Svetlana Feofanova


Main message board: for the discussion of topical track & field items only.

Svetlana Feofanova

Postby Deerfoot » Thu May 09, 2013 5:23 pm

Any other Feofanova fans on this site?
Deerfoot
 
Posts: 88
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:23 pm

Re: Svetlana Feofanova

Postby Marlow » Thu May 09, 2013 5:50 pm

Deerfoot wrote:Any other Feofanova fans on this site?

A wPV super-fan.
Feofanova doesn't seem to engender the same sort of fan following that most of her colleagues do.
Marlow
 
Posts: 21121
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:00 pm
Location: Somewhere over the . . . hill

Re: Svetlana Feofanova

Postby aaronk » Thu May 09, 2013 7:44 pm

As the first-ever 16 footer, Feofanova deserves a special place in the PV Hall of Fame....if there were such a place!!
She's the female version of John Uelses, the first male 16 footer!!

It's only because she never again reached that mark that she doesn't get the recognition she deserves!
But, simply said, she was a pioneer!
aaronk
 
Posts: 3359
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 9:39 am

Re: Svetlana Feofanova

Postby eldanielfire » Thu May 09, 2013 10:10 pm

To be fair, her lack of attention might have something to do with Yelena Isinbayeva's absolutely stella career. Even people who don't know her name are often aware of a Russian pole vault lady who keeps breaking world records.
eldanielfire
 
Posts: 1321
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:07 am

Re: Svetlana Feofanova

Postby polevaultpower » Thu May 09, 2013 10:22 pm

aaronk wrote:As the first-ever 16 footer, Feofanova deserves a special place in the PV Hall of Fame....if there were such a place!!


There is a USA PV HOF, but I don't know of a formal international one :)
polevaultpower
 
Posts: 4533
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: A Temperate Island

Re: Svetlana Feofanova

Postby aaronk » Thu May 09, 2013 10:28 pm

She's still competing, right??
aaronk
 
Posts: 3359
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 9:39 am

Re: Svetlana Feofanova

Postby norunner » Fri May 10, 2013 3:18 am

aaronk wrote:As the first-ever 16 footer, Feofanova deserves a special place in the PV Hall of Fame....if there were such a place!!
She's the female version of John Uelses, the first male 16 footer!!

It's only because she never again reached that mark that she doesn't get the recognition she deserves!
But, simply said, she was a pioneer!
She doesn't get the recognition because nobody outside of the US cares about 16 feet, which equals what, 4.87m ?
norunner
 
Posts: 1287
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2012 12:21 pm

Re: Svetlana Feofanova

Postby aaronk » Fri May 10, 2013 3:49 am

norunner wrote:
aaronk wrote:As the first-ever 16 footer, Feofanova deserves a special place in the PV Hall of Fame....if there were such a place!!
She's the female version of John Uelses, the first male 16 footer!!

It's only because she never again reached that mark that she doesn't get the recognition she deserves!
But, simply said, she was a pioneer!
She doesn't get the recognition because nobody outside of the US cares about 16 feet, which equals what, 4.87m ?


4.88...according to the listing for the mark in Athletics Annual.
I think the US will probably never get fully on board with the metric system, especially for the field events.
We (US citizens) still think in terms of yards (football) and miles.
So 16 feet, or 70 feet in the SP, or 7 feet in the HJ, is much easier for us (Americans in general, not we "elitists" on this MB!) to understand.

Whether the rest of the world recognizes Feofanova's accomplishment (of being the first over 16) doesn't really matter to the average track fan here.
Her reaching 16....while Stacy Dragila never did....is a cross we still carry to this day!
But she IS a pioneer.....in the yards, feet, inches world!
aaronk
 
Posts: 3359
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 9:39 am

Re: Svetlana Feofanova

Postby norunner » Fri May 10, 2013 4:36 am

aaronk wrote:I think the US will probably never get fully on board with the metric system, especially for the field events.
We (US citizens) still think in terms of yards (football) and miles.
So 16 feet, or 70 feet in the SP, or 7 feet in the HJ, is much easier for us (Americans in general, not we "elitists" on this MB!) to understand.

