Footnote Athletes


A place for the discussion of all things not closely related to the sport and its competitive side. (as always, locked for the duration of major international championship)

Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby Conor Dary » Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:33 am

I already mentioned Hubbs.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby KDFINE » Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:49 am

Campy as a footnote! Ridiculous! Three times MVP and Hall of Fame. He was already on the decline when he had his auto accident. Fortunately for his legacy he got to the major leagues while he still had a lot left. Not to many get to the big leagues when they are 27 years old.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby bijanc » Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:52 am

Even fewer are catching f/ the Nicetown Giants when they are 15.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby Per Andersen » Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:01 am

Sprints - John Carlos. ITA happened so no Carlos-Borzov in "71 and '72.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby bambam » Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:09 am

gh wrote:I remember Dick Button nearly spoiling his tux in doing the Wide World Of Sports commentary.


I remember that too
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby cullman » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:25 am

bambam wrote:
gh wrote:I remember Dick Button nearly spoiling his tux in doing the Wide World Of Sports commentary.


I remember that too

There are a few figure skating geeks that collect and trade old film and video. The Donald Jackson skate and post skate interview as well as clips of the 1961 US Nationals are on youtube.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby gh » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:35 am

Per Andersen wrote:Sprints - John Carlos. ITA happened so no Carlos-Borzov in "71 and '72.


except ITA didn't sign anybody until post-Munich, with first season in '73, so had nothing to do with Carlos.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby Conor Dary » Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:50 pm

Per Andersen wrote:Sprints - John Carlos. ITA happened so no Carlos-Borzov in "71 and '72.


It is hard to imagine anyone less of footnote than Carlos or as mentioned Campanella.

What is this thread about? The premise, as I understand, is about athletes who because of some misfortune, injury, or in most cases dying, never had a chance to show their early promise. Carlos had his chance: The 1968 Olympics and did relatively well, plus all of the other races he ran.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby jhc68 » Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:18 pm

"Footnote athlete" is obviously pretty tough to define. To me it implies a certain element of fabulous potential along with a heavy dose of coulda, woulda, shoulda beens.

I still can't see a Lew Hoad fitting that category: He was an International Tennis Hall of Famer, Sport Australia Hall of Famer and his obit ran in the NYTimes... that's pretty main stream in my view and an athlete of his stature shouldn't be categorized as a footnote.

Sure Hoad got screwed by the whole professionalisim transition in tennis, but not nearly as much as Rod Laver. Laver won the grand slam in 1962 and then after turning pro was left out for most of five years, then won the grand slam again in 1969. How many more majors could he have won during those lost years?

Regardless, no way Rod Laver is a footnote to the sport. But he deserves an asterisk of on the list of major title winners... he also deserves something for being one of the classiest champions in any sport. I met Laver a couple of times and know people who know him very well, and he seems universally regarded as one of the nicest guys on earth!

I'm all in with Per nominating Yashchencko - the last straddle WR-holder and absent career ending injuries may well have pushed the WR to 2.40.

Another trackster is Eddie Morris... 9.6 and 20.7 straightaway at Huntington Beach HS in 1940, then tears a hammie and he's all done. Don Potts estimated that the 1940 Morris would have been among the top HS 10 sprinters nationally five decades later.

And Wes Santee, of course.

Of the original post names, Hall and Looney are foot-note-able legends. Earl Manigault is a footnote phantom. A 6'1" guy on the playground who could grab dollar bills off the TOP of a standard backboard? It never could have happened but it makes a hell of an interesting, enduring footworthy fable.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby bambam » Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:57 pm

Yeah, Hoad had a good career but I put him in there because he's sorta one of those guys known mostly to the cognoscenti of the sport or sports in general.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby Per Andersen » Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:53 pm

Conor Dary wrote:
Per Andersen wrote:Sprints - John Carlos. ITA happened so no Carlos-Borzov in "71 and '72.


It is hard to imagine anyone less of footnote than Carlos or as mentioned Campanella.

What is this thread about? The premise, as I understand, is about athletes who because of some misfortune, injury, or in most cases dying, never had a chance to show their early promise. Carlos had his chance: The 1968 Olympics and did relatively well, plus all of the other races he ran.

Carlos fits the bill. Social reasons. His career was unfulfilled in my opinion. He was on top of his game in 1969-70. So he turned to Football after the 1970 season. He was about 25. One more season and he could have met Borzov.

BTW Lew Hoad sure as hell was no footnote.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby gh » Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:37 am

bijanc wrote:Baseball: Herb Score, Tony Conigliaro, Ray Fosse, Wayne Simpson, Lyman Bostock
Pro Football: Greg Cook, David Overstreet, Ernie Davis, Joe Delaney, Darryl Stingley
Basketball: Sherm White, Ed Warner, Roger Brown, Lenny Bias
T & F: Skeets Nehemiah, Steve Williams, Mary Decker, Ana Fidelia Quirot


Yikes! somehow my original response to this ended up on a banned thread.

