Juantorena 200m PB ?


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Juantorena 200m PB ?

Postby norunner » Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:18 am

I was discussing the german 400m misery with a friend of mine and my opinion is, that they are simply too slow over 200m to get anywhere over 400. I think to get below 45s you have to be able to run 200m below 21 seconds (i am certain there is the occasional example where that is not true). However i then considered Alberto Juantorena and his 44.26 from 76 and for such a time he should be able to go well below 21, maybe closer to 20.5, but i couldn't find a 200m PB for El Caballo, does anyone have any info?
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Re: Juantorena 200m PB ?

Postby user4 » Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:41 am

yeah, great point, the AJ never seemed to get rolling until about 100m but once he had a head of steam he was gobbling up turf at an effortless pace.

Regarding the germans, I dont see the country as terribly interested in track. They have had two top tier sprinters in the last 70 years that were worth mentioning; Hary and Ray, that is it. I dont think they have produced a 100m man in the last 30 years that could match what Hary did 50 years ago... on dirt. Likewise, is it really for lack of talent that they languish at 400m, certainly not to the dismal level that they have sunk. There are rare anomalous performers, they won a WC with the late starter Shultz and there are a few other standouts over the last few decades, but like the 100/200, things just continue to inch backwards with each year.
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Re: Juantorena 200m PB ?

Postby norunner » Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:03 am

user4 wrote:yeah, great point, the horse never seemed to get rolling until about 60m but once he had a head of steam he was gobbling up turf at an effortless pace.

Regarding the germans, I dont see the country as terribly interested in track. They have had two top tier sprinters in the last 70 years that were worth mentioning; Hary and Ray, that is it. I dont think they have produced a 100m man in the last 30 years that could match what Hary did 50 years ago... on dirt. Likewise, is it really for lack of talent that they languish at 400m, certainly not to the dismal level that they have sunk. There are rare anomalous performers, they won a WC with the late starter Shultz and there are a few other standouts over the last few decades, but like the 100/200, things just continue to inch backwards with each year.
Well, the topic wasn't german sprinting history, but since you started it, there are a few more, Fütterer, Germar, both in the 50s and in the 80s there was Christian Haas, 5th at the WCs in 83 and Emmelmann. Over 400m however Germany has a huge history, going back to Rudolf Harbig in 39. Actually since 1939 with the exception of Viktor Markov for three years, only German 400m runners held the european record. Carl Kaufmann, Karl Honz, Martin Jellinghaus, Harald Schmid, Hartmut Weber, Erwin Skamrahl, Thomas Schönlebe and Ingo Schultz were all world class. Today we are lucky if one guy per year breaks 46 seconds.
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Re: Juantorena 200m PB ?

Postby user4 » Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:44 pm

Back to Juantorena, I think his Montreal 400m performance was the greatest 400m effort up until that time and for some time later. Im compelled to say that it might have even dwarfed Lee Evans sub44 A. Considering that he was doubling at 400/800 simply boggles the mind. It is frightening to think what he could have done had he just specialized at 400m. I wonder sometimes what he might have done at 400H. In terms of raw 400m talent, does he have an historical peer? Maybe Tommie Smith or Otis Davis.
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Re: Juantorena 200m PB ?

Postby gh » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:18 pm

Juanto was awesome to be sure, but best 400 talent ever? I don't think remotely so. Didn't have the basic speed, I don't think.

Best unrealized talents, perhaps, were Smith and Henry Carr.

(I don't think Juanto ever ran a 200 that anybody ever knew about.. i.e., once he became a world-class runner)
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Re: Juantorena 200m PB ?

Postby Brian » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:37 pm

gh wrote:Juanto was awesome to be sure, but best 400 talent ever? I don't think remotely so. Didn't have the basic speed, I don't think.

Best unrealized talents, perhaps, were Smith and Henry Carr.