Whether the rest of the world recognizes Feofanova's accomplishment (of being the first over 16) doesn't really matter to the average track fan here.
Her reaching 16....while Stacy Dragila never did....is a cross we still carry to this day!
But she IS a pioneer.....in the yards, feet, inches world!
So what do they do in the US at big international meetings, for example the DL in New York? Announce and show results both in feet and meters?
norunner
 
Posts: 1287
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2012 12:21 pm

Re: Svetlana Feofanova

Postby DCSIGMA » Fri May 10, 2013 4:42 am

norunner wrote:
aaronk wrote:I think the US will probably never get fully on board with the metric system, especially for the field events.
We (US citizens) still think in terms of yards (football) and miles.
So 16 feet, or 70 feet in the SP, or 7 feet in the HJ, is much easier for us (Americans in general, not we "elitists" on this MB!) to understand.

Whether the rest of the world recognizes Feofanova's accomplishment (of being the first over 16) doesn't really matter to the average track fan here.
Her reaching 16....while Stacy Dragila never did....is a cross we still carry to this day!
But she IS a pioneer.....in the yards, feet, inches world!
So what do they do in the US at big international meetings, for example the DL in New York? Announce and show results both in feet and meters?


I think they do show/announce both types of measurements...I know they do at Penn relays.
DCSIGMA
 
Posts: 698
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:59 am

Re: Svetlana Feofanova

Postby Marlow » Fri May 10, 2013 4:48 am

eldanielfire wrote:To be fair, her lack of attention might have something to do with Yelena Isinbayeva's absolutely stella career.

I think it has more to do with the fact that Isi (and many other wPVers) play to the crowd and Feo doesn't. The wPV is as much spectacle as it is sport, and understanding the entertainment value is paramount to its current popularity (yes, the fact that they're beautiful women in alluring costume is undeniable also). Feo doesn't buy into that (nor should she, if she so chooses), and that often comes across as 'coldness'. I do appreciate her quiet efficiency.
Marlow
 
Posts: 21121
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:00 pm
Location: Somewhere over the . . . hill

Re: Svetlana Feofanova

Postby Deerfoot » Fri May 10, 2013 5:48 am

I think Marlow nails it. Feofanova isn't as attractive or as charismatic as Isi. Of course Isi went on to achieve much greater things, but it's hard to avoid the suspicion that Svetlana wouldn't have been as big a star even if she had accomplished as much. At the time there was genuine rivalry between them I rooted for Feofanova. Isi has grown on me over the years, but Feofanova remains my favorite polevaulter. She may not have been an Isi, but she broke world records and won world and european titles.
One further point, which put a seal on my liking for her. In the 2004 olympics Isi ended the competition by breaking the world record and Feofanova was caught on camera smiling. It was utterly spontaneous. There had been a lot of talk about their rivalry( and it does seem there was some animosity between them). Nonetheless Svetlana was able to simply celebrate her breaking the world record.
Deerfoot
 
Posts: 88
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:23 pm

Re: Svetlana Feofanova

Postby 26mi235 » Fri May 10, 2013 6:05 am

norunner wrote:
aaronk wrote:As the first-ever 16 footer, Feofanova deserves a special place in the PV Hall of Fame....if there were such a place!!
She's the female version of John Uelses, the first male 16 footer!!

It's only because she never again reached that mark that she doesn't get the recognition she deserves!
But, simply said, she was a pioneer!
She doesn't get the recognition because nobody outside of the US cares about 16 feet, which equals what, 4.87m ?


Yes, but the metric system is not always the right human scale. For the Vault, the distance between markers (a meter) is much too large to have many special numbers, (they get lucky with 5m); in the HJ it is useless where as 8 feet for the men and 7 for the women are the outstanding, feasible markers, and 7 feet was a big deal.
26mi235
 
Posts: 16333
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Madison, WI

Re: Svetlana Feofanova

Postby iain » Fri May 10, 2013 7:15 am

26mi235 wrote:
norunner wrote:
aaronk wrote:As the first-ever 16 footer, Feofanova deserves a special place in the PV Hall of Fame....if there were such a place!!
She's the female version of John Uelses, the first male 16 footer!!

