400m hurdles: first under 49.00 and 48.00?


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400m hurdles: first under 49.00 and 48.00?

Postby lovetorun » Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:49 pm

Enjoyed reading the John Aki Bua thread and started wondering about time barriers in the 400m hurdles...Any one know who first broke 49.00 and 48.00? Obviously, Glenn Davis was first under 50.00 with his WR 49.5 in the 1956 OT finals in L.A. Coliseum and Kevin Young's WR the first under 47.00.
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Re: 400m hurdles: first under 49.00 and 48.00?

Postby dj » Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:05 pm

Geoff Vanderstock (48.8/48.94) at 1968 U.S. Final Olympic Trials, 1968
John Akii-Bua (47.82) at Olympic Games, 1972
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Re: 400m hurdles: first under 49.00 and 48.00?

Postby catson52 » Fri Oct 08, 2010 6:34 am

dj wrote:Geoff Vanderstock (48.8/48.94) at 1968 U.S. Final Olympic Trials, 1968
John Akii-Bua (47.82) at Olympic Games, 1972


Vanderstock's (and Hemery's) 1968 runs were, of course, altitude aided. Amazing to think that just four years later, on the biggest stage of all, Akii-Bua went under 48.00
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Re: 400m hurdles: first under 49.00 and 48.00?

Postby dj » Fri Oct 08, 2010 10:39 am

Synthetic tracks made much of the difference.
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Re: 400m hurdles: first under 49.00 and 48.00?

Postby dukehjsteve » Fri Oct 08, 2010 1:08 pm

dj wrote:Synthetic tracks made much of the difference.


Very true dj. But would you agree that the event that was most favorably influenced by synthetic tracks or runways, by far,... was the Triple Jump ?
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Re: 400m hurdles: first under 49.00 and 48.00?

Postby Marlow » Fri Oct 08, 2010 1:15 pm

dukehjsteve wrote:Very true dj. But would you agree that the event that was most favorably influenced by synthetic tracks or runways, by far,... was the Triple Jump ?

That would be an interesting physics problem: what would JE's 60-footer have been on an average grass, dirt and cinder runway? I'm guessing 55', 56' and 57'?
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Re: 400m hurdles: first under 49.00 and 48.00?

Postby lovetorun » Fri Oct 08, 2010 1:25 pm

O.K. now...back to the thread subject: Who were the first to crack 51.00, 52.00 and 53.0?
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Re: 400m hurdles: first under 49.00 and 48.00?

Postby dj » Fri Oct 08, 2010 1:39 pm

lovetorun wrote:O.K. now...back to the thread subject: Who were the first to crack 51.00, 52.00 and 53.0?


Glenn Hardin 50.6 '34 Stockholm (even more amazing considering the 385m track)
Robert Tisdall/Hardin '32 Olympics. Tisdall won in 51.7 (51.67?) but knocked down a hurdle, nullifying the record. Hardin was second in 51.9/51.85 but ran clean and got the record.)
Ivan Riley 52.1 '24 some meet before the Oly Trials
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Re: 400m hurdles: first under 49.00 and 48.00?

Postby dj » Fri Oct 08, 2010 1:42 pm

dukehjsteve wrote:
dj wrote:Synthetic tracks made much of the difference.


Very true dj. But would you agree that the event that was most favorably influenced by synthetic tracks or runways, by far,... was the Triple Jump ?


I've never tried to differentiate between the two events in terms of the influence of synthetic surfaces. But it was clear that these two benefitted more than any others, and be a great margin.

The only comparable effects due to surface changes came in the SP/DT/HT when concrete circles came into use in the 1950s, and when the floor joist was introduced as a long jump take-off board in the 1890s.
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Re: 400m hurdles: first under 49.00 and 48.00?

Postby dj » Fri Oct 08, 2010 1:46 pm

Marlow wrote:
dukehjsteve wrote:Very true dj. But would you agree that the event that was most favorably influenced by synthetic tracks or runways, by far,... was the Triple Jump ?

