Pole Vault Rule Question


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Pole Vault Rule Question

Postby Marlow » Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:31 am

I thought I knew all the rules, but can't find this specifically addressed anywhere.

If the wind blows a properly released pole back into the crossbar and the pole dislodges the bar, the official can declare it a good jump.

Yes, no, maybe so? Please cite rule and specific wording.

IAAF
USATF
NCAA
NFHS

?
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Re: Pole Vault Rule Question

Postby polevaultpower » Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:00 am

It is a non-issue at the NCAA/USATF/IAAF level where the pole will almost always travel under the bar, so there is no rule there.

NFHS 7-5-25 allows an official to designate someone to catch the pole after properly released if a tailwind is going to cause it to fall forward. However, in practice, large front buns usually make that impractical in a tailwind situation.

The rules generally allow officials to make judgement calls about cases where outside forces have interfered with an attempt, unless the rules specifically prohibit it.

At our home meet last week, a squirrel ran into the box right as a vaulter was running down the runway. His teammates all freaked out and yelled at him to stop. He attempted to abort the jump but his pole touched the mat behind the box which was technically a miss. I ruled it a non-jump and let him try again. The rules don't address squirrels running into boxes, I just used some common sense. The squirrel survived.
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Re: Pole Vault Rule Question

Postby Jackaloupe » Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:26 am

Good one, 'Power'. When the Aptos (Santa Cruz area) HS put in a new Track (& Field), the local Weekly sent out an Intern to write it up. Amongst the "gems" were: "Formerly Pole Vaulters had to run THRU Gopher holes", and (instead of simply "vaulting"), he had them "leaping 12 ft. straight up".

At our USC 50th Reunion, 7 ft. HJ'er Bobby Avant recounted an aborted Mile Relay at UCLA where 45-sec. anchor, Bobby Staten, got chased off the track by a barking dog. I don't think they reran the race, but the errant Dog was doubtless DQ'ed--at least from any more Track Meets, where those Starter's Guns tend to make 'em pretty nervous, for starters :lol:
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Re: Pole Vault Rule Question

Postby Marlow » Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:41 am

polevaultpower wrote:NFHS 7-5-25 allows an official to designate someone to catch the pole after properly released if a tailwind is going to cause it to fall forward. However, in practice, large front buns usually make that impractical in a tailwind situation.

This rule does NOT address the situation in question. It simply says an official may catch the pole as it falls towards the bar. I know the 'good judgement rule' about officiating, but . . . strictly speaking, no rule gives the authority to call it a good jump; some may take that authority; some may not. Even in the case of an obvious wind, the official does not have to take the wind into account. :(
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Re: Pole Vault Rule Question

Postby polevaultpower » Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:59 am

Marlow wrote: Even in the case of an obvious wind, the official does not have to take the wind into account. :(


This is correct. There is nothing in the rule book that says the official must take the wind into account if it blows the pole into the bar.
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Re: Pole Vault Rule Question

Postby 26mi235 » Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:24 pm

This happens more with women than with men in that the pole is more often taller than the bar height for women. My ruling is that: 1) if the vaulter made a good effort to push the bar back; 2) the wind is strong; and 3) the clearance was clean (reduces the likelihood that the bar would have come off) then it is a clearance. The vaulter cannot do anything about the wind and to have the bar come down is not their fault. I think that the shortening of the pegs makes this more of a risk because it is easier to dislodge the bar. Some vaulters learn to flick the bar to the side with their wrist; this is a better technique than pushing the bar back because it is more natural and more effective.

How do you rule if the wind had knocked the bar off and whether the vault is a clearance. At the Big Ten meet last May at first we were pinning the bar against the standards until just before the vault because the wind was so strong and we were losing the bar before the vaulters even were getting down the runway but after a couple of vaults the wind died enough and we had no wind-driven problems.
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Re: Pole Vault Rule Question

Postby Bruce Kritzler » Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:37 pm

How about if the pole falls back and to the side, rattles the standard, and the bar falls, without the athlete touching the bar?
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Re: Pole Vault Rule Question

Postby polevaultpower » Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:25 pm

Bruce Kritzler wrote:How about if the pole falls back and to the side, rattles the standard, and the bar falls, without the athlete touching the bar?


Depends on whether or not the wind pushed the pole into the standards or the athlete just didn't push it back hard enough.
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Re: Pole Vault Rule Question

Postby lonewolf » Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:55 pm

Rule # 1a for all events for circumstances not covered by a specific rule: Common sense.
Rule # 1b: Fairness for athlete and competitors.
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Re: Pole Vault Rule Question

Postby Marlow » Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:19 pm

26mi235 wrote: My ruling is that: 1) if the vaulter made a good effort to push the bar back

My buddy always says, "if they made an effort to push it back, it's good."
I have to remind him that in a no-wind situation, a vaulter can push it back and still not get it to vertical, and that has to be counted as a miss.
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Re: Pole Vault Rule Question

Postby skyin' brian » Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:13 am

How about this case:

The vaulter barely brushes the bar on the way over while properly pushing pole back towards the runway...bar wobbles ever so slightly, but it looks like it isn't even going shift its position on the pegs...tailwind blows pole into bar...bar is dislodged and falls slowly to the mat where the athlete had been celebrating his new PR.