It's only because she never again reached that mark that she doesn't get the recognition she deserves!
But, simply said, she was a pioneer!
She doesn't get the recognition because nobody outside of the US cares about 16 feet, which equals what, 4.87m ?


Yes, but the metric system is not always the right human scale. For the Vault, the distance between markers (a meter) is much too large to have many special numbers, (they get lucky with 5m); in the HJ it is useless where as 8 feet for the men and 7 for the women are the outstanding, feasible markers, and 7 feet was a big deal.


TBH it is really annoying how you refuse to use metric measurements. I mean over here in Britain we still use Imperial measurements mostly (though it is a funny mix), but when it comes to something like athletics it is much more useful to have everyone use the same measurements. I come on here and everyone is wowing over whoever putting however many feet, and it really means nothing to me.
iain
 
Posts: 294
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:50 am

Re: Svetlana Feofanova

Postby gh » Fri May 10, 2013 7:19 am

Hate to be harsh, but what a ludicrous complaint. If you went to a board based out of Paris would you bitch because everybody was posting in French?
gh
 
Posts: 46334
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Re: Svetlana Feofanova

Postby iain » Fri May 10, 2013 7:24 am

gh wrote:Hate to be harsh, but what a ludicrous complaint. If you went to a board based out of Paris would you bitch because everybody was posting in French?


That is irrelevant. I mean imperial is our system but we have managed to keep up with the world; I have to say it often seems as though the US tries to be different just for the sake of it :P

Anyway I don't want to drag this thread into name calling so I'll shut up now.
iain
 
Posts: 294
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:50 am

Re: Svetlana Feofanova

Postby norunner » Fri May 10, 2013 7:28 am

gh wrote:Hate to be harsh, but what a ludicrous complaint. If you went to a board based out of Paris would you bitch because everybody was posting in French?
I would bitch if the french themselves didn't know which language to use. As far as i know the US military uses the metric system as does NASA. Didn't they even loose a mars orbiter because the specifications were metric but a subcontractor used feet? And even in T&F you use the metric system, after all, you run 100/200 etc meters, not feet.
norunner
 
Posts: 1287
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2012 12:21 pm

Re: Svetlana Feofanova

Postby gh » Fri May 10, 2013 7:42 am

iain wrote:
gh wrote:Hate to be harsh, but what a ludicrous complaint. If you went to a board based out of Paris would you bitch because everybody was posting in French?


That is irrelevant. I mean imperial is our system but we have managed to keep up with the world; I have to say it often seems as though the US tries to be different just for the sake of it :P

Anyway I don't want to drag this thread into name calling so I'll shut up now.


good idea
gh
 
Posts: 46334
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Re: Svetlana Feofanova

Postby iain » Fri May 10, 2013 7:45 am

gh wrote:
iain wrote:
gh wrote:Hate to be harsh, but what a ludicrous complaint. If you went to a board based out of Paris would you bitch because everybody was posting in French?


That is irrelevant. I mean imperial is our system but we have managed to keep up with the world; I have to say it often seems as though the US tries to be different just for the sake of it :P

Anyway I don't want to drag this thread into name calling so I'll shut up now.


good idea


Don' be so snide
iain
 
Posts: 294
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:50 am

Re: Svetlana Feofanova

Postby Marlow » Fri May 10, 2013 7:47 am

The "what's wrong with you Americans who can't adapt to the metric system?" mewling always amuses me. We like Imperial in all its quirkiness. That just makes us more unique, which is what we're REALLY after, doanchaknow?! :D
Marlow
 
Posts: 21121
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:00 pm
Location: Somewhere over the . . . hill

Re: Svetlana Feofanova

Postby 26mi235 » Fri May 10, 2013 7:57 am

But, the lack of match with the human scale was one of the reasons that it failed to take hold here. Nothing in the measurement system was really set up with people in mind (meter - 10,000 in a quadrant of earth, etc).
26mi235
 
Posts: 16333
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Madison, WI

Re: Svetlana Feofanova

Postby gh » Fri May 10, 2013 8:03 am

iain wrote:
gh wrote:
iain wrote:
gh wrote:Hate to be harsh, but what a ludicrous complaint. If you went to a board based out of Paris would you bitch because everybody was posting in French?