(I don't think Juanto ever ran a 200 that anybody ever knew about.. i.e., once he became a world-class runner)


Admittedly faulty memory sticks about reading of a 4x200m. sharpening workout done in 22-23 each, no idea how much recovery. If he ever raced or did an all-out single 200m., only his hairdresser knows for sure the result.

One big thing about Juanto was his @ 9-foot strides. That eats up a lot of ground, once rolling--as mentioned above, probably after the first 100m. Too bad no one could have split-timed him in a 300m. with a rolling start.
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Re: Juantorena 200m PB ?

Postby norunner » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:07 pm

gh wrote:Juanto was awesome to be sure, but best 400 talent ever? I don't think remotely so. Didn't have the basic speed, I don't think.

Best unrealized talents, perhaps, were Smith and Henry Carr.
What about Obea Moore? Never seen him, but running 45.1 at age 16 and then fading into obscurity does sound like a lot of unrealized talent.
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Re: Juantorena 200m PB ?

Postby user4 » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:28 pm

Brian wrote:
gh wrote:Juanto was awesome to be sure, but best 400 talent ever? I don't think remotely so. Didn't have the basic speed, I don't think.

Best unrealized talents, perhaps, were Smith and Henry Carr.

...
One big thing about Juanto was his @ 9-foot strides. That eats up a lot of ground, once rolling--as mentioned above, probably after the first 100m. Too bad no one could have split-timed him in a 300m. with a rolling start.
.


Great point and that brings up another minor factor that causes me to rank Juantorena's '76 400m as one of the greatest 400s in OG history, ... the big tall roller did it from lane 2. While for most that would be a minor disadvantage relative to lane 4 or 5 for the burly 6'3" Cuban it had to trim a few tenths off of what he was capable of that day. As it was the 185lber ran a 44.26 from lane 2 and he did that a mere 4/5 days after he had run a 1.43 800m, a race in which he took command for the entire closing 400m, delivering a WR. He ran two WR in one week with all of the attendant OG rounds wrapped around his neck. Mind boggling display of raw talent. With all things considered, an apples for apples comparison has to put that performance as one of the greatest. No wonder they called him the horse! :)
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Re: Juantorena 200m PB ?

Postby gh » Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:28 pm

norunner wrote:
gh wrote:Juanto was awesome to be sure, but best 400 talent ever? I don't think remotely so. Didn't have the basic speed, I don't think.

Best unrealized talents, perhaps, were Smith and Henry Carr.
What about Obea Moore? Never seen him, but running 45.1 at age 16 and then fading into obscurity does sound like a lot of unrealized talent.


I place zero stock (no, make that less than zero) in using age-group performances as any kind of predictor of real talent. More often than no they're merely a reflection of somebody who as an outlier in the early-maturity curve and/or was trained into the ground at an early age. After they're at least 18, then talk to me.

(Usain Bolt obviously defies this rule, as he has so many others)
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Re: Juantorena 200m PB ?

Postby Brian » Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:02 pm

[quote="user4] Great point and that brings up another minor factor that causes me to rank Juantorena's '76 400m as one of the greatest 400s in OG history, ... the big tall roller did it from lane 2. While for most that would be a minor disadvantage relative to lane 4 or 5 for the burly 6'3" Cuban it had to trim a few tenths off of what he was capable of that day. As it was the 185lber ran a 44.26 from lane 2 and he did that a mere 4/5 days after he had run a 1.43 800m, a race in which he took command for the entire closing 400m, delivering a WR. He ran two WR in one week with all of the attendant OG rounds wrapped around his neck. Mind boggling display of raw talent. With all things considered, an apples for apples comparison has to put that performance as one of the greatest. No wonder they called him the horse! :)[/quote]

Actually, I would consider that 400m. race to be one of the best head-to-head competitions, period. Fred Newhouse ran only .2 slower, a time fast enough to win nearly every other Oly final up to then and for many times afterwards.

