were aided by the shorter pegs. There is a compilation in YouTube of all his outdoor world record vaults and virtually all of them were clean clearances. Some with sizeable margins. Even his 6.14 clearance looks to be clean. So the IAAF made the correct decision.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlnAFsMh44g

I don't believe this is a copyrighted video so it should pass. If not, please remove it.


It's more complicated than that. You don't see his progression to 6.14. There's a video on youtube of the entire competition when Bubka set the indoor 6.15 WR. With shorter pegs and no volzing, he would've no heighted at 5.70. His 3rd attempt he fell right on the bar, hit it very hard and held it on. He was then clean at 590, 600, and 615 but none would've happened with the current rules.

Possibly, but I think most of his records would be there even with today's rules, he would still be the WR holder and by far the greatest ever vaulter.
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Re: Are any men's field event records soft?

Postby berkeley » Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:33 pm

AFTERBURNER wrote:Odelltrclan wrote:

I hated when they changed the javelin.

I'm with you on that one a million percent!

Me too, especially since Petranoff's 327-0 is one of the very few WRs I have witnessed live, and that memory now has an annoying asterisk beside it.
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Re: Are any men's field event records soft?

Postby berkeley » Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:41 pm

Dave wrote:Today's HJ indicates that 2.46 is attainable.

Agree - Barshim and Bondarenko are both young, and both have room for improvement technically. I know Bondarenko is 1.98m tall, but his 2.41 clearance looked to me like a 2.30 jump. He can handle a lot of speed, takes off as far from the bar as Holm, and if he could achieve Holm's arch and timing he would easily have another 5 cm.
Looking at his bio, he jumped very high at 16/17, but there's a big dark patch around 2010. Was he injured ?
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Re: Are any men's field event records soft?

Postby Flumpy » Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:05 pm

I think Tamgho can get the TJ WR and relatively soon.
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