Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]


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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake

Postby Brian » Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:47 pm

Bob Duncan wrote:Yeah, Jenny Simpson was FIERCE tonight!



A great time under windy conditions...yup, she's definitely back on Wetmore/Burroughs' strength-emphasizing program--!
.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake

Postby Master Po » Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:36 pm

Yes -- excellent time for Simpson. Her 3:59.90 PB from 2009 is of course an outstanding performance, but this 4:03.35 is her 2nd best 1500 time. Her PB and her other 4:03-4:05 times are from later in the season (e.g., June & later). So, this is a really good mark for her.

Also, very good time for Reid -- her PB is 4:07.07 (July 2012) -- so, to run 4:07 in April bodes well for her, imo.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake

Postby olorin » Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:32 pm

Master Po wrote:Yes -- excellent time for Simpson. Her 3:59.90 PB from 2009 is of course an outstanding performance, but this 4:03.35 is her 2nd best 1500 time. Her PB and her other 4:03-4:05 times are from later in the season (e.g., June & later). So, this is a really good mark for her.

Also, very good time for Reid -- her PB is 4:07.07 (July 2012) -- so, to run 4:07 in April bodes well for her, imo.

Just to complete the picture:
Kate Grace's 4:08.24 is a new PB (previous PB 4:10.57). A new name for me - she is 23 years old and a former (?) 800 runner (PB 2:01.63). I guess with the current depth in the 800 in the US she has a better chance in the 1,500.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby EPelle » Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:43 pm

Shades of Barcelona

Barcelona: 4.04, 4.07, 4.08, 4.09, 4.09, 4.11,01 HSR
Drake Rel: 4.03, 4.07, 4.08, 4.09, 4.10, 4.10,77 HSR
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby nevetsllim » Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:43 am

Wow. Really pleased for Jenny. Her second fastest time ever and I didn't realise her PB was set back when she was still predominantly a steeplechaser.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby gh » Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:04 am

all-time HS top 10 now posted to front page.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby az2004 » Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:12 am

just saw yhe race on espn3

simpson looked very strong

august is a long ways off and who knows who will be peaked then, but jenny looked good for april
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby odelltrclan » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:09 am

Aaronk after all the hype and speculation leading up to the race and not a peep since? Come on and give us your take on it!
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby kuha » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:15 am

odelltrclan wrote:Aaronk after all the hype and speculation leading up to the race and not a peep since? Come on and give us your take on it!


On "vacation."
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby odelltrclan » Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:38 pm

kuha wrote:
odelltrclan wrote:Aaronk after all the hype and speculation leading up to the race and not a peep since? Come on and give us your take on it!


On "vacation."


Must have missed that one. Just watched the replay of the race. Good to see Simpson looking so strong and enthused. That was a fantastic run, especially given the conditions and just hope she peaks at the right time this year. Saw Brenda Martinez at Penn today. She is looking very strong as well. Hope to see her mix it up with some of these other ladies in a big race soon.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake

Postby Gleason » Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:15 pm

donley2 wrote:Absolutely thrilled to be wrong. Fantastic run by Jen Simpson. 403. Unbelievable. High school record for Cain.

1 Jenny Simpson New Balance 4:03.35
2 Sheila Reid Nike 4:07.92
3 Kate Grace United States 4:08.24
4 Shannon Rowbury Nike 4:09.05
5 Gabriele Anderson United States 4:10.32
6 Mary Cain United States 4:10.77
7 Sarah Bowman New Balance 4:11.31
8 Emma Coburn Colorado 4:11.36
9 Morgan Uceny adidas 4:17.71
10 Ashley Miller Asics 4:19.86
11 Heather Kamph Asics 4:20.80
-- Renee Tomlin United States DNF

What happened to Morgan Uceny? Did she fall again?
Last edited by Gleason on Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby Tuariki » Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:42 pm

odelltrclan wrote:Aaronk after all the hype and speculation leading up to the race and not a peep since? Come on and give us your take on it!

Same here. I hope Aaronk is ok as it concerns me he has made no comment. He made 32 postings on 25, 26 April. Given his fascination with Mary Cain it doesn't seem like him not to have commented within seconds of the race finishing.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby Conor Dary » Sat Apr 27, 2013 3:27 pm

For those interested the reason for his....vacation...

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=50431
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby Brian » Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:20 pm

Conor Dary wrote:For those interested the reason for his....vacation...

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=50431


Well, at least now we won't have that exclamation mark shortage of which scholars have recently warned.

