Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]


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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby gh » Mon May 06, 2013 9:51 am

All high-end statistical bodies (think ATFS, FAST) count false starts as losses. As they should.

That part of proper number-keeping has been part of the sport since time immemorial, and no amount of obfuscation will change that fact.
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby ZELLGADISS » Mon May 06, 2013 10:28 am

IAAF count false start like loss?
Because i read articles IAAF and they dont count it like loss...
Then?¿
To lose when you dont run is not very logical in my opinion :shock:
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby sprintdoc » Mon May 06, 2013 10:36 am

Surprised no one on here has commented on Bolt "skipping" Jamaican meet for Cayman meet just 4 days later! Saying he was too hurt to race then 4 days later race is pretty obvious. Sounds to me like he wasn't offered enough money to run in Kingston, not wanting to give the home town discount he has in the past.
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby JRM » Mon May 06, 2013 10:43 am

ZELLGADISS wrote:IAAF count false start like loss?
Because i read articles IAAF and they dont count it like loss...
Then?¿
To lose when you dont run is not very logical in my opinion :shock:


He did run. Part of "running" is getting in the blocks and reacting to the gun. You don't get to re-define the event to save Bolt's (or anyone's) record.
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby 26mi235 » Mon May 06, 2013 10:46 am

ZELLGADISS wrote:IAAF count false start like loss?
Because i read articles IAAF and they dont count it like loss...
Then?¿
To lose when you dont run is not very logical in my opinion :shock:


What do you mean -- he did not run? He 'cheated' by leaving before the gun and was disqualified. He was entered in the 100m at the WC and did not win that event. Not winning seems to be like losing as far as all of the effects one can quantify. Look at it this way: The start is an important part of the 100m race, and he blew the start so he lost the race.
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby lonewolf » Mon May 06, 2013 10:57 am

A false start is a loss.
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby ZELLGADISS » Mon May 06, 2013 11:23 am

for IAAF is loss?i repeat i read articles in 2010 or 2011, and they did not count that race like loss, and other sites that talk about track and field, same.
then? :roll:
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby bignate88 » Mon May 06, 2013 11:27 am

ZELLGADISS wrote:for IAAF is loss?i repeat i read articles in 2010 or 2011, and they did not count that race like loss, and other sites that talk about track and field, same.
then? :roll:

any links to these articles?
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby ZELLGADISS » Mon May 06, 2013 11:33 am

I would have that find i repeat, late 2011 or beginning 2012(remember by memory), im totally sure read them.
They dont count it like loss, because they talked that last losses for Bolt were Powell(08 Stockholm before OG)and Gay (Stockholm too 10).

And other sites in same age, same, they dont count it like loss.
In sites statistics i imagine that if he is in final , they put it like loss, but i repeat, in articles IAAF i saw several times like no loss.

And IAAF is the most important organization about track and field in the world.
They verify WR, tracks, rules,.. EVERYTHING :roll:
Last edited by ZELLGADISS on Mon May 06, 2013 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby chuku69 » Mon May 06, 2013 11:38 am

sprintdoc wrote:Surprised no one on here has commented on Bolt "skipping" Jamaican meet for Cayman meet just 4 days later! Saying he was too hurt to race then 4 days later race is pretty obvious. Sounds to me like he wasn't offered enough money to run in Kingston, not wanting to give the home town discount he has in the past.


Some of you guys just don't read. It would be good to read instead of putting up uneducated responses. Bolt had a grade one hamstring strain last weekend in training, and they were being extra cautious so that he fully recovers. Bolt said that he consulted with his coach and they decided to run in Cayman because it is less stress running the straight. Why in the world would he skip the meet. That's his hometown. They cannot pay him to run there. Jeeze. You guys are sometimes ridiculous.
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby marknhj » Mon May 06, 2013 12:15 pm

We know Bolt doesn't like paying taxes. I wonder if he has a deal with them just to stick a bunch of cash in a local Cayman Islands account? That would explain his not running in front of his local supporters but showing up less than a week later in a dodgy-tax location.
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby 26mi235 » Mon May 06, 2013 12:25 pm

Why bother with quasi-conspiracy theories here with Bolt. The posters on this board are generally above that and a single mention is enough rather than 27 posts about the possible machinations...

