Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]


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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby ZELLGADISS » Tue May 07, 2013 10:05 am

Well i think that Blake in shape like in 2012, trials-London-Lausanne, his top end speed is superior to Gay i think.
Of course this year Gay will be better that in 2012 with few pre-season, but Blake is great too.
I dont see so sure that Gay 100% defeat to Blake 100%.
And if Bolt is 100% or 95% he will win sure.
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby marknhj » Tue May 07, 2013 11:20 am

Daisy wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:What's the point of a message board discussion if people can't use races to speculate using whatever measurements and evidence that they can? It's half the fun.


Last year Tyson opened with a 10.00 at Adidas Grand Prix. He ran 9.80 in the London final. So in Moscow he will run 9.66. Bolt will probably false start since he'll be so anxious to get away quickly. Assuming he makes it out of the semi-finals. :wink:


You forgot to factor in that Gay was basically jogging the first 50m at the weekend.
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby BCBaroo » Tue May 07, 2013 1:16 pm

I believe we can attribute everything to Tyson's new hairstyle. Sort of a yarmulke meets Kid n Play?
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby 26mi235 » Tue May 07, 2013 1:21 pm

ZELLGADISS wrote:Well i think that Blake in shape like in 2012, trials-London-Lausanne, his top end speed is superior to Gay i think.
Of course this year Gay will be better that in 2012 with few pre-season, but Blake is great too.
I dont see so sure that Gay 100% defeat to Blake 100%.
And if Bolt is 100% or 95% he will win sure.


"I think" is not very strong in the evidence characteristic. The question is: what evidence do you bring up to make the point that Blake's top end is better than Gay's top end. The first item posited was irrelevant because it brought in a 200 time that is excellent (more excellent than Gay's great 200 time) but that says nothing about top-end speed because top-end speed does not get used in the 200 (peak speeds in 200s are systematically less than in the 100). The second item consistent of "I think..." which is singularly lacking in evidence.
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby gh » Tue May 07, 2013 1:22 pm

jamboy wrote:
toyracer wrote:
blinger wrote:and as for blake he is a monster beast and is top end speed is ahead of tyson's


is there any evidence to support this claim?



This is clearly evidenced in the 200m especially when Blake ran 19.26 in Brussels in 2011.


Since nobody runs at a higher speed than they do around 60-70 meters, this answer couldn't be more wrong. Blake being faster than Gay in the 200 only proves that his speed decay is less in the longer sprint.
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby ZELLGADISS » Tue May 07, 2013 2:15 pm

Well for to make 9.69 -0.1 in Lausanne, i think that it shows that Blake has very good top end speed, SURE
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby gh » Tue May 07, 2013 2:22 pm

ZELLGADISS wrote:Marlow but IAAF tells rules, WRS, materials for tracks,..
They are the most important organization.
Who dont want see it, is blind really.

And if IAAF in a article comments that no loss for Bolt in that race, i dont think that im telling nothing stupid.
Bolt lost with Powell, with Gay and with Blake in trials, it is sure.
In Daegu lost with Blake,Collins,Lemaitre,... with everybody?No.

Nobody go change my opinion, and i repeat that other sites and articles IAAF think same, so i dont think that im mad :lol:

End of the theme :wink:


you mean this IAAF? (from the DL Fantasy thread)

<<And we still don't know whether they count 8 or 9? This is amazing, the IAAF still can't spell out the rules without confusing us!>> :mrgreen:
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby jamboy » Tue May 07, 2013 3:38 pm

ZELLGADISS wrote:Well for to make 9.69 -0.1 in Lausanne, i think that it shows that Blake has very good top end speed, SURE


Yes versus Tyson's 9.69 with a 2.0 wind.
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby bignate88 » Tue May 07, 2013 4:21 pm

jamboy wrote:
ZELLGADISS wrote:Well for to make 9.69 -0.1 in Lausanne, i think that it shows that Blake has very good top end speed, SURE


Yes versus Tyson's 9.69 with a 2.0 wind.

