Historical Evolution of the High Jump


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Historical Evolution of the High Jump

Postby pinoyathletics » Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:51 am

Historical Evolution of the High Jump clearance techniques with Diagrams

http://pinoyathletics.com/2012/09/16/evolution-of-the-high-jump/
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Re: Historical Evolution of the High Jump

Postby Per Andersen » Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:16 pm

pinoyathletics wrote:Historical Evolution of the High Jump clearance techniques with Diagrams

http://pinoyathletics.com/2012/09/16/evolution-of-the-high-jump/

A bit rudimentary though. Some of the picture series are poorly made. Especially the Eastern Cut-off sequence where picture #6 does not belong or is just extremely badly done.
Similarly # 5 in the Western roll sequence is poorly made. It does not follow #4 + it does not resemble anything. Just terrible.

The straddle sequence looks like a copy of a series I have seen of Brumel, except #4-5 in the sequence are way off.

On the other hand I did like the western roll photo of Mary Bignal (Rand). Hadn't seen it for ages.
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Re: Historical Evolution of the High Jump

Postby noone » Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:03 pm

I just wish Debbie Brill got some credit for the "flop" (in Canada we called it the Brill Bend) -- to say one solitary American invented it is ludicrous!
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Re: Historical Evolution of the High Jump

Postby lonewolf » Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:11 pm

noone wrote:I just wish Debbie Brill got some credit for the "flop" (in Canada we called it the Brill Bend) -- to say one solitary American invented it is ludicrous!


I saw Debbie flopping in the Calgary Indoor in winter 1968. She reportedly developed the style on her own prior to the Mexico Olympics...and, yes, they were calling it the "Brill Bend".
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Re: Historical Evolution of the High Jump

Postby Daisy » Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:17 pm

From what I remember in previous threads they developed the technique independently. I guess Fosbury gets all the credit as he was the best known of the two.

Here is very cool footage from 66: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoYRGQlfHQA
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Re: Historical Evolution of the High Jump

Postby noone » Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:28 pm

Daisy wrote:From what I remember in previous threads they developed the technique independently. I guess Fosbury gets all the credit as he was the best known of the two.

Here is very cool footage from 66: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoYRGQlfHQA


Yes very cool! Thanks!
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Re: Historical Evolution of the High Jump

Postby Per Andersen » Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:51 pm

Daisy wrote:From what I remember in previous threads they developed the technique independently. I guess Fosbury gets all the credit as he was the best known of the two.

That's it.
Another question is how the Brill bend would have caught on as a HJ technique if Fosbury never existed. Unlike Fosbury Brill did not initially have great success. She was top ranked in 1979 and set her indoor WR in 1982.
Would her technique spread like wildfire as Fosbury's technique did? No. It would have taken a good deal longer.
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Re: Historical Evolution of the High Jump

Postby gh » Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:13 am

Fosbury and Brill indeed had parallel evolution, geographically close yet with no knowledge of each other.

But as we "proved" with photo evidence in T&FN, neither of them was first. Guy named Bruce Quande (off the top of my head) used what was clearly the same technique at the '63 Montana HS meet.

And my HS coach said he saw a guy in Germany in the '30s do basically the same thing.

The provenance is indeed murky.
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Re: Historical Evolution of the High Jump

Postby noone » Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:29 am

I've been wondering if anybody still uses the straddle nowadays. Has the straddle WR been improved upon since the days of Yashchenko?
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Re: Historical Evolution of the High Jump

Postby gh » Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:42 am

The Bruce Quande '63 "flop" story is now posted on the front page.
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Re: Historical Evolution of the High Jump

Postby Daisy » Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:11 pm

Interesting article. Especially this quote from Brill:
If we had had 'coaching', we wouldn't have developed our styles. We'd have had to jump the 'accepted' way, which was the straddle.
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Re: Historical Evolution of the High Jump

Postby Marlow » Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:35 pm

Daisy wrote:Interesting article. Especially this quote from Brill:
If we had had 'coaching', we wouldn't have developed our styles. We'd have had to jump the 'accepted' way, which was the straddle.

Not true. Bernie Wagner gave up early on Fosbury's straddle and encouraged him to flop.
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Re: Historical Evolution of the High Jump

Postby Per Andersen » Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:48 pm

Marlow wrote:
Daisy wrote:Interesting article. Especially this quote from Brill:
If we had had 'coaching', we wouldn't have developed our styles. We'd have had to jump the 'accepted' way, which was the straddle.

Not true. Bernie Wagner gave up early on Fosbury's straddle and encouraged him to flop.


