Footnote Athletes


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Footnote Athletes

Postby bambam » Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:03 pm

Always been fascinated by what David Wallechinsky (in The People's Almanac) called "footnote people in history." Along those lines, have always loved hearing stories about such people in sports - many times the potential greatest evers, but for some reason, never got there - social reasons, injuries, lack of effort, alcohol and drugs, early death. Many of these athletes are not well known - usually only to the cognoscenti in their respective sports. Sports Illustrated had an article a few weeks ago on Brian Coles, a baseball player who deserves to be on such a list - I have never heard of him before.

Here is my list for various sports - can justify all but cannot do so in this post because of size limits:

Baseball – Steve Dalkowski, Brian Coles, Josh Gibson, Satchel Paige
Basketball – Herman “Copter” Knowings, Earl Manigault, Connie Hawkins (pre-NBA)
Football – Duane Thomas, Joe Don Looney, Ken Hall, Bo Jackson
Golf – Eddie Pearce, Tom Weiskopf, Moe Norman
Tennis – Ellsworth Vines, Lew Hoad, Billy Martin
Decathlon – Russ Hodge, Heino Lipp, Bill Watson
Sprinters – Steve Williams, Eulace Peacock
Auto Racing – Stefan Bellof
Figure Skating – Janet Lynn
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby Conor Dary » Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:52 pm

Aren't these lists kind of endless? I can think of oodles of people who should have done better but didn't and probably few have heard of.

And Janet Lynn. I don't remember if she won or not, though at this time I don't think it really matters anymore, since if she didn't I have no idea who did. I do believe she went on to Ice Capades, did well, got married and lived happily ever after.

Except for Mark Spitz, who remembers any Olympians from that era?
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby Bruce Kritzler » Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:10 pm

Conor Dary wrote:Except for Mark Spitz, who remembers any Olympians from that era?


Lasse Viren, Frank Shorter, Dave Wottle are very memorable.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby bambam » Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:13 am

Conor Dary wrote:Aren't these lists kind of endless? I can think of oodles of people who should have done better but didn't and probably few have heard of.

And Janet Lynn. I don't remember if she won or not, though at this time I don't think it really matters anymore, since if she didn't I have no idea who did. I do believe she went on to Ice Capades, did well, got married and lived happily ever after.

Except for Mark Spitz, who remembers any Olympians from that era?


Janet Lynn (ne Nowicki) won a bronze medal at the 1972 Olympics. But most figure skating aficionados still consider her the greatest free skater ever, relative to her time. Were it not for the stupid school figures everybody had to do then, she was unbeatable. She also changed the sport. Her losing made figure skating add the short program so that skaters had a second chance to do a free skate-type program. Unfortunately it was too late for her.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby bambam » Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:14 am

Conor Dary wrote:Aren't these lists kind of endless? I can think of oodles of people who should have done better but didn't and probably few have heard of.


Have we ever complained about endless lists before on this message board? Isn't that what these things are about?
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby gh » Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:46 am

why Russ Hodge?
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby Pego » Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:07 am

bambam wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:Aren't these lists kind of endless? I can think of oodles of people who should have done better but didn't and probably few have heard of.

And Janet Lynn. I don't remember if she won or not, though at this time I don't think it really matters anymore, since if she didn't I have no idea who did. I do believe she went on to Ice Capades, did well, got married and lived happily ever after.

Except for Mark Spitz, who remembers any Olympians from that era?


Janet Lynn (ne Nowicki) won a bronze medal at the 1972 Olympics. But most figure skating aficionados still consider her the greatest free skater ever, relative to her time. Were it not for the stupid school figures everybody had to do then, she was unbeatable. She also changed the sport. Her losing made figure skating add the short program so that skaters had a second chance to do a free skate-type program. Unfortunately it was too late for her.


Trixi Schuba that won gold was a master of compulsory figures, but her free skate was without doubt the most pitiful of any Olympic champion. She managed all double jumps that were low, barely above ice. Her spins were borderline OK. I think it was Trixi that forced the skating federation to reconsider the scoring (school was worth 2/3 of a total score).
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby jhc68 » Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:53 am

And Lew Hoad?
Hoad could have been better known but played through the Gonzales / Rosewall / Laver era... still Hoad was an all-time tennis great.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby bambam » Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:39 am

Pego wrote:Trixi Schuba that won gold was a master of compulsory figures, but her free skate was without doubt the most pitiful of any Olympic champion. She managed all double jumps that were low, barely above ice. Her spins were borderline OK. I think it was Trixi that forced the skating federation to reconsider the scoring (school was worth 2/3 of a total score).