9.69 represents an average speed: It still doesnt indicate who has more top end speed. Plus those two races were run completely different from each other
If you were to find 10m splits for Blake's and Gay's 9.69 and compare them, that would suffice. Otherwise, it's speculation
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby Daisy » Tue May 07, 2013 6:45 pm

marknhj wrote:You forgot to factor in that Gay was basically jogging the first 50m at the weekend.

Initially I was skeptical, but I looked again and I think you're right. So possibly a sub 9.5 is on the cards. Makes you wonder if Bolt and Blake will skip Moscow this year.
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby bignate88 » Tue May 07, 2013 6:57 pm

Daisy wrote:
marknhj wrote:You forgot to factor in that Gay was basically jogging the first 50m at the weekend.

Initially I was skeptical, but I looked again and I think you're right. So possibly a sub 9.5 is on the cards. Makes you wonder if Bolt and Blake will skip Moscow this year.

:lol: :lol:
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby tm71 » Tue May 07, 2013 10:23 pm

Last year Tyson opened with a 10.00 at Adidas Grand Prix. He ran 9.80 in the London final. So in Moscow he will run 9.66. Bolt will probably false start since he'll be so anxious to get away quickly. Assuming he makes it out of the semi-finals/

logic would point to that, but sometimes there is no logic in sports or life in general. assuming that gay stays health all season he can certainly improve a tenth or two. however, we have to remember that he is turning 31 this year. gatlin is always going to be 31. the elite american sprinters are aging and few are young and upcoming. well the 100 meter final in moscow is over three months away, still a long way out.
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby lionelp1 » Tue May 07, 2013 10:57 pm

Daisy wrote:
marknhj wrote:You forgot to factor in that Gay was basically jogging the first 50m at the weekend.

Initially I was skeptical, but I looked again and I think you're right. So possibly a sub 9.5 is on the cards. Makes you wonder if Bolt and Blake will skip Moscow this year.


I assume 100% you are having a glorious laugh at the expense of the posters whose comments about Gay are risible.
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby lionelp1 » Tue May 07, 2013 11:05 pm

26mi235 wrote:Well, maybe it won't happen again; however, I bet you never thought it would happen the first time. I, on the other hand did think it would happen the first time. However, I was also aware that if I posted that I would be flamed etc. Thus, I sent a PM to one of the sprint-oriented posters saying why I thought it might happen.

Given similar circumstances I think it less likely to happen because I think that they will have addressed some of the reasons why it occurred. I do not think that it is that likely to happen, but if both Gay and Blake are running 9.6s and Gay is a little off his game like he was that year in the 100 it is not beyond the pale.

And why, pray, should Gay and Blake be running 9.6s in 3 months time. Blake couldnt do it last year in London in the fastest of 100m races, and Gay may or may very well not be there in Moscow with his history; what Gay is doing now is utterly irrelevant to Moscow in August. In any event, if Bolt is fit, then in the very unlikely chance that Gay can get into the 9.6s Bolt will still beat him. Gays 9.71 in 2009 is a while ago.
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby lionelp1 » Tue May 07, 2013 11:09 pm

BCBaroo wrote:I believe we can attribute everything to Tyson's new hairstyle. Sort of a yarmulke meets Kid n Play?


:lol: :lol:
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby EPelle » Wed May 08, 2013 12:00 am

lionelp1 wrote:And why, pray, should Gay and Blake be running 9.6s in 3 months time. Blake couldnt do it last year in London in the fastest of 100m races, and Gay may or may very well not be there in Moscow with his history; what Gay is doing now is utterly irrelevant to Moscow in August. In any event, if Bolt is fit, then in the very unlikely chance that Gay can get into the 9.6s Bolt will still beat him. Gays 9.71 in 2009 is a while ago.