That is irrelevant. I mean imperial is our system but we have managed to keep up with the world; I have to say it often seems as though the US tries to be different just for the sake of it :P

Anyway I don't want to drag this thread into name calling so I'll shut up now.


good idea


Don' be so snide


That wasn't remotely snide. It was a flat-out warning to cease and desist. Thanks.
gh
 
Posts: 46334
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Re: Svetlana Feofanova

Postby eldanielfire » Fri May 10, 2013 10:53 am

Deerfoot wrote:I think Marlow nails it. Feofanova isn't as attractive or as charismatic as Isi. Of course Isi went on to achieve much greater things, but it's hard to avoid the suspicion that Svetlana wouldn't have been as big a star even if she had accomplished as much. At the time there was genuine rivalry between them I rooted for Feofanova. Isi has grown on me over the years, but Feofanova remains my favorite polevaulter. She may not have been an Isi, but she broke world records and won world and european titles.
One further point, which put a seal on my liking for her. In the 2004 olympics Isi ended the competition by breaking the world record and Feofanova was caught on camera smiling. It was utterly spontaneous. There had been a lot of talk about their rivalry( and it does seem there was some animosity between them). Nonetheless Svetlana was able to simply celebrate her breaking the world record.


I disagree. Isinbayeva is one of the few athletes whose reputation stretches further from the sport. Sure she is attractive, but I recall somewhere between Athens and Beijing there were tons (for T&F) of media sites and blogs referencing how many world records she broke and how she kept breaking them. That is the main thrust of her global fame. Even some kids I've spoken to know that after naming Bolt there is a Russian pole Vaulter who has broke 20+ records, it was well referenced even if many people couldn't strictly name her. It helped that she broke the world record again in Beijing as well, T&F fame always goes further if you do that on the biggest stage of all.
eldanielfire
 
Posts: 1321
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:07 am

Re: Svetlana Feofanova

Postby Marlow » Fri May 10, 2013 11:43 am

I had to reread her story at the IAAF site to rekindle my interest in her, but it has . . .

http://www.iaaf.net/news/athletes/newsid=45591.html
Marlow
 
Posts: 21121
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:00 pm
Location: Somewhere over the . . . hill

Re: Svetlana Feofanova

Postby Deerfoot » Fri May 10, 2013 3:22 pm

I agree that her athletics exploits are the main thrust of her fame and I don't mean to disparage her in any way. But I still think it's true that her looks and certainly her charisma add to her popular appeal. As Marlow pointed out, Isi(and some others) play to the crowd. Feofanova doesn't. This isn't good or bad in either case, it's just a difference of style. However, the first tends to attract more fans than the second. All else being equal an athlete who does the first will tend to be more popular than an athlete who does the second.
Would Bolt be quite the global celebrity he is without his personality and antics? I suspect not. And here's a test case. Bekele's athletic accomplishments are fullly comparable to Geb's. Yet Bekele is not so well known and admired outside the athletics world as Geb is. Haile didn't play to the crowd, but he does have great natural charisma.
P.S. I like Bolt and Isi, and love Geb. This is not meant as a criticism of any of them, it 's simply reality, in my opinion.
Deerfoot
 
Posts: 88
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:23 pm

Re: Svetlana Feofanova

Postby 26mi235 » Fri May 10, 2013 3:40 pm

I generally do not think that Isi has great charm and charisma and that she may have lost some over time. Maybe hiding under a blanket during competitions etc. is not the most charismatic behavior. Conversely, Feofanova seems to have blossomed some.
26mi235
 