I think Brill was thinking more about her own development. She had no coaching from age 9 until she was 13/14. By then, 1966/67, she was already backwards jumping.
Her first technique was a straight-on forward jump with bent legs. The only advice she took was to switch to the scissors. After that her technical development was very similar to Fosbury's.
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Re: Historical Evolution of the High Jump

Postby gh » Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:04 am

Deb's statement is also true in the sense that Wagner gave up relatively late in the game with Fosbury. His lack of coaching went on for too many years for him to be able to consider changing later.
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Re: Historical Evolution of the High Jump

Postby pinoyathletics » Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:37 pm

Thankyou very much for everyones feedback. I will implement some of these constructive feedbacks and critcisims into a revision of this article. I do appreciate the input as High Jump is not my field of expertise as I was a sprinter. This article enjoyed over 1000 views in 2 days.
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Re: Historical Evolution of the High Jump

Postby Per Andersen » Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:11 pm

pinoyathletics wrote:Thankyou very much for everyones feedback. I will implement some of these constructive feedbacks and critcisims into a revision of this article. I do appreciate the input as High Jump is not my field of expertise as I was a sprinter. This article enjoyed over 1000 views in 2 days.

Then I'll just add that I disagree withe following statement regarding the straddle:
"The Russian and Americans pioneered the evolution of the straddle technique"

American high jumpers were the first to utilize both the straight leg straddle and the dive straddle.
However, what mostly influenced Russian straddlers were the Swedish dive staddlers of the early-mid 50's.
While American straddlers had gradually slowed down the speed of the approach run, culminating with Dumas in 1956, the Swedes started using a longer and faster run-up and focussed mostly on the bent leg dive straddle (Bengt Nilsson world's #2 and Euro champ in 1954). This is what influenced the Russians. They added even more speed and utilized power (weight) training to a greater degree.
Brumel did not RADICALLY speed up his approach run. He just ran faster that anybody up until then.
Yashchenko was even faster than Brumel.
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Re: Historical Evolution of the High Jump

Postby Daisy » Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:48 pm

gh wrote:The Bruce Quande '63 "flop" story is now posted on the front page.

And now the 'Landis Leap' from 62 is on the front page.
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Re: Historical Evolution of the High Jump

Postby Marlow » Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:58 am

Daisy wrote:
gh wrote:The Bruce Quande '63 "flop" story is now posted on the front page.

And now the 'Landis Leap' from 62 is on the front page.

Here's betting that MANY jumpers, going way back, experimented (and competed) with 'backwards' jumping styles. Brill and Bend came at about the same time, but Fosbury will always be the 'inventor' because he (like others) evolved it alone, but then (unlike others) brought it world-wide renown.
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Re: Historical Evolution of the High Jump

Postby Daisy » Tue Jun 04, 2013 5:55 am

Marlow wrote:Here's betting that MANY jumpers, going way back, experimented (and competed) with 'backwards' jumping styles.

May be not too many, since most would have been landing blind onto the ground. Interestingly, Landis had a tactic of waiting as late as possible to enter the competition.

Landis made up his new style admittedly by flying by the seat of his pants, which is what he would land on before the days of foam padding on the other side of the bar. He even missed the sawdust pit entirely on a couple of leaps.

As a result, he almost always would wait until nearly everybody else had maxed out before attempting his first and jump, in order to minimize the damage to his back.

http://www.mcall.com/sports/varsity/mc- ... full.story
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Re: Historical Evolution of the High Jump

Postby marknhj » Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:22 am

The closest early true "flop" technique I've seen is on the video that was posted here recently with some guy doing a standing flop into a sandpit in 1905.

It's unlikely that anyone has done a full-approach "flop"-like jump into a flat sandpit, with a true neck/shoulder/back rotational landing, multiple times, and survived unscathed (ie broken neck, paralysis, death).

I bet many have gone over with some form of back layout but it is not flopping. In fact, that's how I started - a modified scissors with an accidental back layout and a heel/hand, ass, back sequence of landing (into a raised sandpit with a small 6" thick mat, I think). I jumped 1.93m with this DIY technique before learning how to flop.
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Re: Historical Evolution of the High Jump

Postby Per Andersen » Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:43 pm

I don't understand the picture if this guy claims he took off from his left foot. We can't see his head but I think he was jumping in a lay-back scissor style like Mark describes. Something like Bob Barksdale who jumped around 6-9 with such a technique. In that technique you could come off the bar with the upper body lower than the legs but it was not flopping.

Why are they talking about the straddle at all in the article? He must have jumped from his outside foot.

Either the photo is somehow reversed or he took off on his right foot. He just can't be in that position (in that photo) if he took off on his left foot.
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Re: Historical Evolution of the High Jump

Postby Dave » Sat Jun 08, 2013 8:11 am

I know that by the mid 60's, bags of foam rubber were common place in US high school pits. When were they likely to have appeared at higher levels.