One of the most important factors to take into consideration when viewing Gay's form versus previous seasons is Gay's training regime this season. He's not blowing the doors off in training. This new approach is aimed at getting him the staying power not afforded him in previous seasons. Gay ran 9,8 with slower training runs. It makes perfect sense that he'd improve with greater training intensity at the right time of the season.
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby ZELLGADISS » Wed May 08, 2013 2:20 am

bignate88 wrote:
jamboy wrote:
ZELLGADISS wrote:Well for to make 9.69 -0.1 in Lausanne, i think that it shows that Blake has very good top end speed, SURE


Yes versus Tyson's 9.69 with a 2.0 wind.

9.69 represents an average speed: It still doesnt indicate who has more top end speed. Plus those two races were run completely different from each other
If you were to find 10m splits for Blake's and Gay's 9.69 and compare them, that would suffice. Otherwise, it's speculation


Im not totally sure that Blake has better top end speed than Gay, i told that im sure that Blake has very good top end speed.
To make 9.69 without wind, you tell average speed, but it is not totally true.
Hardly Blake made less 6.35 at 60m, he had great start but no so fast like Bolt or Powell.
So his final 40 metres probably were 3.34 or less and i repeat, without WIND.
You will tell speculation, i tell experience(is impossible that Blake made 6.32 or 6.30)

I dont understand the people defense to Gay and tells that he is sure faster that Blake.
The top end speed of Blake is really great.
And of course the top end speed of Bolt does not have rival if he is healthy and in good shape 8-)
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby 26mi235 » Wed May 08, 2013 7:18 am

ZELLGADISS wrote:I dont understand the people defense to Gay and tells that he is sure faster that Blake.
The top end speed of Blake is really great.
And of course the top end speed of Bolt does not have rival if he is healthy and in good shape 8-)


I think that there is a problem with understanding the posters here, possibly because defensive blinders are on. The claim was made that Blake had faster top-end speed, which several posters, including myself, responded to by asking for evidence (and got virtually none). I did not claim Gay's top-end speed was greater, just that I am not certain the Blake's is. I suggest you go back through and see how that question evolved and see if you are reacting etc. That might keep you from getting defensive about the superiority of the Jamaican sprinters.
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tyson top end to yohans top end

Postby blinger » Wed May 08, 2013 8:52 am

if you want proof watch back the 100m olympics finals tyson gay and gatlin came out of the blocks quicker than blake blake caught them at 60m they pressed on him again at 90m and his top end took him away again to victory,all this argument will be settled soon watch back those last dl races late last year and you can get your answers too.blake is very strong and he as been working on his stride lenght for this season and if he gets it right and plus his start that he was displaying in his 9.69 and 9.76 with the latter causing tyson gay to false start knowing that blake's top end is better he tried to get a head start and false started.not to take anything away from tyson gay he is one of my favorite athlete but seeing him run so fast so early does not make him the already winner of the 100m in moscow he will be a factor for sure.i would like to see a dream clash bolt gay blake gatlin powell ryan bailey dix and carter or rogers in brussels over 100m or laussaun later this year that would be a cracker with that been said i think we will be seeing a few 9.7s this year lets wish all the athletes good health.
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Re: tyson top end to yohans top end

Postby bignate88 » Wed May 08, 2013 9:34 am

blinger wrote:if you want proof watch back the 100m olympics finals tyson gay and gatlin came out of the blocks quicker than blake blake caught them at 60m they pressed on him again at 90m and his top end took him away again to victory,all this argument will be settled soon watch back those last dl races late last year and you can get your answers too.blake is very strong and he as been working on his stride lenght for this season and if he gets it right and plus his start that he was displaying in his 9.69 and 9.76 with the latter causing tyson gay to false start knowing that blake's top end is better he tried to get a head start and false started.not to take anything away from tyson gay he is one of my favorite athlete but seeing him run so fast so early does not make him the already winner of the 100m in moscow he will be a factor for sure.i would like to see a dream clash bolt gay blake gatlin powell ryan bailey dix and carter or rogers in brussels over 100m or laussaun later this year that would be a cracker with that been said i think we will be seeing a few 9.7s this year lets wish all the athletes good health.