Newhouse, T&FNuts will remember, blew up horribly in the '72 Trials after going out in 20.-something. Fast Freddy regrouped, made the team in '76, and (if memory serves; I'll have to check the Greenspan VHS tape I have at home) led Juanto until the final straightaway.

[While acknowledging the aforementioned tighter curve in lane #2, I can't help but wonder if it would have made a difference for Newhouse to have been inside Juantorena, able to see him. Big Fred had to run it blind, timing his effort perfectly and hope he maintained in the homestretch; he almost pulled it off.]


A big reason Juanto won that day was his channeled hatred of anything (US) American. This was Cold War politics days, my friends, the Bay of Pigs invasion still fresh in the minds of patriotic Cubans. Had the uniform next to him been anything but red, white, and blue, would Juanto have had the extra something to pull ahead in the final meters?

We'll never know. Instead, we had a classic competition for the ages.
.
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Re: Juantorena 200m PB ?

Postby KDFINE » Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:53 am

And what of the "great ifs" that abound on this board is what if John Smith hadn't have turned pro?
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Re: Juantorena 200m PB ?

Postby user4 » Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:32 am

KDFINE wrote:And what of the "great ifs" that abound on this board is what if John Smith hadn't have turned pro?


John Smith's last #1 ranking came in 1971, ... 5 years before Montreal.
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Re: Juantorena 200m PB ?

Postby gh » Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:37 am

Brian wrote:...
A big reason Juanto won that day was his channeled hatred of anything (US) American. This was Cold War politics days, my friends, the Bay of Pigs invasion still fresh in the minds of patriotic Cubans. Had the uniform next to him been anything but red, white, and blue, would Juanto have had the extra something to pull ahead in the final meters?

We'll never know. Instead, we had a classic competition for the ages.
.


I think "hatred" far too strong a word. But I get into that topic a bit in this interview with him from '77

http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/archiv ... torena.pdf
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Re: Juantorena 200m PB ?

Postby KDFINE » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:32 am

T&Fn reported that John Smith ran a 44.8 as a pro (that's 440 yards not 400 meters) in 1975. He only turned 26 in August, 1976. If the ITA hadn't have come along he would have been a factor, probably wanting to make up for his injury in 1972. As for hanging around, remember that Vince Matthews did virtually nothing from the Mexico Olympics until his comeback in 1972. John Smith would have been a factor in '76.
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Re: Juantorena 200m PB ?

Postby Brian » Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:07 pm

gh wrote:
Brian wrote:...
A big reason Juanto won that day was his channeled hatred of anything (US) American. This was Cold War politics days, my friends, the Bay of Pigs invasion still fresh in the minds of patriotic Cubans. Had the uniform next to him been anything but red, white, and blue, would Juanto have had the extra something to pull ahead in the final meters?

We'll never know. Instead, we had a classic competition for the ages.
.


I think "hatred" far too strong a word. But I get into that topic a bit in this interview with him from '77

http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/archiv ... torena.pdf


I never meant Juanto hated Americans as human beings, just the culture and (probably) the political government. In that, he certainly wasn't alone among among his countrymen (and as an sporting ambassador after Montreal, he almost certainly tuned whatever was there down accordingly).

[Your words, gh]
"I don't think he likes journalists, and he probably isn't a fan of Americans."

I know for a fact most Cubans of that time hated at least the negative influence of the US on their country. When you consider that over the course of two decades we politically tried to openly invade them, blockaded their island, participated and/or encouraged plots to assassinate their leader, and culturally had at one time turned their capital city into a brothel for vacationing rich men (corrupting women a very bad thing in Latin culture), I don't blame them.

But you're right that hate is perhaps too strong a word to use as far as one-to-one with the people of America, though again, I never meant it that way.
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Re: Juantorena 200m PB ?