[I do like Aaron's enthusiasm, though. Revved down a notch--as was suggested--it should all balance out.]
.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby Brian » Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:26 pm

Most of the people I have spoken with about Cain have tapped into Salazar's attitude: she is a great talent and if she is developed properly, there are a lot of good things ahead. And as fans of the sport, there is plenty of time to simply enjoy what happens without inadvertently putting pressure on her or any of her collaborators by engaging in wild speculation.

[Robin Williams preacher voice]

Can I hear an "Amen", brothers--?!!?

.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby Gleason » Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:53 pm

Brian wrote:Most of the people I have spoken with about Cain have tapped into Salazar's attitude: she is a great talent and if she is developed properly, there are a lot of good things ahead. And as fans of the sport, there is plenty of time to simply enjoy what happens without inadvertently putting pressure on her or any of her collaborators by engaging in wild speculation.
[Robin Williams preacher voice]
Can I hear an "Amen", brothers--?!!?
.

I agree. If she fails to make the team for the Senior World Championships - as I expect - she can qualify for the Youth World Championships at St. Louis two days later. She could make the team at either 1500 or 800, but if she wants to double only 3000 and 2000St. is a reasonable double at the US and World Championships.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby JumboElliott » Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:28 pm

I hope she forgoes the USATF meet and focuses on winning at World Youths.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby 26mi235 » Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:22 pm

Gleason wrote: If she fails to make the team for the Senior World Championships - as I expect - she can qualify for the Youth World Championships at St. Louis two days later. She could make the team at either 1500 or 800, but if she wants to double only 3000 and 2000St. is a reasonable double at the US and World Championships.


I think that you can only run one race longer than 400m at Youth Worlds, I think.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby Gleason » Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:31 pm

Thanks for the info. According to T&FN winning times at the 2011 World Youth at 800, 1500 and 3000 were faster than Cain's PRs, so one race there makes sense.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake

Postby Dutra5 » Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:18 pm

Gleason wrote:
donley2 wrote:Absolutely thrilled to be wrong. Fantastic run by Jen Simpson. 403. Unbelievable. High school record for Cain.

1 Jenny Simpson New Balance 4:03.35
2 Sheila Reid Nike 4:07.92
3 Kate Grace United States 4:08.24
4 Shannon Rowbury Nike 4:09.05
5 Gabriele Anderson United States 4:10.32
6 Mary Cain United States 4:10.77
7 Sarah Bowman New Balance 4:11.31
8 Emma Coburn Colorado 4:11.36
9 Morgan Uceny adidas 4:17.71
10 Ashley Miller Asics 4:19.86
11 Heather Kamph Asics 4:20.80
-- Renee Tomlin United States DNF

What happened to Morgan Uceny? Did she fall again?


Pretty much straight to the rear and stayed there.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby odelltrclan » Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:45 am

Gleason wrote:Thanks for the info. According to T&FN winning times at the 2011 World Youth at 800, 1500 and 3000 were faster than Cain's PRs, so one race there makes sense.


That might be the one meet when competing with other youth she may be challenged. But in the U.S. there is very little of that unless she wants to mix it up with the elite. So I guess it comes down to what motivates her.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake

Postby Gleason » Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:58 am

Gleason wrote:
donley2 wrote:What happened to Morgan Uceny? Did she fall again?

Pretty much straight to the rear and stayed there.

Thanks for the update.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby booond » Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:35 pm

Cain will have to run against Senior Women but expectations must be tempered as she's 16. She will not break the AR this year, if ever. She is not likely to make the WC team this year, if ever.

Best thing for her is to gain experience running multiple heats in the US Champs then run against the best in the world her age. Building her up without burning her out is key to her development. Since Salazar has done this with Rupp it is possible he'll be good for Cain, too. Running 4:10 is great but the winner ran 4:03. Perspective.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby TxHottrack » Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:30 am

I don't see this young girl heading to college coming her senior year. Especially, if she contines to compete this way next season. Well, let me correct myself. I can see her in college but not competing for her college team.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby Dutra5 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:35 pm

booond wrote:Cain will have to run against Senior Women but expectations must be tempered as she's 16. She will not break the AR this year, if ever. She is not likely to make the WC team this year, if ever.



I hope a national sweep of razor blades was done before you typed this. :lol:
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:48 pm

Does Cain still compete in high school meets? I could easily see her single-handedly almost winning a team championship by herself if she ran just fast enough to win multiple events, before flexing her muscles in her final event.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:05 pm

Well, Laura Roesler did a wide range and won almost all of her four events most of her four (plus) years. However, Cain is in New York, not North Dakota, so beating a bunch of decent runners would be a stiffer task. I would think that the 800/1600/3200 triple would be all she could garner (except that Bronxville has a pretty good relay team or two).