You still haven't given any solid proof. As was stated earlier, if we can get some 10m splits on the FASTEST runs of Gay and Blake and compare, that could very well show who has more top end. For example, IAAF's biomechanical analysis of Berlin 100m final showed that Bolt and Gay hits speeds of over 44kph, Bolt recording the faster of the two.

But you're right, let's not give out medals prematurely. We'll see how the season unfolds
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby jamboy » Wed May 08, 2013 9:44 am

The only thing that matters is where each will finish on the medal stand.

The top two spots have been reserved for Bolt and Blake :D
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby bignate88 » Wed May 08, 2013 9:46 am

That's if they can cash the check for that exclusive reservation :D
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Re: tyson top end to yohans top end

Postby Grasshopper » Wed May 08, 2013 10:03 am

bignate88 wrote:You still haven't given any solid proof. As was stated earlier, if we can get some 10m splits on the FASTEST runs of Gay and Blake and compare, that could very well show who has more top end. For example, IAAF's biomechanical analysis of Berlin 100m final showed that Bolt and Gay hits speeds of over 44kph, Bolt recording the faster of the two.

But you're right, let's not give out medals prematurely. We'll see how the season unfolds

Here's some links to sites with data on the splits for many championship 100m races:
http://berlin.iaaf.org/mm/Document/Development/Research/05/30/83/20090817081546_httppostedfile_wch09_m100_final_13529.pdf
http://myweb.lmu.edu/jmureika/track/splits/splits.html
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2008/08/beijing-2008-men-100m-race-analysis.html
- In Bolt's 9.69 race in Beijing, his fastest 10m split was .82 and his fastest 20m split was 1.64.
- In Bolt's 9.58 race in Berlin there were no 10m splits taken, but his fastest 20m split was 1.61 (.805 avg).
- In Gay's 9.71 race in Berlin there were no 10m splits take, but his fastest 20m split was 1.63 (.815 avg).
- In Carl Lewis' 9.86 race in Tokyo his fastest 10m split was .83 and his fastest 20m split was 1.67 (.835 avg).
- In Maurice Greene's 9.80 race in Seville his fastest 10m split was "only" .84 and his fastest 20m split was "only" 1.69 (.845 avg).
I'm not aware of any splits available for Blake's fastest races. It is possible, though, that someone can run a faster overall 100m time with an inferior top-speed if their acceleration and/or speed-endurance are superior (as in Greene's 9.80 race in Seville versus Lewis' 9.86 race in Tokyo).
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby gh » Wed May 08, 2013 10:29 am

what those few splits show is that in terms of actual top-end speed, where you're talking about a difference of several 100ths of a second over 10 meters, the actual mph/mps figures are so small as to be insignificant; it's the ability pile on those 100ths over many segments that makes the difference.

It's the most classic optical illusion in our sport: somebody "kicking" (or moving into top gear, or whatever imagery you choose) at the end of a 100 or 200, when in reality it's just the superior sprinters slowing down less.
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby bignate88 » Wed May 08, 2013 11:12 am

gh wrote:what those few splits show is that in terms of actual top-end speed, where you're talking about a difference of several 100ths of a second over 10 meters, the actual mph/mps figures are so small as to be insignificant; it's the ability pile on those 100ths over many segments that makes the difference.

It's the most classic optical illusion in our sport: somebody "kicking" (or moving into top gear, or whatever imagery you choose) at the end of a 100 or 200, when in reality it's just the superior sprinters slowing down less.