What do you think? I would tend to say miss since the jumper hit the bar and it fell. Other opinions?
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Re: Pole Vault Rule Question

Postby Marlow » Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:56 am

skyin' brian wrote:How about this case:
The vaulter barely brushes the bar on the way over while properly pushing pole back towards the runway...bar wobbles ever so slightly, but it looks like it isn't even going shift its position on the pegs...tailwind blows pole into bar...bar is dislodged and falls slowly to the mat where the athlete had been celebrating his new PR.
What do you think? I would tend to say miss since the jumper hit the bar and it fell. Other opinions?

If there's any question as to whether it was going to stay up, that's a miss. There are still morons who think if you "get off the pads" before it falls, it's a make. If it doesn't get a chance to fall before the wind pushes the pole into it, it's a miss (IMO).

So the answer to my initial question is - it's totally an official's judgement call. I know how I call it - wish more officials gave it to the athlete.
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Re: Pole Vault Rule Question

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:46 am

Vaulter hits bar and it bounces vertically some with a good wind. Eventually the bar comes off (no pole contact). When do you call it the wind and when the vaulter?
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Re: Pole Vault Rule Question

Postby Conor Dary » Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:47 am

lonewolf wrote:Rule # 1a for all events for circumstances not covered by a specific rule: Common sense.
Rule # 1b: Fairness for athlete and competitors.


The Wise One speaks. I hardily agree, but so often not followed, i.e. see the Bring back the mile thread.
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Re: Pole Vault Rule Question

Postby Marlow » Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:50 am

26mi235 wrote:Vaulter hits bar and it bounces vertically some with a good wind. Eventually the bar comes off (no pole contact). When do you call it the wind and when the vaulter?

Miss. You hit it; you deal with the consequences.
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Re: Pole Vault Rule Question

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:32 am

How long do you wait to make that decision - 1 second, 10 seconds, one minute? Assume for the answer that the wind is blowing bars off the pegs some of the time.

In non-windy situations, the longest that the bar will come down from contact is several seconds (not sure if it is 3 or 5 but it is not 15). For me, that is long enough afterwards.
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Re: Pole Vault Rule Question

Postby gktrack » Fri May 17, 2013 5:06 pm

I had a high school girl ask me a question today regarding use of a pole and Article 3 of NFHS PV rules... I could use some of your professional opinions please.

She uses two poles in practice, but one is an older Pacer pole and after seeing it today, I'm not sure all the marking labels are on it, or if they ever existed? The top label, about 1 inch from top of the pole, states the length and weight of the pole clearly. However, unlike the Spirit pole, there is no marking/band about 6 inches down from the top, where supposedly they are supposed to grip at/below that level.(?).

So, my question is, do you think she will have any problems using this Pacer pole. Of course no one has bothered checking in her dual meets, but she's now in a CA regional prelim and I don't know how strictly these things are enforced. Just want to get an idea of what the implications, if any, there may be.

Thanks


ART. 3 . . . The competitor’s weight shall be at or below the manufacturer’s pole
rating. The manufacturers must include on each pole: the pole rating that shall be
a minimum of ¾ inch in a contrasting color located within or above the top handhold
position; a 1-inch circular band indicating the maximum top hand-hold position
with the position being determined by the manufacturer. Prior to competition,
the coach must verify that all of the school’s pole vaulters and poles meet these
requirements.
NOTES:
1. Etchings, serial numbers, etc. that may appear on poles shall not replace the requirement
of the manufacturer’s pole rating of the minimum ¾-inch marking in contrasting
color on each pole. (7-5-3)
2. Each state association shall determine its own procedure regarding coaches’ verification.
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Re: Pole Vault Rule Question

Postby 26mi235 » Fri May 17, 2013 5:19 pm

Did they grandfather in all prior poles, the ones before this rule came in to effect and do not have markings?

I rarely do youth meets but it seems that in high school the coach signed off on the poles for her/his athletes. When I did the Junior Olympic Regional meet I brought a scale to weigh the competitors and fond the the girls did not like doing that.