As people are pointing out, it was obviously not safe to land on the back in sawdust.
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Re: Historical Evolution of the High Jump

Postby Jackaloupe » Sat Jun 08, 2013 6:22 pm

Look upthread and you'll see mention of the mid-50s, as I experienced at USC and elsewhere in the SoCal area.
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Re: Historical Evolution of the High Jump

Postby jhc68 » Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:24 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qTAeVGl_e8&feature=youtu.be

Modern video or some old-timey jumping styles (eastern cut-off?)
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Re: Historical Evolution of the High Jump

Postby noone » Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:11 am

I am surprised no one has mentioned Bob Avant, who of course had a style all of his own.

I am NOT a coach, and I have never studied kinanthropology (study of man in motion), but I do have a theory, namely:

-Lift is greatly improved by speed (that is why the standing high jump and pole vault records are far inferior to the those with running starts).
-One needs to convert that speed to lift. This is accomplished naturally not only in the LJ but also in the PV. But in the flop phase of the HJ the athlete loses speed when (s)he turns, since it is clearly not possible to run sideways or backwards as fast as forward.
-Therefore if you accept the first 2 statements as true, it follows that ideally a jumper should approach the bar at a 90 degree angle, at high speed, IF (very big if) he can fins a way to drape his body over the bar.

The fact that Avant was only moderately successful may explain why his style was not copied as was Brumel's or later Fosbury's, but of course it is not conclusive proof that it was inferior. Maybe all it would take is a slightly taller jumper, a faster runner, a better "drape" or a combination of all those factors.
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Re: Historical Evolution of the High Jump

Postby jhc68 » Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:22 pm

Lots of Avant discussion at the High Jump History Questions thread... scroll way down on this forum.
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Re: Historical Evolution of the High Jump

Postby JayIsMe » Fri Jun 14, 2013 10:44 am

Dave wrote:I know that by the mid 60's, bags of foam rubber were common place in US high school pits. When were they likely to have appeared at higher levels.


A couple of illustrations from a blog in my local paper. This high schooler was a 6'8" straddler in 1973. Note the grass take off areas and the high-tech footwear. The third link is the local JC polevault pit during the same period. IIRC old airline seats were frequently used as pit material.

http://running.blogs.pressdemocrat.com/files/2013/06/Tom-Buzzard-1973.jpg

http://running.blogs.pressdemocrat.com/files/2013/06/Tom-Buzzard-73.jpg

http://running.blogs.pressdemocrat.com/files/2013/06/1977-JH-Champ-7-6.jpg
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Re: Historical Evolution of the High Jump

Postby jhc68 » Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:50 pm

I certainly saw lots of net covered sponge pits like those pictured.
The most life-threatening, though were inflatable pits that were briefly in vogue 30-40 years ago.
If the things leaked or if the air pressure gave out at the wrong time jumpers would land flat on the undersurface.
Another problem was the if you landed in the wrong spot on the balloon pit the thing would expand laterally and jostle the standard so the landing dislodged the bar.
Try explaining to a clueless volunteer official that such a jump was not a miss!
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Re: Historical Evolution of the High Jump

Postby Dave » Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:54 pm

jhc68 wrote:I certainly saw lots of net covered sponge pits like those pictured.
The most life-threatening, though were inflatable pits that were briefly in vogue 30-40 years ago.
If the things leaked or if the air pressure gave out at the wrong time jumpers would land flat on the undersurface.
Another problem was the if you landed in the wrong spot on the balloon pit the thing would expand laterally and jostle the standard so the landing dislodged the bar.
Try explaining to a clueless volunteer official that such a jump was not a miss!


I remember vaulting on those in grade school. They were great fun and life threatening.

Yes. They had pole vaulting in the grade schools in Ft. Wayne in the 60s.
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Re: Historical Evolution of the High Jump

Postby Jackaloupe » Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:51 pm

no one:Therefore if you accept the first 2 statements as true, it follows that ideally a jumper should approach the bar at a 90 degree angle, at high speed, IF (very big if) he can fins a way to drape his body over the bar.

No, no one, You're totally missing the key advantage of the Fosbury revolution: Not the backwards clearance per se, but the takeoff on the opposite foot, w/ a variant on Bob Barksdale's related technique. It's the conversion of Angular Momentum (Centrifugal Force) generated during that last 3 curving steps or so--whatever the tradeoff of somewhat slower forward speed. You simply won't see a successful Flopper who doesn't properly negotiate the curve.
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Re: Historical Evolution of the High Jump

Postby jhc68 » Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:24 pm

Aussie Tony Sneazwell straddling into a mountain of sawdust...

http://www.t3licensing.com/video/clip/48050225_9300.do
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