As 'insignificant' it may be, it still points to what speeds these runners are in fact approaching. Surely the analysts won't go the lengths of measuring, say, 1m or 5m segments, lol
But for the sake of calculating top end, it has it's place

But you're right, in the context of the actual race, it's maintaining these speeds over many meters that really matters.
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby toyracer » Wed May 08, 2013 11:19 am

bignate88 wrote: 9.69 represents an average speed: It still doesnt indicate who has more top end speed. Plus those two races were run completely different from each other
If you were to find 10m splits for Blake's and Gay's 9.69 and compare them, that would suffice. Otherwise, it's speculation


Exactly. I was hoping that splits would be produced to support the claim.
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby 26mi235 » Wed May 08, 2013 11:50 am

The speed of light is measured down to the centimeter (and maybe beyond). What this means is the time can be measured extremely accurately (10^-10 seconds; i.e., 0.0000000001). Yet, in our splits we cannot get really good measures of speed because we are limited to increments of 0.01, is which is very grainy for this type of assessment. The difficulty is with the placement of the body that is relevant. For this discussion of top speed, the relevant element is the center of mass (and speed here is really velocity, because we are concerned with the vector down the track, not in any other direction).

So, you have to have the right timing equipment, the right location, the right point on each of the bodies at some (e.g. 10m) systematic intervals that can deal with bodies blocking each other. This is a costly undertaking when it does not provide information relevant to the race, per se.
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby nicest person ever » Wed May 08, 2013 4:02 pm

26mi235 wrote:The speed of light is measured down to the centimeter (and maybe beyond). What this means is the time can be measured extremely accurately (10^-10 seconds; i.e., 0.0000000001). Yet, in our splits we cannot get really good measures of speed because we are limited to increments of 0.01, is which is very grainy for this type of assessment. The difficulty is with the placement of the body that is relevant. For this discussion of top speed, the relevant element is the center of mass (and speed here is really velocity, because we are concerned with the vector down the track, not in any other direction).

So, you have to have the right timing equipment, the right location, the right point on each of the bodies at some (e.g. 10m) systematic intervals that can deal with bodies blocking each other. This is a costly undertaking when it does not provide information relevant to the race, per se.


Couldn't they just set up some speed guns on the other end of the track (like, at the edge of the stands of the curve but pointed straight down the 100m straight, 1 gun in each lane, pointed at the front of the waist of each sprinter (rather than the upper chest where the bobbing motion might interfere etc), and just measure their speeds as the sprinters are sprinting straight at the guns the whole way, so you could get a continuous reading, updated say, every 10,000th of a second if you wanted, and could just graph the avg mph on an xy plot with x being time in seconds and y being mph. This would probably be a more accurate method than setting up the tripwire style timers at 10m intervals along the track. I wonder if anyone has ever tried this method.
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby 26mi235 » Wed May 08, 2013 4:10 pm

I do not think that speed guns are that accurate, although if they took repeated measurements every fraction of a second it might have useful information (or there may be correlated errors specific to each device).
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby nicest person ever » Wed May 08, 2013 4:15 pm

26mi235 wrote:I do not think that speed guns are that accurate, although if they took repeated measurements every fraction of a second it might have useful information (or there may be correlated errors specific to each device).


Yea I was gonna say the same thing. But, I'm not completely sure, but I think recently in the past few years they have invented some new type or speedguns that work differently from the older traditional version that have been around for decades that are much much much more accurate, like, to the thousandth of an mph, instead of to the nearest mph. Obviously one that was only accurate to the nearest whole integer mph value would be utterly useless for our purposes, but if there is indeed some newer kind (which works with lasers if I remember correctly), that is accurate to the hundredth or thousandth of an mph, that would be extremely useful. Just stand the guns on some tripods like 20m past the end of each finish line pointed perfectly straight down each lane and just take a continuous measurement of their speed as they come flying fown the track straight towards the guns, and viola, then we would get to put an end to our guesses as to which people actually truly have the highest top speeds when they run the 100m dash, as well as how fast they reach their top speed, and how much and how quickly they decelerate from said top speed, to a much more accurate degree than using mere 10m splits, by comparison. It would be pretty fuckin awesome. My palms are getting a little sweaty just thinking about it lol
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby 26mi235 » Wed May 08, 2013 7:35 pm

But what is moving - the arm, the leg, the head. You need the center of mass, and this is not a point reflecting the beam -- not quite like a baseball or car.
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby nicest person ever » Wed May 08, 2013 8:44 pm

26mi235 wrote:But what is moving - the arm, the leg, the head. You need the center of mass, and this is not a point reflecting the beam -- not quite like a baseball or car.


