Wilbur Ross' predictions for ultimate 110H


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Wilbur Ross' predictions for ultimate 110H

Postby TrackCEO » Tue Jul 11, 2006 9:27 pm

I'm kicking myself for having given away (many years ago) my first edition of Wilbur Ross' "The Hurdler's Bible." In a chapter near the end, Coach Ross laid out some "ultimate" times in all hurdle events. This was an era when hand-timed marks were OK for WRs.

I vaguely recall him saying 13.0 was the ultimate for the 110s.

Now we have Liu's 12.88, more or less equivalent to a 12.7 hand-time.

Wonder what old Wilbur would say about that?

K E N
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Postby oneill » Wed Jul 12, 2006 7:58 pm

He'd be embarrassed.

Brutus Hamilton, a silver medalist in the 1920 Olympic Decathlon and a very successful track coach (Olympic T & F coach in 1952) admitted that he had once been so unwise as to list, in a newspaper interview sometime around 1940, the "ultimates" in a number of events, marks which were unattainable - Four-minute mile, seven-foot HJ, etc. Every one of those ultimates had been exceeded by 1956, but as each mark fell, Brutus would be interviewed all over again, and embarrassed. "Stupidest thing " that he'd ever done, he said.
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Postby gh » Wed Jul 12, 2006 8:54 pm

Yeah, but was also dumb enough to issue an updated version!
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Postby Powell » Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:30 pm

While I'm not into imposing limits on human achievements in T&F, I believe 110mH is pretty close to the limit. The fixed space between the hurdles doesn't allow for much more speed as it limits the stride length (there is no realistic alternative to doing 3 strides between hurdles). It's no accident that there's been no big improvement in the WR since 1981 and the density at the top of the all time list is increasing. The best runners are already very close to perfection.
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Postby eldrick » Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:42 pm

cj's 7.30i indicates a hurdle time of ~ 12.86 outdoors ( & with the right "favorable" wind, a time close o 12.80 coudn't be excluded ), so i still believe there is some meat to carve off this bone
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Postby Powell » Wed Jul 12, 2006 11:18 pm

eldrick wrote:cj's 7.30i indicates a hurdle time of ~ 12.86 outdoors ( & with the right "favorable" wind, a time close o 12.80 coudn't be excluded )


What you're still failing to get is that you can't apply wind conversions from flat sprints to the high hurdles. For someone with that sort of speed, "favorable" wind won't really be favorable - it will push the runner into the hurdles.
I'm not saying the record can't be improved at all, ever. I'm just saying I can't see any major breakthroughs. While I can imagine people eventually chopping 1/10s off the current flat sprint records, in the high hurdles it's only going to be a few 1/100s. Eventually, though, the space between the hudles will have to be increased, since the current setup is just too constricting for superfast guys.
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Postby trackworld » Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:36 am

CJ's 7.30 is awesome. The next best is 7.36 [CJ '94 & AJ '04] which is on another planet. I've never actually seen it; and it's my 'to see' list of great T&F action that I've missed

That race must've been the result of an amazing CJ start [even more amazing than his usual start] and I think that record will last much longer than his 110HH WR
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Postby eldrick » Thu Jul 13, 2006 3:00 am

Powell wrote:
eldrick wrote:cj's 7.30i indicates a hurdle time of ~ 12.86 outdoors ( & with the right "favorable" wind, a time close o 12.80 coudn't be excluded )


What you're still failing to get is that you can't apply wind conversions from flat sprints to the high hurdles. For someone with that sort of speed, "favorable" wind won't really be favorable - it will push the runner into the hurdles.
I'm not saying the record can't be improved at all, ever. I'm just saying I can't see any major breakthroughs. While I can imagine people eventually chopping 1/10s off the current flat sprint records, in the high hurdles it's only going to be a few 1/100s. Eventually, though, the space between the hudles will have to be increased, since the current setup is just too constricting for superfast guys.


ehh ???

for a start, i said "favorable" wind - i did NOT specify whether it was a +ve or a -ve one

some prefer a slight +ve one as favorable & some may prefer a slight -ve one

as for "For someone with that sort of speed, "favorable" wind won't really be favorable - it will push the runner into the hurdles" - that is a patentedly absurd assertion to apply to each/every hurdler - some may have excellent flat-speed based on short stride length but excellent frequency & may even actually be having to "reach" for the hurdle after each 3rd stride in 0 wind situations - a following wind will actually help them as it gets them nearer the hurdle without having to put in extra effort to reach it - let me think long & hard of an example...

err...

err...

LIU !!!
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Re:

Postby Daisy » Sun May 19, 2013 7:47 pm

eldrick wrote:cj's 7.30i indicates a hurdle time of ~ 12.86 outdoors ( & with the right "favorable" wind, a time close o 12.80 coudn't be excluded ), so i still believe there is some meat to carve off this bone

Obviously eldrick had Merritt in mind.
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Re: Wilbur Ross' predictions for ultimate 110H

Postby Jackaloupe » Mon May 20, 2013 10:13 pm

a following wind will actually help them as it gets them nearer the hurdle without having to put in extra effort to reach it

Excellent thinking, 'eldrick', but let's tweak that to: wind makes for less effort thruout the race.
Just as Sprinters don't accelerate after 25m or so, Hurdlers can maintain their speed w/ less effort while subtly adjusting for wind to maintain the exact same "measure" between hurdles. By the last 4 hurdles or so, they're slowing down less.