Re Conigliaro, coincidentally, he was the answer to a trivia question on local baseball radio this afternoon. "Who hit the most home runs as a teenager?"
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby jhc68 » Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:13 am

Yeah I wondered if you had begun banning yourself!?!
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby KDFINE » Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:48 am

Lindy McDaniel's younger brother Von. I think he won 15 games in his first or second season and did nothing after that, having arm toubles. Whoever it was that mentioned Karl Spooner was spot on. He was in double digits for strikeouts in his first two major league shutout wins,and then ran into arm trouble. I still have my all black Karl Spooner model Nokona baseball mitt.
Another genuine footnote athlete was Lowell Perry. I think he was NFL rookie of the year in '56 or so, broke his pelvis, and never played again. He played end for the Steelers and then I think may have moved into the front office.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby cullman » Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:30 pm

Another player blacklisted by the NBA for failing to report a bribe attempt was St. John's two time All-American Tony Jackson.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/02/sport ... .html?_r=0

Roy Emerson is almost a footnote...even with his 12 Singles Grand Slam Titles from 1961-7.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby Conor Dary » Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:42 pm

cullman wrote:Another player blacklisted by the NBA for failing to report a bribe attempt was St. John's Tony Jackson.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/02/sport ... .html?_r=0

Roy Emerson is almost a footnote...even with his 12 Singles Grand Slam Titles from 1961-7.


If you are talking about a popularity contest, yea I guess Roy Emerson is a footnote.

I see this thread is becoming the endless nonsense I thought would happen. Some athletes are better remembered, for various reasons, than others. But really who cares? And it is infinite.

However, there are some interesting tales of athletes, such as Ken Hubbs and Lillian Board who were on the beginning of their careers and died or had a tragic accident. Sort of the James Deans of their sport. Or they did one extraordinary thing out of a rather mediocre career, such as MIke Donald who in 1990, twice, led by 2 strokes with 3 holes to go in the US Open and ended up losing the title. And it wasn't long til he was off the Tour altogether.

There are a lot of interesting names that I am sure people could come up with that I haven't heard of. Those are the real footnote people. Not some guy who won 12 GS titles, and no one cares about anymore.

Another way to look at is something like an article I read in The Economist years ago.
The article was about the type of person who would warrant an Obit in a newspaper, such as The Times but not a full biography. It was a fascinating article, with one example being
a Cambridge U. fellow, who if I remember right, bowled only one ball of first class cricket in his career and he got the great Don Bradman out on it.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby bambam » Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:29 pm

Conor Dary wrote:It was a fascinating article, with one example being
a Cambridge U. fellow, who if I remember right, bowled only one ball of first class cricket in his career and he got the great Don Bradman out on it.


Like Archie "Moonlight" Graham
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby bijanc » Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:48 pm

Mack Lee Hill.
Jim "Yazoo" Smith
Les "Sugar" Cain
Roy Foster (1970 Sporting News AL R.O.Y.)
Salvador Sanchez
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby Bruce Kritzler » Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:50 pm

Conor Dary wrote:I was in the building when top gymnast Gary Morava broke his neck on a mini-tramp at Southern Illinois. Unlike Brian Sternberg, in a similar accident, Morava didn't survive.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 19,5817279


And parents still buy trampolines for their backyards?
Last edited by Bruce Kritzler on Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby Conor Dary » Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:15 pm

bambam wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:It was a fascinating article, with one example being
a Cambridge U. fellow, who if I remember right, bowled only one ball of first class cricket in his career and he got the great Don Bradman out on it.


Like Archie "Moonlight" Graham


Or more recently....

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Gre ... aseball%29
Last edited by Conor Dary on Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby bambam » Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:39 pm

Bruce Kritzler wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:I was in the building when top gymnast Gary Morava broke his neck on a mini-tramp at Southern Illinois. Unlike Brian Sternberg, in a similar accident, Morava didn't survive.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 19,5817279


And parents still by trampolines for their backyards?


As an orthopaedic resident I treated three different people who were rendered quadriplegic from trampoline accidents. Absolutely, I think they should be banned. Hell, New Yorks bans large soft drinks, but we allow trampolines??? Yeah, that makes sense.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby 26mi235 » Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:34 pm

DrJay wrote:Basketball-Sam Bowie. Fought injury far more often than healthy.

Alan Webb will eventually be on this list.


Bill Walton -- he hit 21 of 22 (22 of 23?) shots in the NCAA Finals, great college center, but fragile in his still very good NBA career.