It was a combination of Schuba's free skating being so poor relative to Lynn's and Lynn's free skating brilliance that led the ISU to change the format - adding a short program, and further devaluing school figures.

Also % were 60/40 for school/free skate thru 1964. That changed in 1968 to 50/50 scoring for school and free skating. In 1976 it changed to 30% for school figures, 20% for short program, and 50% for free skate.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby bambam » Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:41 am

gh wrote:why Russ Hodge?

Decathlon guys based an Zarnowski's book and Hodge based on his potential as 60+ shot put and good speed. I know, I know - he was much bigger when he put the shot 60+ and wasn't able to sprint at his top speed at that point. But his event scores were much higher than Toomey's in that era but he never seemed able to put it all together,
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby bambam » Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:44 am

jhc68 wrote:And Lew Hoad?
Hoad could have been better known but played through the Gonzales / Rosewall / Laver era... still Hoad was an all-time tennis great.


Hoad almost won the Grand Slam in 1956, winning Australia, France, Wimbledon, and losing US final to Rosewall, his best friend. He turned pro after the next season, but back injuries hampered his career a great deal. No less than Pancho Gonzales said Hoad was the greatest player he had ever seen, at his best.

On Ellsworth Vines, he was great in the 1930s, after Don Budge, but turned pro early and then turned to pro golf (he played in the Masters a couple times). Jack Kramer, who ran the pro tours in the 50s-60s said Vines at his best was the greatest player he had ever seen.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby Pego » Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:32 am

bambam wrote:
Pego wrote:Trixi Schuba that won gold was a master of compulsory figures, but her free skate was without doubt the most pitiful of any Olympic champion. She managed all double jumps that were low, barely above ice. Her spins were borderline OK. I think it was Trixi that forced the skating federation to reconsider the scoring (school was worth 2/3 of a total score).


It was a combination of Schuba's free skating being so poor relative to Lynn's and Lynn's free skating brilliance that led the ISU to change the format - adding a short program, and further devaluing school figures.

Also % were 60/40 for school/free skate thru 1964. That changed in 1968 to 50/50 scoring for school and free skating. In 1976 it changed to 30% for school figures, 20% for short program, and 50% for free skate.


Obviously, my memory is beginning to fail me. Who am I kidding with "beginning"? :(
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby TN1965 » Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:37 am

I think there is a difference between those who were deterred by "social reasons" and everyone else. The ones who were deterred by racial segregation, pro-am split, Olympic boycott, etc. did reach their potential (relatively speaking, that is. No one reached the full potential). They were simply not able to show their greatness in the most glorious venue. As for the others, we can only speculate on how good they could have become.

The case of Janet Lynn is interesting because we know how good she was. It was just the stupid rule (60% of total points in compulsory) that prevented her from the titles. So I think that also belongs to "social reasons."

In tennis, Althea Gibson could have achieved far more if not for the segregation. Mo Connolly's career was cut short because of a freak accident. Kramer, Pancho and Rosewall are all underrated because of the pro-am split.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby no one » Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:02 am

I would almost pay to see a NYC playground game when Earl Manigault was playing. And I rarely pay to see anything
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby bambam » Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:25 am

no one wrote:I would almost pay to see a NYC playground game when Earl Manigault was playing. And I rarely pay to see anything


Yeah, but the problem I've heard from guys who cover the NBA was that the Goat was a 6-5 center basically, so really would have had no chance in the NBA against Russell, Chamberlain, Thurmond, Reed, in that era, despite being a playground legend.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby KDFINE » Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:07 pm

Not only did Hoad almost win the Grand Slam, but after he turned pro he toured with Gonzales only to be well beaten. The next year though, he got the better of Gonzales in the head to head matches. He did lose a few more to Anderson and Cooper though. (For those of you who only know from Anderson Cooper I'm writing about Aussies Mal Anderson and Ashley Cooper.

In the category of footnote athletes prominent were the man U players killed in the Munich airplane crash of 1958. I think the most promising was named Duncan MacDonald who was only 22. I'll double check his name when I have the chance (called to dinner).
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby Conor Dary » Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:45 pm

It was Duncan Edwards who died in that Munich crash. Yes, he had a very promising career snuffed out at 21. About the same age and talent, perhaps more so, as Bobby Charlton.

Since you got me going here. One is Ken Hubbs, 1962 Rookie of the Year for the Cubs, who died in an accident the following spring. Amazing thing about those 1962 Cubs is the team had four future Hall of Famers in the starting lineup, Santo, Banks, Williams and Lou Brock plus Hubbs.