All that talk about the wind blowing them "too close" applies only to Hurdlers unable to adjust, applying the exact same drive they'd use w/ no wind. After all, a negative wind elicits extra effort to maintain speed/distance covered, thus more slowing down from fatigue (muscular more than anaerobic).

In a separate vein, a shorter Sprinter type, as mentioned above, could "step in" and excel. After all, we are talking absolutes and records, so shouldn't conflate average effects with record-breaking efforts.
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Re: Wilbur Ross' predictions for ultimate 110H

Postby Marlow » Tue May 21, 2013 3:50 am

Jackaloupe wrote:All that talk about the wind blowing them "too close" applies only to Hurdlers unable to adjust

It's not quite that simple. In order to 'go faster' all athletes naturally extend their stride length. The ones who benefit from the tailwind are those who have a shorter stride-length naturally or have such a long stride length that they've already been 'shuffling' and are good at it. The major problem happens when it's a very tight race and the athlete 'presses' and then gets to close to the hurdle (esp in tailwind situations). Since this has happened to all the very best hurdlers, I'll guess it's mostly a matter of 'restraint', which is the opposite of what elites want.
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Re: Wilbur Ross' predictions for ultimate 110H

Postby batonless relay » Tue May 21, 2013 7:07 am

Marlow wrote:...to 'go faster' all athletes naturally extend their stride length...

That's not true. "Faster" is a function of stride length and stride frequency and since the distance between the hurdles are fixed, what is needed is frequency...not length. And that is what elite hurdlers strive for. This is not only for hurdlers either; Michael Johnson's 400m stride length was probably longer than his 100m stride length and that would hold for most ["all" is such an inaccurate word to use :? ] sprinters. Glen Mills "shortened" Usain Bolt's stride from 2007 to 2008.
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Re: Wilbur Ross' predictions for ultimate 110H

Postby Marlow » Tue May 21, 2013 7:28 am

batonless relay wrote:
Marlow wrote:...to 'go faster' all athletes naturally extend their stride length...

That's not true. "Faster" is a function of stride length and stride frequency and since the distance between the hurdles are fixed, what is needed is frequency...not length.

I was speaking 'generally' and I spoke the truth. The most elite hurdlers, knowing that increased stride leads to bashing hurdles, are the rare exceptions. While it's true that Speed = SF x SL, it's much more difficult to appreciable increase SF. Hitting the weight room or doing plyos will strengthen your legs enough to increase 'push-off' aka stride-length. Adrenaline will naturally increase your stride-length too.
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Re: Wilbur Ross' predictions for ultimate 110H

Postby batonless relay » Tue May 21, 2013 7:40 am

Marlow wrote:
batonless relay wrote:
Marlow wrote:...to 'go faster' all athletes naturally extend their stride length...

That's not true. "Faster" is a function of stride length and stride frequency and since the distance between the hurdles are fixed, what is needed is frequency...not length.

I was speaking 'generally' and I spoke the truth. The most elite hurdlers, knowing that increased stride leads to bashing hurdles, are the rare exceptions. While it's true that Speed = SF x SL, it's much more difficult to appreciable increase SF. Hitting the weight room or doing plyos will strengthen your legs enough to increase 'push-off' aka stride-length. Adrenaline will naturally increase your stride-length too.

Not really "generally" when you use all, but I won't quibble beyond that. I differ a bit with you on what the purpose of plyos are (but I'm sure that's a long standing debate in the sport) but "plyos" teach the most powerful movement in the shortest period of time or should; that's frequency, no? I can see why you might be thinking length, especially as it relates to overcoming inertia (i.e. blocks...'blocking') but effectively done, it contributes more to frequency because it puts the body in a better position to apply force (when needed in the sprints; it wouldn't be in a LJ or HJ). Quickly.
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Re: Wilbur Ross' predictions for ultimate 110H

Postby Marlow » Tue May 21, 2013 9:29 am

batonless relay wrote:But I won't quibble beyond that..

Whew, that's all we seem to do! (Since I disagree with your assessment of plyos, but again I think it may just be semantics again, since we're both talking about explosive power and strength is a paramount factor in power application (with speed, which we already know is SFxSL)). In any case, back to the ur-topic, any further lowering of the 110H record will require more technical focus than pure 100m speed. I don't see it going below 12.75 in my lifetime UNLESS . . . ta da! . . . the 2-stepper finally arrives!!!! :-)
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Re: Wilbur Ross' predictions for ultimate 110H

Postby Gebrucilassie » Wed Jun 05, 2013 7:58 pm

TrackCEO wrote:I'm kicking myself for having given away (many years ago) my first edition of Wilbur Ross' "The Hurdler's Bible." In a chapter near the end, Coach Ross laid out some "ultimate" times in all hurdle events. This was an era when hand-timed marks were OK for WRs.

I vaguely recall him saying 13.0 was the ultimate for the 110s.

Now we have Liu's 12.88, more or less equivalent to a 12.7 hand-time.

Wonder what old Wilbur would say about that?

K E N

I was speaking with Brooks Johnson last fall and we were discussing Merrits 12.80. He told me Coach Ross had stated that 12.8 was the best time he could foresee in the 110's. I never read Ross's book but I have no reason to doubt Brooks.
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