That would be an interesting physics problem: what would JE's 60-footer have been on an average grass, dirt and cinder runway? I'm guessing 55', 56' and 57'?


No clue. The problem is that the TJ was contested on sold-surface runways for a decade or more before synthetic/Tartan. The earlier surfaces were often macadam and later, GrassTex. Trying to find out the specific surfaces for old jumps is awfully difficult. But I surmise that the record progression almost always features marks made on well-rolled runways, quite possibly clay.
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Re: 400m hurdles: first under 49.00 and 48.00?

Postby John G » Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:16 am

Anyone know who was first under 49 at low altitude? I can only find lists going back to 71. No one was under 49 in 71 but Mann ran 48.4 in Eugene in 72 (OT meet).
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Re: 400m hurdles: first under 49.00 and 48.00?

Postby mikli » Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:59 am

With a quick look Ralph Mann with 48.5, 20.6.1970, Des Moines.
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Re: 400m hurdles: first under 49.00 and 48.00?

Postby user4 » Sun Apr 21, 2013 2:00 pm

I could not find an historical Aki Bua thread . I just watched the 1 hour special on him. Had to be the most inspiring olympic story I have ever seen. The man is legend. The part about the weight vest training and the total volume of the workouts was mesmerizing, a very talented, mentally tough individual.
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Re: 400m hurdles: first under 49.00 and 48.00?

Postby Marlow » Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:02 pm

user4 wrote:I could not find an historical Aki Bua thread . I just watched the 1 hour special on him. Had to be the most inspiring olympic story I have ever seen. The man is legend. The part about the weight vest training and the total volume of the workouts was mesmerizing, a very talented, mentally tough individual.

Superb bio-mentary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY2s6ihFrvk
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Re: 400m hurdles: first under 49.00 and 48.00?

Postby user4 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:23 am

Simply astounding. What he did from lane 1, in Munich 1972, is still the greatest 400H performance we have seen. He is the gold standard for the event.
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Re: 400m hurdles: first under 49.00 and 48.00?

Postby Marlow » Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:00 am

user4 wrote:He is the gold standard for the event.

There's a guy named E. Moses, who has already staked that claim, but JA-B was indeed a major figure in track history.
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Re: 400m hurdles: first under 49.00 and 48.00?

Postby user4 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:31 am

Marlow wrote:
user4 wrote:He is the gold standard for the event.

There's a guy named E. Moses, who has already staked that claim, but JA-B was indeed a major figure in track history.


EM is a great in every way, but simply put, and a fair comparison, JAB of 1972 beats EM of 1976 .
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Re: 400m hurdles: first under 49.00 and 48.00?

Postby Marlow » Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:07 am

user4 wrote:
Marlow wrote:
user4 wrote:He is the gold standard for the event.

There's a guy named E. Moses, who has already staked that claim, but JA-B was indeed a major figure in track history.


EM is a great in every way, but simply put, and a fair comparison, JAB of 1972 beats EM of 1976 .

Perhaps.
But he does not beat the EM of 80-83, when he was in the LOW 47s.
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Re: 400m hurdles: first under 49.00 and 48.00?

Postby norunner » Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:50 pm

If you mention Edwin Moses you also have to mention Harald Schmid. The rivalry between those two over almost a decade was one of most exciting ones in the history of T&F. I think they made each other much better hurdlers. And the final in Rome 87 with those two and Danny Harris was one of the best 400H races ever.
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Re: 400m hurdles: first under 49.00 and 48.00?

Postby user4 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:00 pm

Marlow wrote:
user4 wrote:
Marlow wrote:
user4 wrote:He is the gold standard for the event.

There's a guy named E. Moses, who has already staked that claim, but JA-B was indeed a major figure in track history.


EM is a great in every way, but simply put, and a fair comparison, JAB of 1972 beats EM of 1976 .