Talk of not reaching their potential... :cry:

PS. Duncan MacDonald was the American 5000 meter runner. I think he reached his potential. He did break the US 5000 record. (Pre's if memory is right.)
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby Conor Dary » Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:56 pm

The Munich Air Crash and Janet Lynn reminded me that the US figure skating team was wiped out in a plane crash about 50 years ago.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby KDFINE » Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:08 pm

Duncan Edwards it was. I think he survived the crash for about two weeks before dying of his injuries.
Getting back to Lew Hoad, I think Pancho Gonzales said something to the effect that if earth needed a representative in an intergalactic match he'd pick Hoad. Hoad was the best amateur in '57 and the best pro for a short time. No mere footnote! I'm writing this as a great fan of Rosewall. Its nice to be able to have been able to root for someone for what seemed like eons.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby cullman » Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:33 pm

Conor Dary wrote:The Munich Air Crash and Janet Lynn reminded me that the US figure skating team was wiped out in a plane crash about 50 years ago.

Laurence Owens would have been a contender for the 1964 Olympic title if not for the crash. Canadian Donald Jackson was scheduled to be on that flight but was ill. His coach Pierre Brunet decided that they should take a later flight...and then there is the story of future pairs champ and MP Otto Jelinek:

http://www.boston.com/sports/packages/u ... f_fate.htm

"Grounded by his coach...Left to his own devices, Otto Jelinek would ardently pursue female companionship as well as libation, for by his own description, he was ''a normal thirsty, horny 20-year-old."

"No trip, Otto thought dolefully as the doors to 548 closed and the plane taxied along Runway 22. (coach)Hyland hadn't shown; Jelinek would have to wait for him. He was barred from a trip on his own like some kid who hadn't cleaned his room. Needless to say, ''I was furious,'' Jelinek said. And his mood didn't improve when Hyland finally arrived and Otto and 18-year-old Maria took a later KLM flight with him to Prague."

edit: Donald Jackson woulda and coulda been an Olympic gold medalist and multiple World Champion.
Last edited by cullman on Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby cullman » Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:51 pm

also...
Baseball: Karl Spooner
Basketball: Raymond Lewis, Ronnie Fields, Pee Wee Kirkland
Golf: Ed White
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby bijanc » Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:00 pm

Baseball: Herb Score, Tony Conigliaro, Ray Fosse, Wayne Simpson, Lyman Bostock
Pro Football: Greg Cook, David Overstreet, Ernie Davis, Joe Delaney, Darryl Stingley
Basketball: Sherm White, Ed Warner, Roger Brown, Lenny Bias
T & F: Skeets Nehemiah, Steve Williams, Mary Decker, Ana Fidelia Quirot
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby Bruce Kritzler » Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:30 pm

bambam wrote:Yeah, but the problem I've heard from guys who cover the NBA was that the Goat was a 6-5 center basically, so really would have had no chance in the NBA against Russell, Chamberlain, Thurmond, Reed, in that era, despite being a playground legend.


Charles Barkley did fine as a 6-4 forward.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby no one » Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:14 pm

the goat did fine against Alcindor and Chamberlain. At the end of his career, when asked who was the best player he ever played against Jabbar smiled and replied "the goat" Pretty good endorsement. When the NBA's best wanted to play against the best - they went to Ruckers in summertime. They named the park after him. Reportedly could touch top of backboard. Too bad he found mary jane and horse. He was 6-1/6-2 Trouble with the law and a lack of discipline interrupted what would have prob been a HoF career The NBA all star and mvp players concurred.

died from heart failure in 1998
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby Per Andersen » Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:28 pm

High Jump - Vladimir Yashchenko

Tennis - Goran Ivanicevic

1500-5000 - Sydney Wooderson
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby bambam » Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:03 am

KDFINE wrote:Duncan Edwards it was. I think he survived the crash for about two weeks before dying of his injuries.
Getting back to Lew Hoad, I think Pancho Gonzales said something to the effect that if earth needed a representative in an intergalactic match he'd pick Hoad. Hoad was the best amateur in '57 and the best pro for a short time. No mere footnote! I'm writing this as a great fan of Rosewall. Its nice to be able to have been able to root for someone for what seemed like eons.


That's exactly what Gonzales said about Hoad.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby bambam » Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:04 am

cullman wrote:Donald Jackson woulda and coulda been an Olympic gold medalist and multiple World Champion.