Postby Jackaloupe » Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:15 pm

Nice BackTrack clarification, Brian. Still, Juanto was much more doctrinaire than the average Cuban athlete, moving on to government appointments, never waivering in his support for Fidelismo. Nevertheless, his domination of the Montreal 800, tearing it open by 600m, had nothing to do with any Red/White/Blue sightings: I was there and don't recall him ever looking up during that relentless run--most inspiring event of the entire '76 Olympics.

On a lighter note, Dwight Stones sported a Mickey Mouse T-shirt--a ref. to some obscure complaint over ?? IOC, US Team?
Bruce Jenner's T-shirt read: Feet Don't Fail Me Now!

Then there was the memorable Olympic Streaker: Weaving his way thru "100 Young Girrls" (acc. to the French-speaking announcer) forming the Olympic Rings at the Closing Ceremony, finally wrapped up (literally) by Les Gendarmes--who doubtless recall the whole charade even better than I;~)
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Re: Juantorena 200m PB ?

Postby lonewolf » Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:05 pm

Brian wrote:q....... at one time turned their capital city into a brothel for vacationing rich men....
.


I thought the US had already been accused of every vile thing under the sun.. I was wrong but surely this must complete the list. :?
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Re: Juantorena 200m PB ?

Postby Jackaloupe » Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:19 pm

(corrupting women a very bad thing in Latin culture),

Right, "rich men" from the US created all the Casas de Cita aka Casas de Putas (now PC Sex Workers) thruout Latin America, where wives turn a blind eye as El Gordo (a common pet name in LA) heads out for a night with his "cuates" (buddies in Mexico).

As usual, Lone Wolf is right on the mark, so to speak (to a top LJ Official, eh?)
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Re: Juantorena 200m PB ?

Postby user4 » Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:40 am

Brian wrote:
I know for a fact most Cubans of that time hated at least the negative influence of the US on their country. When you consider that over the course of two decades we politically tried to openly invade them, blockaded their island, participated and/or encouraged plots to assassinate their leader, and culturally had at one time turned their capital city into a brothel for vacationing rich men (corrupting women a very bad thing in Latin culture), I don't blame them.

But you're right that hate is perhaps too strong a word to use as far as one-to-one with the people of America, though again, I never meant it that way.
.


You obviously know an awful lot about history so please help us out ...


1) Regarding the Cubans that hated america are you referring to the Cubans that were not stripped of ownership of their land and homes by Castro ? .... some of the ones that I have known were forced to leave their tiny family farms.

2) Which invasion are you referring to ? Is it the one led by Castro from 1956-59 from central america to Cuba ? or is it the one by the then landless exiled Cubans supported by the US during the first year of the Kennedy admin. ?

3) Regarding the blockade, are you referring to the blockade to stop the importation of nuclear missiles and other military materials from the Soviet union to be pointed at the US in 1962 ? Or are you referring to the softer embargo that the US placed on the Batista regime in the late 50s in order to move that regime in a less repressive direction ?

4) Do you think the Castro regime has been more or less of a totalitarian regime than the Batista regime ? How do you weigh the confiscation of land and the elimination of property rights by the Castro regime in your calculation of "totalitarian" ? How important is freedom of speech or freedom of religion in Castro's Cuba ? Do you consider any of those rights, property, speech, religion, of any value in your own life ?

5) Did the US government turn their capital city into a brothel or did their own oligarchs do that ?. Can you tell us what US legislation sought to make Havana a brothel ? Did your senator and congressman vote to make Havana a brothel ? Is it possible that organized crime figures and profiteers of every stripe made Havana a hell hole just as they strive to profit making every city in the world hell holes ?
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Re: Juantorena 200m PB ?

Postby bambam » Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:49 am

In the 1940s my Mom visited Cuba and always talked about how much she loved Havana. Always sorta hoped to go there in her memory. May do a medical mission there - we're still allowed to do that.
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Re: Juantorena 200m PB ?

Postby Brian » Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:37 pm

Jackaloupe wrote: his domination of the Montreal 800, tearing it open by 600m, had nothing to do with any Red/White/Blue sightings: I was there and don't recall him ever looking up during that relentless run--most inspiring event of the entire '76 Olympics.