[Also, it was pretty clear that Gay was a replacement for injured stars, not the cause of them skipping the meet.]
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby gh » Mon May 06, 2013 12:28 pm

ZELLGADISS wrote:...
And IAAF is the most important organization about track and field in the world.
They verify WR, tracks, rules,.. EVERYTHING :roll:


errr, no they don't. There are independent statistics bodies with no political agendas who are far better equipped to keep track of the sport's numbers, and they have been for decades. That's the reality.
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby JRM » Mon May 06, 2013 12:33 pm

chuku69 wrote: Why in the world would he skip the meet. That's his hometown. They cannot pay him to run there.


Perhaps I missed something earlier, but why can't they pay him? This is an honest question.
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby chuku69 » Mon May 06, 2013 12:37 pm

JRM wrote:
chuku69 wrote: Why in the world would he skip the meet. That's his hometown. They cannot pay him to run there.


Perhaps I missed something earlier, but why can't they pay him? This is an honest question.


It's no secret that the JAAA has had financial troubles in the past. Secondly, why would Bolt charge his hometown the same price as the circuit. I don't even think he gets paid for appearance fee either. Lastly, when it comes to Jamaica, Bolt treats things differently financial wise.
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby ZELLGADISS » Mon May 06, 2013 1:12 pm

gh wrote:
ZELLGADISS wrote:...
And IAAF is the most important organization about track and field in the world.
They verify WR, tracks, rules,.. EVERYTHING :roll:


errr, no they don't. There are independent statistics bodies with no political agendas who are far better equipped to keep track of the sport's numbers, and they have been for decades. That's the reality.


NO?
IAAF make rules,verify tracks and they tell if is WR or no? Is it true?
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby Marlow » Mon May 06, 2013 2:25 pm

ZELLGADISS wrote:
gh wrote:
ZELLGADISS wrote:[IAAF] verify WR, tracks, rules,.. EVERYTHING :roll:

errr, no they don't. There are independent statistics bodies with no political agendas who are far better equipped to keep track of the sport's numbers, and they have been for decades. That's the reality.

NO?
IAAF make rules,verify tracks and they tell if is WR or no? Is it true?

You said, "EVERYTHING". The ATFS is the sport's statistical care-taker, NOT the IAAF. If they say it's a loss (which they do), it's a loss. Just like when T&FN says someone is ranked #1 in the world, THAT is the fact of the matter. The IAAF tried and FAILED (miserably) to come up with a ranking system.
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby ZELLGADISS » Mon May 06, 2013 2:39 pm

Marlow but IAAF tells rules, WRS, materials for tracks,..
They are the most important organization.
Who dont want see it, is blind really.

And if IAAF in a article comments that no loss for Bolt in that race, i dont think that im telling nothing stupid.
Bolt lost with Powell, with Gay and with Blake in trials, it is sure.
In Daegu lost with Blake,Collins,Lemaitre,... with everybody?No.

Nobody go change my opinion, and i repeat that other sites and articles IAAF think same, so i dont think that im mad :lol:

End of the theme :wink:
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby JRM » Mon May 06, 2013 3:33 pm

chuku69 wrote:It's no secret that the JAAA has had financial troubles in the past. Secondly, why would Bolt charge his hometown the same price as the circuit.


No one said he'd charge the same price as the circuit. But this is a business for him, not a charity. I'd be surprised if he didn't charge something.

I don't even think he gets paid for appearance fee either. Lastly, when it comes to Jamaica, Bolt treats things differently financial wise.


Do you know that for a fact, or is it conjecture (esp. how he treats Jamaica)? Lots of national federations are strapped for cash, but that doesn't stop athletes from taking it.
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby mump boy » Mon May 06, 2013 3:37 pm

To clarify, my point wasn't that Bolt hadn't lost in 6 years (he has and a FS is a loss) it was that he hasn't lost to Gay. Apparently i was wrong and he did lose a race in '10 !! something i have no recollection of

Even so, it doesn't negate my point that it is impossible to even comment on Gay's ability to win in Moscow before anyone else, with mahousively more impressive claims, have even competed
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby 26mi235 » Mon May 06, 2013 3:40 pm

The IAAF thinks that the Women's 100m WR is 10.49.

End of discussion - something that is "official" is not necessarily relevant to what is true in the sport. The W-L records count in such things as T&FN event and AOY rankings - the FS is a loss.

Also, if you look at collegiate competition, you are listed as competing and you did not win - the only logical conclusion is that you lost, as winning/losing is a binary proposition, aside from ties, and no one had ever thought that Bolt tied.