Well, with the older ones you'd be right, that would be a problem. But for the recent advanced laser ones (not sure these actually exist, but I vaguely think I remember reading about them, I could be way off tho), I think they are a "point" type of thing that you shoot at a tiny point, not a wide beam that takes in a whole blob shaped amount of stuff, coming towards it. Thus, you could just aim the tiny laser point at their belly button, basically. Even so, I guess a big problem would be that the runners don't actually run in a perfectly straight line, but often veer around in their lane from one side of the lane to the other etc, rather than staying dead center in their lane, so even if you aimed a tiny-point right on their belly button center mass, if they slowly veered off to the left or right as they ran, it might be pointed right at their arm or not even be on them at all by the time they are halfway through the race if they've moved sideways enough during the race. So that would be a problem. So, I guess they'd have to bust out these badboys only specifically for very major meets like World Championships and Olympics and stuff like that, where it is realistic to have an individual staff member manning each gun (one for each lane), keeping it pointed at center mass (having it be on a swivel-able tripod sort of like a camera on a tripod), keeping that laser dot on their belly button the whole way through the race as the runners run straight at them, and if the runners sway off to either side of their lane, then just turn it ever so slightly of a miniscule fraction of a degree to the left or right to keep it on their belly button (yes, technically this would make the reading ever so slightly inaccurated once they weren't running straight at the thing and instead a hundredth of a degree off to the left or right, but, it would still probably read accurate to like a thousandth of an mph, instead of a 10,000th of an mph or something, which would still be plenty good enough, especially compared to something like 10m splits by comparison.
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby lonewolf » Wed May 08, 2013 9:00 pm

The devil is in the details but that would be an interesting experiment.
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby 26mi235 » Wed May 08, 2013 9:12 pm

Several things. It is only the velocity vector down the track that matters; the issue of getting different points on the torso (several inches to the left or right will give you slight variations in measured position, but as long as arms/hands do not get in the way it might not matter.

If you look at a runner the torso surges a bit with each stride. This is a combination of the end of the force being applied forward and the more constant resisting force of air resistance. However, there is also the fact that the body goes up and down a non-trivial amount and when it goes up there is an increase in potential energy and a decrease in kinetic energy. This second cycle will over lap the first one, leading to more variation in speed. Also, the torso/center of mass changes a bit as the legs and arms move forward and back, although I am not sure how big an effect that is.

There are probably statistical techniques that could be brought to bear that would integrate across a number of measurements across the stride cycle that would cancel the variations. There are some other statistical options as well, but I am not familiar with them to an extent necessary to think on my feet in this post.
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby nicest person ever » Wed May 08, 2013 9:44 pm

Yea, for one of Bolt's 100m WR runs, I don't remember if it was the Beijing one or the Berlin one, they had a super in-depth velocity analysis where there was an xy graph (y-axis was mph, x-axis was meters of distance down the track from the starting line), and it had this squiggly line, where if you viewed the graph at full size, you could actually see each and every stride he took for the whole entire race. Like, it showed his mph increase and decrease by something like 1 mph up and then 1 mph down for each stride, so it was sort of an overall hill-shaped graph, but the line that the hill was made of was made of a very consistent chain of roughly equal sized tiny squiggles, where each squiggle was his body rocking back and forth per each stride. I'm not sure how they did this, maybe using some ultra-accurate GPS type of thing or something, I dunno, but it was pretty cool. His absolute peak velocity (at the peak of one of the tops of one of the squiggles at around the 60m mark was something like 29.5mph lol. It was beyond sick.