He may not have looked up during he race itself, but he certainly knew who his true competition was that day. Newhouse had been running great all season. Ditto for Maxie Parks and Herman Frazier. And Newhouse was on his outside; you can see people outside/ahead on the stagger without turning your head.

I envy you being there that day. [Also for Viren's 5,000m.]
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Re: Juantorena 200m PB ?

Postby rhymans » Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:52 am

In answer to the question posed in the first post - Juantorena never ran a 200m - his biography lists all his races - starting at 400m
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Re: Juantorena 200m PB ?

Postby user4 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:52 am

rhymans wrote:In answer to the question posed in the first post - Juantorena never ran a 200m - his biography lists all his races - starting at 400m


To have dominated the most challenging straddle in track, that of the 400-800 for a few years is just mind boggling. It makes the 200m as irrelevant for his portfolio as the 110 hurdles .
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Re: Juantorena 200m PB ?

Postby Jackaloupe » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:42 am

Brian, I was referring to the 800, which I noted he took over by 600, never looking back (or around).
Your description of "that day" was clearly of the 400 ("Newhouse....lanes"). That kind of getting into the head of a runner reminds me of Carol Lewis's penchant for, "She's saying....")
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Re: Juantorena 200m PB ?

Postby Brian » Sat May 04, 2013 10:34 pm

Jackaloupe wrote:Brian, I was referring to the 800, which I noted he took over by 600, never looking back (or around).
Your description of "that day" was clearly of the 400 ("Newhouse....lanes"). That kind of getting into the head of a runner reminds me of Carol Lewis's penchant for, "She's saying....")


Didn't catch your referencing the 800m. Pretty much the entire thread was discussing Juanto's 400 meters and base speed for 200m. so I missed your jump to the longer race. Apologies.

As far as getting into anybody's head, come on. You seriously don't think racing your number one competitors who also happen to be from a country completely the opposite of yours politically and economically and with whom your country has had bitter conflicts during the height of the Cold War wouldn't be extra incentive to win...? To offer that he was highly motivated by the tough American competition isn't grasping at straws. Be real.
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Re: Juantorena 200m PB ?

Postby user4 » Sun May 05, 2013 1:08 pm

For comparison, if Rudisha had never ran a 400m and he went on to break the 1500m WR would anyone question his greatness at 800m ? Lets not forget what a 44.26 (in Montreal, not at altitude) meant in 1976.
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Re: Juantorena 200m PB ?

Postby Jackaloupe » Mon May 06, 2013 9:28 pm

Pretty much the entire thread was discussing Juanto's 400 meters and base speed for 200m

Yeah, until you injected Juanto's politics into the discussion, suggesting his "seeing" the US colors provided major motivation. That's why I pointed out his 800, that he broke open by 600, needing no more motivation than the Olympic setting, the Montreal crowd and maybe a sense of runners in pursuit.

As for "get real", is suggesting that the worldclass runners themselves--as opposed to the national allegiance of a few of them--were motivation enough unreal?
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Re: Juantorena 200m PB ?

Postby Brian » Thu May 09, 2013 4:22 pm

Jackaloupe wrote: Yeah, until you injected Juanto's politics into the discussion, suggesting his "seeing" the US colors provided major motivation. That's why I pointed out his 800, that he broke open by 600, needing no more motivation than the Olympic setting, the Montreal crowd and maybe a sense of runners in pursuit.

As for "get real", is suggesting that the worldclass runners themselves--as opposed to the national allegiance of a few of them--were motivation enough unreal?


Actually, mention had been previously made about Juantorena winning (the 400) from a tighter curved inside lane, to which I added that while indeed tighter, the inside position allowed Juanto to see his top competition all the way. That the competition was Newhouse--an American--almost certainly provided extra motivation, *if needed*...an observation based on the prevailing political climate between the US and Cuba.