Posts: 16333
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Madison, WI

Re: Svetlana Feofanova

Postby aaronk » Fri May 10, 2013 3:51 pm

Whatever their "attractiveness" or their "crowd appeal", it's a FACT that Ms Feofanova was, and will forever remain, the FIRST woman to reach the 16 foot barrier!
Isi can claim to be the first to reach the 5.00 METER mark, but Feofanova has her own claim to fame.
The only thing about her BODY that matters is....whether she gets it over the bar without knocking the bar off!!

BTW, another "pioneer" who is rarely spoken of, or remembered (except by we T&F aficionados) is Australia's Emma George, who was the first woman to reach 15 feet back in 1999.
aaronk
 
Posts: 3359
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 9:39 am

Re: Svetlana Feofanova

Postby Pego » Fri May 10, 2013 4:07 pm

26mi235 wrote:I generally do not think that Isi has great charm and charisma


That's right. Flirting affectations are neither charming, nor charismatic. I admire Isi's athletic achievements, her demeanor a lot less so.
Pego
 
Posts: 10202
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: beyond help

Re: Svetlana Feofanova

Postby eldanielfire » Sat May 11, 2013 3:36 am

Pego wrote:
26mi235 wrote:I generally do not think that Isi has great charm and charisma


That's right. Flirting affectations are neither charming, nor charismatic. I admire Isi's athletic achievements, her demeanor a lot less so.


You are in a minority, in Beijing she absolutely held the stadium in the palm of her hand with that WR and celebration afterwards. Enough for her to millions in being sponsored by Chinese companies.

I would say Isi came out of Beijing the 2nd most popular athlete after Bolt on a global scale in T&F. That shows she has charisma well above many other successful athletes.
eldanielfire
 
Posts: 1321
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:07 am

Re: Svetlana Feofanova

Postby Pego » Sat May 11, 2013 3:50 am

eldanielfire wrote:You are in a minority


It wouldn't be the first time :wink: .
Pego
 
Posts: 10202
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: beyond help

Re: Svetlana Feofanova

Postby eldanielfire » Sat May 11, 2013 5:09 am

Pego wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:You are in a minority


It wouldn't be the first time :wink: .


I suppose some people hate Usain Bolt's antics. Some people just have to be different :lol:
eldanielfire
 
Posts: 1321
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:07 am

Re: Svetlana Feofanova

Postby Pego » Sat May 11, 2013 6:01 am

eldanielfire wrote:
Pego wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:You are in a minority


It wouldn't be the first time :wink: .


I suppose some people hate Usain Bolt's antics. Some people just have to be different :lol:


Mrs. Pego cannot stand him. When I remind her he is The GOAT, she just makes a face. I think, we should quit this one-on-one exchange, if no one else peeps in, so we are not kicked in the ass :D .
Pego
 
Posts: 10202
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: beyond help

Re: Svetlana Feofanova

Postby aaronk » Sat May 11, 2013 10:35 am

Feofanova will compete in the Shanghai DL!!
aaronk
 
Posts: 3359
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 9:39 am

Re: Svetlana Feofanova

Postby gh » Sat May 11, 2013 2:14 pm

norunner wrote:......So what do they do in the US at big international meetings, for example the DL in New York? Announce and show results both in feet and meters?


Having announced at both NYC and Eugene I can tell you that when the DL crranked up 3 years ago, the Swiss Timing people were in meters-only mode, so the on-field indicators were metric-only. That went over like a lead balloon (and wrought havoc in the booth).

The last two editions, the indicators show both metric and English.

And if I'm on the mike, meters get mentioned only when it's good filler to stretch out the drama on the measure of an obviously long jump/throw.

It's called understanding your audience and enhancing their understanding/enjoyment of the proceedings.
gh
 
Posts: 46334
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Re: Svetlana Feofanova

Postby eldanielfire » Wed May 15, 2013 1:14 pm

gh wrote:
That wasn't remotely snide. It was a flat-out warning to cease and desist. Thanks.