He was not a footnote by any means, but think if Koufax had not had problems with his arm (problems that now would have been more easily addressed, and of course, he was throwing 300+ innings a year).
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby cullman » Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:27 pm

Conor Dary wrote:
cullman wrote:Another player blacklisted by the NBA for failing to report a bribe attempt was St. John's Tony Jackson.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/02/sport ... .html?_r=0

Roy Emerson is almost a footnote...even with his 12 Singles Grand Slam Titles from 1961-7.


If you are talking about a popularity contest, yea I guess Roy Emerson is a footnote...

I said almost. :) Emmo was dominant in the mid-60s but is considered a footnote by many historians because most of his GS singles wins were during a period when Gonzales, Laver and Rosewall were barnstorming on the pro circuit.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby cullman » Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:46 pm

Speaking of a "cup of coffee" in the big leagues...anybody hear of Larry Kwong? Kwong played one shift for the New York Rangers in 1948 and may go from footnote to Hall Of Fame. He later became a star playing against Jean Beliveau and Jacques Plante in the Quebec Senior League.

Link: Larry Kwongs Shift For Rangers in 1947-8 Broke A Barrier - NY Times
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby Powell » Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:52 am

bambam wrote:As an orthopaedic resident I treated three different people who were rendered quadriplegic from trampoline accidents. Absolutely, I think they should be banned. Hell, New Yorks bans large soft drinks, but we allow trampolines??? Yeah, that makes sense.


By that logic, aren't you shocked they haven't banned motorcycles (or cars, for that matter)?
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby Pego » Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:04 am

bambam wrote:
Bruce Kritzler wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:I was in the building when top gymnast Gary Morava broke his neck on a mini-tramp at Southern Illinois. Unlike Brian Sternberg, in a similar accident, Morava didn't survive.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 19,5817279


And parents still by trampolines for their backyards?


As an orthopaedic resident I treated three different people who were rendered quadriplegic from trampoline accidents. Absolutely, I think they should be banned. Hell, New Yorks bans large soft drinks, but we allow trampolines??? Yeah, that makes sense.


By the same logic, water-skiing should be banned, too. In the seventies-eighties, I would provide ER services to neuro trauma. Every season, we had several broken necks from water-skiing. What about young kids on four-wheelers? Each one a disaster waiting to happen.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby gh » Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:24 am

cullman wrote:Speaking of a "cup of coffee" in the big leagues...anybody hear of Larry Kwong? ...


My mother knew him! She was also born in Vernon (5 years before him).
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby Conor Dary » Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:55 am

DrJay wrote:Basketball-Sam Bowie. Fought injury far more often than healthy.

Alan Webb will eventually be on this list.


Sam Bowie is the ultimate footnote! And the answer to the ultimate trivia question: Who was picked in the draft just before Michael Jordan. Chicago will be eternally grateful for the TrailBlazers selection.

AW on the other hand is a mixed bag. I would say yes, if he only broke Ryun's HS record and then was gone, sort of like Tim Danielson (a true footnote athlete, who is making a comeback, in the footnote lore: murderers who broke 4 minutes, are there any others?). But he did break the AR in the mile and did compete for a while. And if you were writing a book about American Milers he would have his own chapter. So I think no.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby Conor Dary » Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:04 am

cullman wrote:
I said almost. :) Emmo was dominant in the mid-60s but is considered a footnote by many historians because most of his GS singles wins were during a period when Gonzales, Laver and Rosewall were barnstorming on the pro circuit.


Okay, I sort of buy that. :)

The sixties for Tennis was weird. With the Pros and non-pros. I was just learning to play then, taking lessons from Jay Kramer, a nephew of Jack Kramer.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby Conor Dary » Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:53 am

Another footnote guy is a friend of mine, Tom Sullivan. Ryun broke his high school mile record of 4:03.5. Tom also broke Eliott's WJR 1500 and Ryun broke Tom's which is nice company. Sullivan by the way did go on to a decent running career at Villanova, but he never did break 4 minutes.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby kuha » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:10 am

A curious problem--defining "footnote" athletes. For me, someone like Tommy Fulton is a true footnote athlete, not an Olympic medalist and consistent competitor like John Carlos. Wes Santee doesn't qualify either, as he had at least 4 "normal" years as a competitor--in an era when that often represented a full career.

A quote I came across years ago and have always really liked has some relevance here. These are the words of a 1950s literary critic (F. W. Dupee), describing an interesting but obscure writer: "a wonder, a precious anomaly, at once great and small, easy to forget but delightful to remember."

I like that sentiment a lot.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby TN1965 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:21 am

Henry Rono and Daniel Komen.