That said, as for your question regarding averaging out/cancelling out the peaks and troughs of these 40-some squiggles to get the overall center body speed, stride-squiggling aside, you can obviously just pass a smooth line through the middle of these squiggles, horizontally like, where it cuts these tiny squiggle-hills (which are what, when combined all together, the main overall hill of the whole graph is made up of) in half, so there is sort of a smooth hill shaped curve line that is basically identical to the shape of the graph, except, middling the peaks and bottoms of the 40-some squiggles that make up the overall arch of the graph, if you see what I'm saying. That line is what represents his overall running speed, correcting for the individual stride ebbs and flows of his running.

This would be so much easier if I could just draw it and post the drawing of one I'm trying to say on here. Bleh. Maybe when I'm less sleepy/more sober I'll try to find the actual graph I'm referring to, or if I can't find it I'll just manually draw an example of what it looked like in mspaint and post the mspaint jpg on here. I just smoked a bowl of weed though and want to chill out and watch some nature programs on tv though, so now's not the best time lol.
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Re: tyson top end to yohans top end

Postby olorin » Wed May 08, 2013 11:21 pm

Grasshopper wrote:
bignate88 wrote:You still haven't given any solid proof. As was stated earlier, if we can get some 10m splits on the FASTEST runs of Gay and Blake and compare, that could very well show who has more top end. For example, IAAF's biomechanical analysis of Berlin 100m final showed that Bolt and Gay hits speeds of over 44kph, Bolt recording the faster of the two.

But you're right, let's not give out medals prematurely. We'll see how the season unfolds

Here's some links to sites with data on the splits for many championship 100m races:
http://berlin.iaaf.org/mm/Document/Development/Research/05/30/83/20090817081546_httppostedfile_wch09_m100_final_13529.pdf
http://myweb.lmu.edu/jmureika/track/splits/splits.html
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2008/08/beijing-2008-men-100m-race-analysis.html
- In Bolt's 9.69 race in Beijing, his fastest 10m split was .82 and his fastest 20m split was 1.64.
- In Bolt's 9.58 race in Berlin there were no 10m splits taken, but his fastest 20m split was 1.61 (.805 avg).
- In Gay's 9.71 race in Berlin there were no 10m splits take, but his fastest 20m split was 1.63 (.815 avg).
- In Carl Lewis' 9.86 race in Tokyo his fastest 10m split was .83 and his fastest 20m split was 1.67 (.835 avg).
- In Maurice Greene's 9.80 race in Seville his fastest 10m split was "only" .84 and his fastest 20m split was "only" 1.69 (.845 avg).
I'm not aware of any splits available for Blake's fastest races. It is possible, though, that someone can run a faster overall 100m time with an inferior top-speed if their acceleration and/or speed-endurance are superior (as in Greene's 9.80 race in Seville versus Lewis' 9.86 race in Tokyo).

Another example that the "top speed" do not play crucial role in the 100:
Johnson and Lewis had the same top speed in Seoul (0.83 for 10m). Both of them reached the top speed between the 60m-70m. Yet Johnson won the race by 0.13 (as he was leading by 0.15 in the 60m mark).
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby shivfan » Thu May 09, 2013 1:36 am

