First women under 2:00.0 in the 800m?


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First women under 2:00.0 in the 800m?

Postby lovetorun » Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:14 am

In the wake of Mary Cain's new American junior and high school 800m record...and also the first American in those categories under 2:00.0, I was trying to remember who the first women under 2:00.0 was and also the first American under 2:00.0?

Also, would like to know the race, circumstance and time of these firsts.

It's one of the things I love about this board...someone out there can always answer these questions...
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Re: First women under 2:00.0 in the 800m?

Postby LopenUupunut » Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:39 am

Sin Kim Dan did it twice (1:59.1 and 1:58.0) in '63 and '64 respectively, but IAAF didn't ratify those marks. Hildegard Falck ran 1:58.45 at the '71 West German championships in Stuttgart, improving Vera Nikolić's official WR of 2:00.5 by a huge chunk, so she was the one who took the WR under 2:00. The first American was '68 Oly champ Madeline Manning-Jackson, who ran 1:59.81 at the '76 Oly Trials in Eugene.

Yes, I had to look some bits up :wink:
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Re: First women under 2:00.0 in the 800m?

Postby lovetorun » Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:47 pm

Thank you... a good thorough answer.
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Re: First women under 2:00.0 in the 800m?

Postby Master Po » Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:50 pm

LopenUupunut wrote:Sin Kim Dan did it twice (1:59.1 and 1:58.0) in '63 and '64 respectively, but IAAF didn't ratify those marks. Hildegard Falck ran 1:58.45 at the '71 West German championships in Stuttgart, improving Vera Nikolić's official WR of 2:00.5 by a huge chunk, so she was the one who took the WR under 2:00. The first American was '68 Oly champ Madeline Manning-Jackson, who ran 1:59.81 at the '76 Oly Trials in Eugene.

Yes, I had to look some bits up :wink:


Thanks for the contribution, LopenUupunut! One of the things I appreciate about these historical threads is the education it provides. :) Among the other things I didn't know about this topic, I had never heard of Sin Kim Dan. A bit from wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shin_Geum-Dan
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Re: First women under 2:00.0 in the 800m?

Postby gh » Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:56 pm

the modern transliteration we use is Shin Geum Dan
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Re: First women under 2:00.0 in the 800m?

Postby batonless relay » Thu Jun 06, 2013 5:15 pm

Ok, I was just reading the wikipedia article getting upset that politics of war had prevented Shin from getting the WR and then ... it turns out that Shin may not have qualified for the womens record in the first place? :? If so, how would Shin be considered first?
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Re: First women under 2:00.0 in the 800m?

Postby LopenUupunut » Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:05 am

The operative word there is "may" :) For some or other reason, women's 800 has attracted no end of rumors about various runners being biologically male; rumors aren't evidence, though, and are completely baseless as often as not.

Caster Semenya's gender has been questioned even by IAAF, but she's still the 2009 World Champion. Half the people in the crowd at Helsinki '83 called Kratochvílová "Jarmo", but she still holds the WR. The same logic applies to Sin/Shin: you don't throw her achievements out based on mere rumors, solid evidence is required.
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Re: First women under 2:00.0 in the 800m?

Postby Olli » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:55 am

I am afraid I was one of those cheering for "Jarmo" then.

BUT – isn't there one essential difference between her time and both Shin's and Semenya's? Namely, in the 80s all female athletes were routinely gender-tested (on the basis of chromosomes, I think). Hence, nobody could seriously suspect that Kratochvilova is male, however masculine she may have looked.
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Re: First women under 2:00.0 in the 800m?

Postby unclezadok » Fri Jun 07, 2013 2:06 pm

How can anyone possibly not believe reports coming out of N. Korea?
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Re: First women under 2:00.0 in the 800m?

Postby vencio2 » Sat Jun 08, 2013 1:58 am

the sin kim dan 'not being a woman' story feels like it was just simply a viscious story put forward by many people who couldn't stomach the thought of a woman from asia/communist bloc beating the WR. of course, she is an enigma as so little is known about her. there are vague newspaper stories of an old korean man claiming that she was his long-lost son. but i also recall reports that said she got married and had kids. fascinating as she should be one of the great figures of athletics history but because she's from this shadowy regime we know nothing about her and just dismiss her as 'another of those women of dubious gender'. i'm not even sure if shes still alive or not. she had great times at 400m too.
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Re: First women under 2:00.0 in the 800m?

Postby bambam » Sat Jun 08, 2013 1:19 pm

Yeah, I'd be careful about that Wikipedia story. Gender problems need to be confirmed and not just rumours. In one of his earliest editions, David Wallechinsky hoted that Iolanda Balas was suspected of being a man. I pointed out to him that she got married and had children and he later took it out. But those rumours get out there a lot.
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Re: First women under 2:00.0 in the 800m?

Postby Olli » Sat Jun 08, 2013 11:08 pm

bambam wrote:... that Iolanda Balas was suspected of being a man. I pointed out to him that she got married and had children and he later took it out.


Are you sure Balas has had children? I have never heard of that and cannot find any sources confirming it.
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Re: First women under 2:00.0 in the 800m?

Postby bambam » Sun Jun 09, 2013 4:08 am

Olli wrote:
bambam wrote:... that Iolanda Balas was suspected of being a man. I pointed out to him that she got married and had children and he later took it out.


Are you sure Balas has had children? I have never heard of that and cannot find any sources confirming it.


Maybe I'm wrong but I was pretty certain I had heard that
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Re: First women under 2:00.0 in the 800m?

Postby Olli » Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:00 am

On the other hand, several sources state that Ewa Klobukowska had a son. If this is true, she was a real victim of chromosome tests.
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Re: First women under 2:00.0 in the 800m?

Postby catson52 » Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:49 am

Olli wrote:On the other hand, several sources state that Ewa Klobukowska had a son. If this is true, she was a real victim of chromosome tests.


Leaving aside that aspect of things, her run in the 400m relay final at Budapest (1966) remains the ultimate expression of power running.
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Re: First women under 2:00.0 in the 800m?

Postby bambam » Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:54 pm

Olli wrote:On the other hand, several sources state that Ewa Klobukowska had a son. If this is true, she was a real victim of chromosome tests.


Its an impossible problem to know the answer to. When I have talked to urologists about this, they say the whole aspect of mixed gender is unbelievably complicated and difficult to sort out.
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