Rono was a victim of two Olympic boycotts. Komen was probably as talented as Geb, but did not have the focus or discipline.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby kuha » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:25 am

TN1965 wrote:Henry Rono and Daniel Komen.

Rono was a victim of two Olympic boycotts. Komen was probably as talented as Geb, but did not have the focus or discipline.


Really? If so, I have no clue what the concept of "footnote athletes" actually is. These guys were giants who simply didn't win Olympic medals. That category, in itself, hasn't anything to do with being a "footnote."
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby Conor Dary » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:31 am

TN1965 wrote:Henry Rono and Daniel Komen.

Rono was a victim of two Olympic boycotts. Komen was probably as talented as Geb, but did not have the focus or discipline.


Come on. Give me a break. Rono and Komen? Okay, they didn't run in Olympics. Big deal and so what? Sure they didn't have terrible long careers, especially Komen, but 7:20 is a footnote? Also 12:39 and the WC 5000 champ in 1997. So he didn't have a career like Geb. Who does?

And Rono, with 3 NCAA CC titles, 4 WRs in the magnificent 1978? Plus another 3 years later. A giant of his time. Almost like calling Ulysses S. Grant a footnote in the Civil War.

I am starting to wonder if anyone really knows what a footnote is.

If you want a footnote Kenyan I would go with someone like Simeon Kigen.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby TN1965 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:32 pm

If Vines, Hoad and Campanella qualify as "footnotes" then certainly so do Rono and Komen.

Okay, a "real" footnote. Brien Taylor in baseball. I remember this guy making the local news headline, as I was living in NC when he was drafted.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby Conor Dary » Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:57 pm

TN1965 wrote:If Vines, Hoad and Campanella qualify as "footnotes" then certainly so do Rono and Komen.

Okay, a "real" footnote. Brien Taylor in baseball. I remember this guy making the local news headline, as I was living in NC when he was drafted.


I have no idea who Vines or Hoad are. But yes, Campanella is definitely NOT a footnote.

http://www.amazon.com/Campy-The-Two-Liv ... +capanella
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby TN1965 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:29 pm

Conor Dary wrote: I have no idea who Vines or Hoad are. But yes, Campanella is definitely NOT a footnote.

http://www.amazon.com/Campy-The-Two-Liv ... +capanella


If you have no idea who Ellsworth Vines and Lew Hoad are, then that really proves bambam's point that they are "footnote" athletes. :wink:
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby Conor Dary » Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:35 pm

TN1965 wrote:
Conor Dary wrote: I have no idea who Vines or Hoad are. But yes, Campanella is definitely NOT a footnote.

http://www.amazon.com/Campy-The-Two-Liv ... +capanella


If you have no idea who Ellsworth Vines and Lew Hoad are, then that really proves bambam's point that they are "footnote" athletes. :wink:


Yes, if I the All Powerful Wizard of Sport Knowledge don't know who they are then they are footnotes...

Actually I use to follow baseball a lot, back in the 60's when Wrigley Field would have crowds of 800 and wouldn't open the Upper Deck on weekdays. Not much anymore.

PS. Brien Taylor. I had to look him up. Now there is a real footnote guy. Perfect example of what we want here.....

PPS. I read the whole wiki article. What a knucklehead. Sounds like he is on his way to do a Danielson-type comeback in the footnote category.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby bambam » Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:16 pm

TN1965 wrote:
Conor Dary wrote: I have no idea who Vines or Hoad are. But yes, Campanella is definitely NOT a footnote.

http://www.amazon.com/Campy-The-Two-Liv ... +capanella


If you have no idea who Ellsworth Vines and Lew Hoad are, then that really proves bambam's point that they are "footnote" athletes. :wink:


I think that is my point - they have to be known primarily to the true cognoscenti in their sports, and not to the general public or basic sports fans. I don't think Rono qualifies, given his feats of the 4 world records in 1978(?)
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby Conor Dary » Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:50 pm

bambam wrote:
TN1965 wrote:
Conor Dary wrote: I have no idea who Vines or Hoad are. But yes, Campanella is definitely NOT a footnote.

http://www.amazon.com/Campy-The-Two-Liv ... +capanella


If you have no idea who Ellsworth Vines and Lew Hoad are, then that really proves bambam's point that they are "footnote" athletes. :wink:


I think that is my point - they have to be known primarily to the true cognoscenti in their sports, and not to the general public or basic sports fans. I don't think Rono qualifies, given his feats of the 4 world records in 1978(?)


That is a rather vague definition. So vague that it is meaningless. By that definition Paavo Nurmi is a footnote. I think I would be hard pressed to find many basic sport fans or the general public know who he is anymore. Or Derek Ibbotson or even Herb Elliot for that matter.
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