So:

He was in the competition
He did not win
Ergo, he lost

You can play by whatever rules/definitions you want. I think what you are interested in is the opinions of those that follow the sport closely. I notice that you are on the T&FN forum, not on the (no longer extant, because people did not care enough to make it viable) IAAF forum.

Now, can you tell us why you are so persistent in pushing this opinion? Bolt has enough honors, giving him ones that he does not deserve does not make him greater - although it might diminish his real accomplishments because when you start having the Usain Bolt exceptions, it tarnishes his record.
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby jamboy » Mon May 06, 2013 3:54 pm

JRM wrote:
chuku69 wrote: Why in the world would he skip the meet. That's his hometown. They cannot pay him to run there.


Perhaps I missed something earlier, but why can't they pay him? This is an honest question.



"Paying" him is not the issue. Also, Bolt doesn't get his $250,000 at every meet he runs. If he did, small meets like the Cayman Invitational wouldn't have money to pay for much more athletes.

His fee is relative to the size of the meet/meet budget.
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby Marlow » Mon May 06, 2013 4:01 pm

ZELLGADISS wrote:And if IAAF in a article comments that no loss for Bolt in that race, i dont think that im telling nothing stupid.

Talk about not shooting the messenger! You are referring to a writer for an IAAF article, NOT the IAAF. A writer can easily take that perspective if s/he wishes - the IAAF would have no comment, because . . . it does not comment on that sort of thing. The IAAF has no opinion in the matter, because it does NOT relate to the rules (as you correctly identify its function).
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby DentyCracker » Mon May 06, 2013 5:26 pm

DQ is meet dir. at JII. Glen Mills is Bolt's coach. Those who know, know what I say. That's all I have to say about that bit of commess.
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby ATK » Mon May 06, 2013 5:30 pm

mump boy wrote:Apparently i was wrong and he did lose a race in '10 !! something i have no recollection of

:?
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby jamboy » Mon May 06, 2013 5:40 pm

DentyCracker wrote:DQ is meet dir. at JII. Glen Mills is Bolt's coach. Those who know, know what I say. That's all I have to say about that bit of commess.


Not a secret. Both meet diretor Quarrie and Coach Mills had a huge public blowout last year and thus, Bolt's injury just for the meet is no surprise.

Now the real question is, is Blake "really injured?
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby ExCoastRanger » Mon May 06, 2013 5:43 pm

26mi235 wrote:Why bother with quasi-conspiracy theories here with Bolt. The posters on this board are generally above that and a single mention is enough rather than 27 posts about the possible machinations...

[Also, it was pretty clear that Gay was a replacement for injured stars, not the cause of them skipping the meet.]


Well yeah. I apologize for my small part. Couldn't resist. Sometimes it's just so easy....
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby DentyCracker » Mon May 06, 2013 6:50 pm

jamboy wrote:
DentyCracker wrote:DQ is meet dir. at JII. Glen Mills is Bolt's coach. Those who know, know what I say. That's all I have to say about that bit of commess.


Not a secret. Both meet diretor Quarrie and Coach Mills had a huge public blowout last year and thus, Bolt's injury just for the meet is no surprise.

Now the real question is, is Blake "really injured?

Blake is hurt, but not too badly. The camp is taking no chances.
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby jamboy » Mon May 06, 2013 7:13 pm

DentyCracker wrote:
jamboy wrote:
DentyCracker wrote:DQ is meet dir. at JII. Glen Mills is Bolt's coach. Those who know, know what I say. That's all I have to say about that bit of commess.


Not a secret. Both meet diretor Quarrie and Coach Mills had a huge public blowout last year and thus, Bolt's injury just for the meet is no surprise.

Now the real question is, is Blake "really injured?

Blake is hurt, but not too badly. The camp is taking no chances.


Can I see that MRI just to make sure :D
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby eldanielfire » Mon May 06, 2013 9:55 pm

mump boy wrote:To clarify, my point wasn't that Bolt hadn't lost in 6 years (he has and a FS is a loss) it was that he hasn't lost to Gay. Apparently i was wrong and he did lose a race in '10 !! something i have no recollection of


Here's the reminder:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBtj7B93ffU

Even so, it doesn't negate my point that it is impossible to even comment on Gay's ability to win in Moscow before anyone else, with mahousively more impressive claims, have even competed


It isn't impossible to comment, all the guys who are likely medallists all tend to start the season at a certain pace and get faster. If somebody, like Gay here, starts off in obviously better than usual form, then people can start formulating the picture for Moscow. That doesn't mean it will be accurate in 5 months time but it's a starting piece of evidence that will initiate the picture, which will change as the year progresses. What's the pint of a message board discussion if people can't use races to speculate using whatever measurements and evidence that they can? It's half the fun.
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby 26mi235 » Mon May 06, 2013 10:21 pm

I was thinking of a somewhat similar reply -- good thing I did not because you brought more to the table than I would have.
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby Daisy » Mon May 06, 2013 10:25 pm

eldanielfire wrote:What's the point of a message board discussion if people can't use races to speculate using whatever measurements and evidence that they can? It's half the fun.