Of course, the bigger the state, the more the points of opponents will be split as well. A few years back a gal in Texas single-highhandedly won state in the smallest school division. Also I guy from Montana did the same there in the 1990s, but he was eventually a decathlete.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby odelltrclan » Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:45 pm

I doubt she gets much motivation from beating high school talent. Everyone knows she is by far and away the best at the state level. Why risk injury to even attempt to satisfy someone that others would only view you as a failure as for not doing? The only real competition she has is the U.S. elite women and world elite youth. She might have to decide which she runs this year if running both is too close. It would be nice if they would let her on the world youth team and let her performance at USATF be the qualifier but I doubt that would happen.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:03 pm

I don't see why she wouldn't get as much gratification out of winning a team state championship as Lebron James did when he was in high school, or as Missy Franklin did just a couple of months ago.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:24 pm

Well, none of the USA Gymnastics Olympians compete in their state high school competitions. I am not sure than any of the larger number of Elites do (I will ask my (very) local expert). This might be because USA Gymnastics prohibits it. Only a few of them go back later and compete in college. Of course, the women's team is composed almost entirely of 16-19 year olds, and those born in the year after the Olympics you are probably out of luck, as not many 19-year olds make the team.

Clearly, Cain's path is fundamentally different from other high school track and field athletes; she is generally far above them and in a highly marketable portion of the sport. Notice that she is probably not any better relative to the top US athletes in some of the throws and high jump this last year (but this has been pointed out before). Yet they competed in high school events as well, I think, although it is easier to do so in the throws and high jump.

I do wonder a little if the 4:15 will change people's perception of how far ahead Cain actually is?
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby Dutra5 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:32 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:Does Cain still compete in high school meets? I could easily see her single-handedly almost winning a team championship by herself if she ran just fast enough to win multiple events, before flexing her muscles in her final event.


I don't see that this was ever answered. No she doesn't.

My concern with Cain is less competitive than it is social. Sports is a big social activity to most high schoolers. My son is graduating this year from HS and has a scholarship to play football in college. So he's fairly high level even if not an NFL prospect. Based on my observation, his social interaction and development has been the most important aspect of his participation in the sport with teammates and players on other teams.

Hopefully, part of her "plan" with the Salazar group was to allow for this interaction although I'm not sure at all how this happens as it doesn't make sense to me logistically.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:47 pm

This is generally true for the 90% of high school athletes that do not go on seriously in college. It is also generally true of 95%++ for college athletes on scholarship. However, for those at the very top (look at gymnastics, pianists, chess players, physicists, soccer players, ice hockey players, ... it is less true the further along they go.

Cain stayed 'normal' until she was 16 but at that point, career aspects start to lead to potentially atypical paths. That does not de-legitimize the standard social functioning of sports and teams. Track and Field is not inherently a team sport (XC is, by comparison) and the social interactions become a bit different when the objectives diverge.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby CookyMonzta » Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:06 pm

Don't look now, but Mary may have company in the 1,500/mile. At this past Sunday's Payton Jordan meet at Stanford, Elise Cranny (class of 2014) ran 4:15.07 for #3 all-time.

Payton Jordan - Cardinal Invite - Apr 28, 2013
Cobb Track & Angell Field, Stanford University, 295 Galvez St, Stanford, CA, US, 94305
Timing/Results by: Record Timing - San Francisco - CA - Timing C

Womens 1500m Section 2 Back to top
Name Yr School Finals H# Pts
1 Moultrie, Josephine New Mexico 4:14.44 1
2 Fedronic, Justine Stanford 4:14.69 1
3 Cranny, Elise Unattached 4:15.07 1
4 Mecke, Dana Unattached 4:15.49 1
5 Salerno, Melissa New Balance 4:16.02 1
6 Curl, Sophie San Francisco 4:16.09 1
7 Adler, Monica Unattached 4:16.72 1
8 Hagans, Lauren Asics 4:17.00 1
9 Hall, Linden Florida State 4:19.47 1
10 Wood, Keri Arkansas 4:21.07 1
-- Anderson, Chloe New Mexico DNF 1
-- Ainsworth, Imogen New Mexico DNF 1

Read more: News - 2013 Results - Payton Jordan - Cardinal Invite http://www.runnerspace.com/news.php?new ... z2RvakPAO4
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby booond » Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:53 am

jazzcyclist wrote:I don't see why she wouldn't get as much gratification out of winning a team state championship as Lebron James did when he was in high school, or as Missy Franklin did just a couple of months ago.


LeBron plays a team sport and didn't have a professional outlet.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:50 am

booond wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:I don't see why she wouldn't get as much gratification out of winning a team state championship as Lebron James did when he was in high school, or as Missy Franklin did just a couple of months ago.