Jackson known for one of the great free skate performances ever to win the 1962 Worlds.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby bambam » Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:05 am

no one wrote:the goat did fine against Alcindor and Chamberlain. At the end of his career, when asked who was the best player he ever played against Jabbar smiled and replied "the goat" Pretty good endorsement.


The quote I had heard was that Alcindor (early days) said the best he had ever played against was Connie Hawkins (pre-NBA), from his Rucker days, when he was banned because of potential point-shaving.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby bambam » Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:07 am

cullman wrote:also...
Baseball: Karl Spooner
Basketball: Raymond Lewis, Ronnie Fields, Pee Wee Kirkland
Golf: Ed White


You can really learn something on this board - I had never heard of Ed White and went and looked him up. I think you're correct that he makes this list. Thanx for teaching me.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby bambam » Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:10 am

bijanc wrote:Baseball: Herb Score, Tony Conigliaro, Ray Fosse, Wayne Simpson, Lyman Bostock
Pro Football: Greg Cook, David Overstreet, Ernie Davis, Joe Delaney, Darryl Stingley
Basketball: Sherm White, Ed Warner, Roger Brown, Lenny Bias
T & F: Skeets Nehemiah, Steve Williams, Mary Decker, Ana Fidelia Quirot


Some great choices above - Score, Conig, Ernie Davis (absolutely), Bias, and Nehemiah - I had Steve Williams. Not so sure about Darryl Stingley - good but maybe not great, although obviously a tragic end.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby DrJay » Sat Apr 27, 2013 3:01 am

Basketball-Sam Bowie. Fought injury far more often than healthy.

Alan Webb will eventually be on this list.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby DrJay » Sat Apr 27, 2013 3:13 am

Baseball-Mark "The Bird" Fidrych. I had not realized what a short career he had--only one meaningful season--till I heard a recent NPR story about him. From wiki:

In one of Bill James' baseball books, he quoted the Yankees' Graig Nettles as telling about an at-bat against Fidrych, who, as usual, was talking to the ball before pitching to Nettles. Immediately Graig jumped out of the batter's box and started talking to his bat. He reportedly said, "Never mind what he says to the ball. You just hit it over the outfield fence!" Nettles struck out. "Damn," he said. "Japanese bat. Doesn't understand a word of English."
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby gh » Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:57 am

bambam wrote:
cullman wrote:Donald Jackson woulda and coulda been an Olympic gold medalist and multiple World Champion.


Jackson known for one of the great free skate performances ever to win the 1962 Worlds.


Didn't he get a 6.0 even after falling down? Cuz he did the first triple something or other perhaps?
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby Pego » Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:24 am

gh wrote:
bambam wrote:
cullman wrote:Donald Jackson woulda and coulda been an Olympic gold medalist and multiple World Champion.


Jackson known for one of the great free skate performances ever to win the 1962 Worlds.


Didn't he get a 6.0 even after falling down? Cuz he did the first triple something or other perhaps?


Triple Lutz at the Prague Worlds in 1962. I saw it on TV live :D .
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby gh » Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:46 am

I remember Dick Button nearly spoiling his tux in doing the Wide World Of Sports commentary.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby Conor Dary » Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:50 am

I was in the building when top gymnast Gary Morava broke his neck on a mini-tramp at Southern Illinois. Unlike Brian Sternberg, in a similar accident, Morava didn't survive.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 19,5817279
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby odelltrclan » Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:19 am

Conor Dary wrote:I was in the building when top gymnast Gary Morava broke his neck on a mini-tramp at Southern Illinois. Unlike Brian Sternberg, in a similar accident, Morava didn't survive.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 19,5817279


Find it interesting the piece below that, where it says Pete Rose, NL MVP, was signed for $155,000, the highest in club history. Talk about amazing changes from then to now . .
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby Conor Dary » Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:26 am

I hadn't read much on that page. I also noticed Oregon State finally got an 'all-weather' track.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby bijanc » Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:31 am

MLB: Ken Hubbs, Roy Campanella

Not sure how effective Duke guards Bobby Hurley and Jason Williams would have been in the NBA- neither was a Janet Lynn or Steve Williams.

Cincy's Royals would have won some NBA crowns, had Mo Stokes teamed w/ all-pros Oscar Robertson, Jack Twyman and Jerry Lucas. Stokes was confined to a mobile chair a couple years before O's rookie campaign.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby no one » Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:32 am

that Alcindor/Jabbar - could never make up his mind - needless to say there were big time athletes @ Ruckers - spanning several decades no?
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