Last year Tyson opened with a 10.00 at Adidas Grand Prix. He ran 9.80 in the London final. So in Moscow he will run 9.66. Bolt will probably false start since he'll be so anxious to get away quickly. Assuming he makes it out of the semi-finals. :wink:
Last edited by Daisy on Tue May 07, 2013 4:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby nicest person ever » Mon May 06, 2013 10:52 pm

edit: nevermind... sigh...
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby jamboy » Tue May 07, 2013 5:44 am

Daisy wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:What's the point of a message board discussion if people can't use races to speculate using whatever measurements and evidence that they can? It's half the fun.


Last year Tyson opened with a 10.00 at Adidas Grand Prix. He ran 9.80 in the London final. So in Moscow he will run 9.66. Bolt will probably false start since he'll be so anxious to get away quickly. Assuming he makes it out of the semi-finals. :wink:



Keep dreaming. Won't happen again.
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby 26mi235 » Tue May 07, 2013 7:34 am

Well, maybe it won't happen again; however, I bet you never thought it would happen the first time. I, on the other hand did think it would happen the first time. However, I was also aware that if I posted that I would be flamed etc. Thus, I sent a PM to one of the sprint-oriented posters saying why I thought it might happen.

Given similar circumstances I think it less likely to happen because I think that they will have addressed some of the reasons why it occurred. I do not think that it is that likely to happen, but if both Gay and Blake are running 9.6s and Gay is a little off his game like he was that year in the 100 it is not beyond the pale.
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby blinger » Tue May 07, 2013 8:44 am

i have to ask why is there so much squabbling about who will win gold in moscow ? the season as just begun and this is not the first time gay as run a splendid time early in a season and a world championship year and what was the result in the championshps? bolt won.a fit tyson and a fit bolt, bolt will always win remember usain stride lenght will take him to the front of the field even if he is behind don't you guys ever forget this,and as for blake he is a monster beast and is top end speed is ahead of tyson's and if he continues to start like how he was starting at the last part of the season 2012 neither gay nor gatlin will beat him.and let me inform you guys about something blake is ok and bolt too you don't know the type of politics going on between their camp and a certain big official in track and field from jamaica so all who think they are injured and will not be at their best you are going to be surprised they are more dangerous than ever before beware!!!!
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby jamboy » Tue May 07, 2013 9:03 am

blinger wrote:i have to ask why is there so much squabbling about who will win gold in moscow ? the season as just begun and this is not the first time gay as run a splendid time early in a season and a world championship year and what was the result in the championshps? bolt won.a fit tyson and a fit bolt, bolt will always win remember usain stride lenght will take him to the front of the field even if he is behind don't you guys ever forget this,and as for blake he is a monster beast and is top end speed is ahead of tyson's and if he continues to start like how he was starting at the last part of the season 2012 neither gay nor gatlin will beat him.and let me inform you guys about something blake is ok and bolt too you don't know the type of politics going on between their camp and a certain big official in track and field from jamaica so all who think they are injured and will not be at their best you are going to be surprised they are more dangerous than ever before beware!!!!



Tell it to them. Lots of politricking going on in track and field JA. :D
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby toyracer » Tue May 07, 2013 9:49 am

blinger wrote:and as for blake he is a monster beast and is top end speed is ahead of tyson's


is there any evidence to support this claim?
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby jamboy » Tue May 07, 2013 9:52 am

toyracer wrote:
blinger wrote:and as for blake he is a monster beast and is top end speed is ahead of tyson's


is there any evidence to support this claim?



This is clearly evidenced in the 200m especially when Blake ran 19.26 in Brussels in 2011.
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Re: Jamaica Invitational , May 4th [Gay 9.86 WL]

Postby 26mi235 » Tue May 07, 2013 9:59 am

Boy that was impressive-- to the question about top-end speed you reply with the time in an event that does not generate the top speeds of the 100.

There may be some evidence, but the first attempt provides nothing on the question at hand.
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