This has generally seemed to me to be a CYA-type of rule. Unfortunately, I think that it leads to lighter vaulters (read girls) vaulting on poles that are way above their weight. They do not want to spend a lot of money on equipment that has a smaller set of athletes that can use it and it is easier for them on the verification side; a girl 5'6" and at all lean is not going to exceed 145lbs. This was the situation for my daughter and her teammates; few were within 15 pounds of the lightest rated pole and they were getting little mechanical advantage from the pole.
Last edited by 26mi235 on Fri May 17, 2013 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pole Vault Rule Question

Postby gktrack » Fri May 17, 2013 5:34 pm

thanks 26mi235... there's no concern about the weight rating here... just where she can grip, if that band ever existed on the Pacer pole. A good point about whether these things have a grandfathered clause or not. I'm just trying to get some views to know if she has any options if/when any official says anything, just in case. Thanks.
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Re: Pole Vault Rule Question

Postby Marlow » Fri May 17, 2013 6:33 pm

There is no grandfathering and a pole without the necessary markings is an illegal pole.
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Re: Pole Vault Rule Question

Postby gktrack » Fri May 17, 2013 6:57 pm

Marlow wrote:There is no grandfathering and a pole without the necessary markings is an illegal pole.

Not the answer I wanted to hear for her, but at least I can prepare her for that potential outcome. Thank you very much for responding.
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Re: Pole Vault Rule Question

Postby Marlow » Fri May 17, 2013 6:59 pm

gktrack wrote:
Marlow wrote:There is no grandfathering and a pole without the necessary markings is an illegal pole.

Not the answer I wanted to hear for her, but at least I can prepare her for that potential outcome. Thank you very much for responding.

That's the official company line and what you should indeed prepare for. Some officials are lenient about handholds (typically 4" from the top), but none are lenient about the pole weight.
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Re: Pole Vault Rule Question

Postby gktrack » Fri May 17, 2013 8:17 pm

Marlow wrote:
gktrack wrote:
Marlow wrote:There is no grandfathering and a pole without the necessary markings is an illegal pole.

Not the answer I wanted to hear for her, but at least I can prepare her for that potential outcome. Thank you very much for responding.

That's the official company line and what you should indeed prepare for. Some officials are lenient about handholds (typically 4" from the top), but none are lenient about the pole weight.

I really appreciate the input. There's no problem with pole weight, all legit, and her tape mark is 6 inches below the top of the pole. I luckily found another pole for her, just in case. She's not in the "A" group, so we'll see how it goes Saturday in terms of being lenient. Thanks again.
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Re: Pole Vault Rule Question

Postby polevaultpower » Fri May 17, 2013 9:11 pm

The rule states (among other things) that the weight rating must be 3/4" numbers, the old Pacer poles lack that. You can get a replacement label from Gill Athletics and then it will be legal.

I DQ'd an old Pacer pole yesterday. I feel bad, but the rule is what it is. I offered to loan the athlete one of our poles, but she had a different one of her own anyway.
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Re: Pole Vault Rule Question

Postby gktrack » Fri May 17, 2013 9:18 pm

polevaultpower wrote:The rule states (among other things) that the weight rating must be 3/4" numbers, the old Pacer poles lack that. You can get a replacement label from Gill Athletics and then it will be legal.

I DQ'd an old Pacer pole yesterday. I feel bad, but the rule is what it is. I offered to loan the athlete one of our poles, but she had a different one of her own anyway.

Thanks for the response polevaultpower. There's no problem with the weight rating, it's maybe not that old and reads 150 lbs. clearly in 3/4" numbers on a yellow band at the top of the pole. The only question is her grip tape starts 6 inches below that yellow 150 lb. label, and unlike the Spirit pole she uses, her Pacer(Fx) pole has no line/band (other than the top of her athletic grip tape). What do you think?
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Re: Pole Vault Rule Question

Postby polevaultpower » Sat May 18, 2013 8:55 pm

gktrack wrote:
polevaultpower wrote:The rule states (among other things) that the weight rating must be 3/4" numbers, the old Pacer poles lack that. You can get a replacement label from Gill Athletics and then it will be legal.

I DQ'd an old Pacer pole yesterday. I feel bad, but the rule is what it is. I offered to loan the athlete one of our poles, but she had a different one of her own anyway.

Thanks for the response polevaultpower. There's no problem with the weight rating, it's maybe not that old and reads 150 lbs. clearly in 3/4" numbers on a yellow band at the top of the pole. The only question is her grip tape starts 6 inches below that yellow 150 lb. label, and unlike the Spirit pole she uses, her Pacer(Fx) pole has no line/band (other than the top of her athletic grip tape). What do you think?


Oh I misunderstood the question. The yellow Pacer weight label sticker doubles as the maximum handhold band. It is up to each manufacturer to determine the maximum grip for their poles.
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Re: Pole Vault Rule Question

Postby gktrack » Sat May 18, 2013 9:06 pm

polevaultpower wrote:Oh I misunderstood the question. The yellow Pacer weight label sticker doubles as the maximum handhold band. It is up to each manufacturer to determine the maximum grip for their poles.

polevaultpower - thanks very much for your clarification, (and also for the courtesy extended by Marlow and 26mi235 in their responses). She was able to use the pole today and moved on to sectional finals, but it will be very comforting for her to know that the yellow Pacer(Fx) label is multi-purpose. I certainly learned something in the process.
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