Sure, I can acknowledge that it's possible for any athlete to win on basic first-to-the-finish-line motivation alone. But, for reasons listed above, I seriously doubt that was all there was in this case.

The question is, why are YOU so adamant that beating the Americans *wasn't* at least a part of Juantorena's racing mindset? Because of some kind of blind idealism athletes in sport have a higher purpose?

If so, get real.
.
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Re: Juantorena 200m PB ?

Postby Jackaloupe » Thu May 09, 2013 11:22 pm

Brian sez, for me: "some kind of blind idealism athletes in sport have a higher purpose" Well, that's sure putting a mouthful of never-even-implied thought into my post--just like you'd done w/ Juanto's injecting his well known politics into a race.

Ya know, this is getting downright tiresome, not only parsing a passel of motivations, but conflating the laned 400 w/ the 800 (the only race I mentioned, to counteract the vision thing). All along, you've conflated Newhouse being American with his personal prowess as chief rival.

Dunno if that little "as needed", which I never picked up on, somehow negates the clear thrust of your extended riff on historical Yanqui-hate, clearly implying it just had to be the major motivator in play. As there's no way to get into an athlete's head like that (a la Carol Lewis, as I said), I merely suggested that didn't wash, citing the 800m as a clear case where the US was literally nowhere in sight (your political metaphor, seeing the Felix Sanchez's Granny Pic after the Oly 400 H; maybe Juanto was even visualizing Gramma (Fidel's invasion boat).

So, give it a rest, OK?
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Re: Juantorena 200m PB ?

Postby Brian » Fri May 10, 2013 7:36 pm

Jackaloupe wrote: Ya know, this is getting downright tiresome, not only parsing a passel of motivations, but conflating the laned 400 w/ the 800 (the only race I mentioned, to counteract the vision thing). All along, you've conflated Newhouse being American with his personal prowess as chief rival.


Newhouse was Juantorena's chief rival in the Montreal 400 meters race. And he was American. Period. Those two things are perfectly capable of providing a non-American competitor who "not a fan of Americans" [--quoting gh, who spoke directly with that particular competitor] with the extra impetus to succeed in the hometretch. Period.

You're entitled to your opinion. But so am I. A shame you can't see it that way.

This is played out and not worth a "vacation" for either of us.

Truce?
.
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Re: Juantorena 200m PB ?

Postby Jackaloupe » Fri May 10, 2013 8:56 pm

You're entitled to your opinion. But so am I. A shame you can't see it that way. [Yet another injection of mind-reading.]

Once the discussin' began it wasn't (for me) a matter of respecting your valid opinion--which was hard to suss out, as you wavered between Newhouse's nationality and his prowess as chief rival; than back-tracked from "major reason" to "if needed", in quotes but never stated earlier.
It was inconsistent logic and citing of evidence to back it, the venturesome speculation, and moreover the vehement personalization ("get real") when I'd simply presented some counter arguments--while admittedly ridiculing your blaming the US for the P___ culture in Latin America.

If "truce" means no more mischaracterization of another's statements, incl. reading in stuff that was never there, you're on. And even mild personal admonitions don't go over very well hereabouts--really.
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Re: Juantorena 200m PB ?

Postby user4 » Sat May 11, 2013 7:48 am

Im going to offer a rough guess and say that Juantorena during his best 400m form (which also was his bet 800m form, ... frightening yes ) was worth about a 20.6s over 200m. That is to say, had he been entered in only the 200m at Montreal ( having trained for the 400m/800m double) ... 20.6. That is speculation based only on the flimsy evidence of watching him run the rounds of the 400m at Montreal.
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Re: Juantorena 200m PB ?

Postby Brian » Fri May 31, 2013 9:17 pm

From the front page. Just thought it was interesting how old feuds seem to never die.

http://www.plenglish.com/index.php?opti ... 1&Itemid=1
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