It comes across as snide and afterwards slightly threating, you can't be serious about threatening somebody for criticising the resistance to the metric system?

aaronk wrote:Feofanova will compete in the Shanghai DL!!


Didn't Feofanova have a major falling out with Isinbayeva? I've heard references to how they don't like each other or are enemies. Does anybody know how this happened or what the supposed rumours were about it?
eldanielfire
 
Posts: 1321
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:07 am

Re: Svetlana Feofanova

Postby gh » Wed May 15, 2013 1:43 pm

eldanielfire wrote:
gh wrote:
That wasn't remotely snide. It was a flat-out warning to cease and desist. Thanks.


It comes across as snide and afterwards slightly threating, you can't be serious about threatening somebody for criticising the resistance to the metric system?
...


there is no resistance. There's a flat-out rejection, and reducing criticism to attacks on a nation's beliefs won't be tolerated.
gh
 
Posts: 46334
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Re: Svetlana Feofanova

Postby iain » Wed May 15, 2013 3:43 pm

gh wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
gh wrote:
That wasn't remotely snide. It was a flat-out warning to cease and desist. Thanks.


It comes across as snide and afterwards slightly threating, you can't be serious about threatening somebody for criticising the resistance to the metric system?
...


there is no resistance. There's a flat-out rejection, and reducing criticism to attacks on a nation's beliefs won't be tolerated.


I don't want to get into an argument again but that is untrue.
iain
 
Posts: 294
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:50 am

Re: Svetlana Feofanova

Postby polevaultpower » Wed May 15, 2013 6:07 pm

eldanielfire wrote:
Didn't Feofanova have a major falling out with Isinbayeva? I've heard references to how they don't like each other or are enemies. Does anybody know how this happened or what the supposed rumours were about it?


I don't know of any elite female vaulters who like Isinbayeva. She's not a very nice person when she is competing and as far as I know makes no effort to be pleasant toward other vaulters outside the arena either. Most vaulters are pretty chummy.
polevaultpower
 
Posts: 4533
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: A Temperate Island

Re: Svetlana Feofanova

Postby eldanielfire » Wed May 15, 2013 10:15 pm

polevaultpower wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
Didn't Feofanova have a major falling out with Isinbayeva? I've heard references to how they don't like each other or are enemies. Does anybody know how this happened or what the supposed rumours were about it?


I don't know of any elite female vaulters who like Isinbayeva. She's not a very nice person when she is competing and as far as I know makes no effort to be pleasant toward other vaulters outside the arena either. Most vaulters are pretty chummy.


I always took that as her needing to be focused in competition, the blanket etc. Some athletes are like that. Outside pole vaulting she seems such a family oriented person, helping out with her sisters child, close to her parents etc. Though loving the high life as well.
eldanielfire
 
Posts: 1321
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:07 am

Re: Svetlana Feofanova

Postby Ref » Thu May 16, 2013 2:41 am

iain wrote:
gh wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
gh wrote:
That wasn't remotely snide. It was a flat-out warning to cease and desist. Thanks.


It comes across as snide and afterwards slightly threating, you can't be serious about threatening somebody for criticising the resistance to the metric system?
...


there is no resistance. There's a flat-out rejection, and reducing criticism to attacks on a nation's beliefs won't be tolerated.


I don't want to get into an argument again but that is untrue.

Completely concur. There is no hint whatsoever of the purported attacks. From a neutral's perspective (a non-American) that reaction appears completely disproportionate and unfounded.

There is always the "might is right" fallback of an administrator; but really, this is neither a civil not wholly rational way to debate, and is certainly reading-in things that are simply not there.

The out-of-line poster is clearly the one wielding the ban-hammer; on this thread's evidence, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see it swung.
Ref
 
Posts: 61
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:53 pm

Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: aaronk, Bing [Bot], Dutra5, Google [Bot], norunner and 18 guests