"Behind the warm and respectful applause for Tyson Gay at last Saturday's Jamaica Invitational, there was tangible concern. The quiet American sprinter placed himself squarely in the World Championships sprint picture with a 9.86-second dash over 100 metres. When it was over, he was surrounded by fans with gadgets of various configurations for a photo session befitting a superstar. It was typical Gay - slow start, fast finish. The 9.86 is the fourth-fastest 100-metre run in the 10-year history of the Invitational. Only Asafa Powell, 9.84 in 2005, and Usain Bolt, 9.76 in 2008 and 9.82 last year, are ahead of the Kentucky native in meet history. If you are still worried about the injuries that have slowed Bolt, Powell and Yohan Blake in 2013, here's another tidbit to ponder. Powell's 9.84 stroll was the start of a world-record chase that crested at 9.77 seconds in June. The tall man's monumental run of 9.76 was followed by world records in New York - 9.72 in a race where Gay was second and in the Olympic final at 9.69. Bolt has moved the world record to 9.58 seconds since then, so there's no assurance that Gay - or anyone - will get close anytime soon. It is clear, however, that the American is on his way to a fine season. That puts him on collision course with Jamaica."

http://jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/2013 ... orts3.html
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Re: tyson top end to yohans top end

Postby bignate88 » Thu May 09, 2013 6:19 am

olorin wrote:
Grasshopper wrote:
bignate88 wrote:You still haven't given any solid proof. As was stated earlier, if we can get some 10m splits on the FASTEST runs of Gay and Blake and compare, that could very well show who has more top end. For example, IAAF's biomechanical analysis of Berlin 100m final showed that Bolt and Gay hits speeds of over 44kph, Bolt recording the faster of the two.

But you're right, let's not give out medals prematurely. We'll see how the season unfolds

Here's some links to sites with data on the splits for many championship 100m races:
http://berlin.iaaf.org/mm/Document/Development/Research/05/30/83/20090817081546_httppostedfile_wch09_m100_final_13529.pdf
http://myweb.lmu.edu/jmureika/track/splits/splits.html
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2008/08/beijing-2008-men-100m-race-analysis.html
- In Bolt's 9.69 race in Beijing, his fastest 10m split was .82 and his fastest 20m split was 1.64.
- In Bolt's 9.58 race in Berlin there were no 10m splits taken, but his fastest 20m split was 1.61 (.805 avg).
- In Gay's 9.71 race in Berlin there were no 10m splits take, but his fastest 20m split was 1.63 (.815 avg).
- In Carl Lewis' 9.86 race in Tokyo his fastest 10m split was .83 and his fastest 20m split was 1.67 (.835 avg).
- In Maurice Greene's 9.80 race in Seville his fastest 10m split was "only" .84 and his fastest 20m split was "only" 1.69 (.845 avg).
I'm not aware of any splits available for Blake's fastest races. It is possible, though, that someone can run a faster overall 100m time with an inferior top-speed if their acceleration and/or speed-endurance are superior (as in Greene's 9.80 race in Seville versus Lewis' 9.86 race in Tokyo).

Another example that the "top speed" do not play crucial role in the 100:
Johnson and Lewis had the same top speed in Seoul (0.83 for 10m). Both of them reached the top speed between the 60m-70m. Yet Johnson won the race by 0.13 (as he was leading by 0.15 in the 60m mark).

Top end speed didn't play a crucial role, in THIS example.
Let's say Lewis had a world of a better start/first 40 in Seoul, and was within striking distance of Johnson. Top end speed would then be very crucial. You have to apply it to the context of the race rather than weigh it by itself.
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Re: tyson top end to yohans top end

Postby JRM » Thu May 09, 2013 9:13 am

olorin wrote:Another example that the "top speed" do not play crucial role in the 100:
Johnson and Lewis had the same top speed in Seoul (0.83 for 10m). Both of them reached the top speed between the 60m-70m. Yet Johnson won the race by 0.13 (as he was leading by 0.15 in the 60m mark).


Correct. Two sprinters with the same top-end speed will simply remain the same distance apart during the race. What matters is the acceleration. The sprinter who gets out with a greater acceleration (and has a smaller deceleration) will trump the other one.
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby 26mi235 » Thu May 09, 2013 9:54 am

Well, there is that deceleration bit too; AP is one who suffers more than his opponents in that phase. It begins in the latter part of the race, but is it at 70m or 90 an dis it rapid once it begins.
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