LeBron plays a team sport and didn't have a professional outlet.

What are you talking about? High school and college track are team sports. And not that it matters since Cain, like Missy Franklin, is still an amateur, but James certainly did have a professional outlet since the NBA didn't yet have any age restrictions when he turned pro.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby booond » Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:10 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
booond wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:I don't see why she wouldn't get as much gratification out of winning a team state championship as Lebron James did when he was in high school, or as Missy Franklin did just a couple of months ago.


LeBron plays a team sport and didn't have a professional outlet.

What are you talking about? High school and college track are team sports. And not that it matters since Cain, like Missy Franklin, is still an amateur, but James certainly did have a professional outlet since the NBA didn't yet have any age restrictions when he turned pro.
.

When LeBron was 16 there was no professional outlet as you had to be a high school graduate to join the NBA. He and his mother considered petitioning the NBA to change the rules but decided against it.

Track and field is an individual sport. That scores are calculated based on performance doesn't make it a team sport.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:12 pm

booond wrote:When LeBron was 16 there was no professional outlet as you had to be a high school graduate to join the NBA. He and his mother considered petitioning the NBA to change the rules but decided against it.

Could you please provide a link to this "high school graduate" rule? By the way, the NBA isn't the only professional outlet for basketball. In case you didn't know it, there are thriving pro leagues in Europe and China.
booond wrote:Track and field is an individual sport. That scores are calculated based on performance doesn't make it a team sport.

Oh, so now you're playing semantics. Just because you say that high school and college track aren't team sports, doesn't make it so, and the folks who run this website certainly agree with me, lest I'm imagining the weekly updates of team rankings that regularly appear on the front page. And you still haven't addressed Missy Franklin's situation nor the fact that Cain is still competing as an amateur.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby br » Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:44 pm

Beginning in 1971, underclassmen were allowed to enter the NBA Draft provided they could give evidence of “hardship” to the NBA office. In 1976 the hardship requirement was eliminated in favor of the current Early Entry procedure, whereby any athlete with remaining college eligibility can enter the NBA Draft on the condition that he notifies the league office at least 45 days before the draft. International players could declare eligibility in the calendar year of their 18th birthday, or later.

Starting with the 2006 NBA Draft, the eligibility rules have changed.

http://www.thedraftreview.com/index.php ... Itemid=122
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby runforlife » Wed May 01, 2013 1:53 pm

Interesting that Queen Mary's 1500m time was very close to the HS boy's 1600m Relay's record winning time of 4:10.86 by Josh Evans of Linn-Mar. This broke the Relays record of 4:11.57 by Steve Greiner of Pekin in 1979.
However, Doug Smith of Sioux Falls set the Relays mile record of 4:12.6 in 1968. When doing comparisons and calculations, Smith's record is actually superior to Greiner's. Even factoring in FAT.
Therefore Evans actually broke the 45 year old Smith record.
The all time IA HS record miler, Ed Delashmutt of Fort Madison, was denied a shot at the Relay's mile record in 1976, This is because a 1500m HS boy's race was held that year for the first and only time in Relay's history.

Did Greiner ever realize he never really ran faster than Smith?
Did Smith know he held the Relay's record for 45 years?
Was Delashmutt upset he never had a chance at the record in '76?

It would be interesting to know where these 3 are today and what they are doing.
Any information???
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby aaronk » Thu May 02, 2013 10:24 pm

Back from my "vacation"......
at Walla Walla State Prison.....
errrr, Pago Pago.....
ummmmm, Bellingham WA!!

And thought the best place for a "first returning comment" was the....
Scene of the "Crime"!!

But WHAT crime??
Being overly enthused about a 16 year old (Now 17!!! Happy Birthday, Mary Cain!!!!) high school girl's MEGA-talents and abilities and potential??

So much so that one NUTCASE went so far as to suggest that Mary's DAD should be CONCERNED???
(BTW, my reaction to that insane remark.......2 :lol: 's and 1 :roll: ......would be, and remains the same now as what got me sent on "vacation"!!)

So I guess all those SCREAMING, FAINTING, ORGASMING adolescent Justin Beiber fans should be sent on "vacation" too???
(Not that any of the above was occurring in my liking of Ms Cain!!!)

Come to think of it, maybe Alberto Salazar should be sent up the creek for a week too!!
After all, in that recent article on Cain, Alberto called Mary (paraphrased) "the greatest female talent he's ever seen" !!

You know what, Mr Salazar......
I totally agree with you!!!

P.S. Happy to be back!!
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