Perhaps.
But he does not beat the EM of 80-83, when he was in the LOW 47s.


you know that because you never had to face the sight of JAB with the same training luxuries that the great EM had in that period... period.

but since you mention low 47s , remember that JAB did what he did in Munich from lane 1. Be fair and estimate what he would have run from lane 5, as Moses had in 76. Im convinced that JAB in 1972 on that Munich track would have been mid-to-low 47 had he only drawn an outside lane.

Also again, JAB never had the luxuries of training that EM had. heck, he didnt even have the luxuries that Glenn Davis had.
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Re: 400m hurdles: first under 49.00 and 48.00?

Postby bambam » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:11 pm

norunner wrote:If you mention Edwin Moses you also have to mention Harald Schmid.


Before you mention Harald Schmid, and maybe even before John Akii-Bua, I think you should mention Glenn Davis. That guy was a stud - one of the great athletes ever. Never played college football but still walked on and played 2 years in the NFL with the Detroit Lions. LIke DJ said, some of the times in the early 70s were related to the new tracks. Davis never ran on anything but cinders and dirt. He didn't lose much, that's for sure.
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Re: 400m hurdles: first under 49.00 and 48.00?

Postby LopenUupunut » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:25 pm

dj wrote:Ivan Riley 52.1 '24 some meet before the Oly Trials
Any idea why that wasn't ratified? Did he knock down a hurdle?
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Re: 400m hurdles: first under 49.00 and 48.00?

Postby Marlow » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:41 pm

user4 wrote:Also again, JAB never had the luxuries of training that EM had. heck, he didnt even have the luxuries that Glenn Davis had.

If you watch the documentary I posted above, you'll see that his coach and training were first-rate. No, he didn't even have a decent track most of the time, but he did awesome workouts in his weighted vest that are more than a match for anything EM did in training.
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Re: 400m hurdles: first under 49.00 and 48.00?

Postby user4 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:56 pm

Marlow wrote:
user4 wrote:Also again, JAB never had the luxuries of training that EM had. heck, he didnt even have the luxuries that Glenn Davis had.

If you watch the documentary I posted above, you'll see that his coach and training were first-rate. No, he didn't even have a decent track most of the time, but he did awesome workouts in his weighted vest that are more than a match for anything EM did in training.


he ran 47.8 from lane 1 in 1972 at age 22y 9mo ... QED
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Re: 400m hurdles: first under 49.00 and 48.00?

Postby Marlow » Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:07 pm

user4 wrote:he ran 47.8 from lane 1 in 1972... QED

I'm certainly not going to denigrate anything JA-B did, because he's definitely a hero of mine, but even if he and EM had been teammates and done the same workouts, EM would have been the better 400Her (IMO).
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Re: 400m hurdles: first under 49.00 and 48.00?

Postby kuha » Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:13 pm

Marlow wrote:
user4 wrote:I could not find an historical Aki Bua thread . I just watched the 1 hour special on him. Had to be the most inspiring olympic story I have ever seen. The man is legend. The part about the weight vest training and the total volume of the workouts was mesmerizing, a very talented, mentally tough individual.

Superb bio-mentary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY2s6ihFrvk


That is a remarkable film, for sure. It is clear that he had great talent, a knowledgable coach, and that he subjected himself to a pretty incredible training regime. That combination obviously trumped tartan training tracks, etc. His Munich race was genuinely awesome.
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Re: 400m hurdles: first under 49.00 and 48.00?

Postby gh » Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:18 pm

user4 wrote:
Marlow wrote:
user4 wrote:He is the gold standard for the event.

There's a guy named E. Moses, who has already staked that claim, but JA-B was indeed a major figure in track history.


EM is a great in every way, but simply put, and a fair comparison, JAB of 1972 beats EM of 1976 .


Sorry, but having seen both races in person, my vote is that if they raced 10 times, Moses would win 9. Moses didn't make mistakes, ever. Akii-Bua needed a lot of work to get to that stage, and he wasn't there in '72.
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Re: 400m hurdles: first under 49.00 and 48.00?

Postby gh » Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:18 pm

ps--the Kevin Young of Barcelona '92 eats both alive.
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Re: 400m hurdles: first under 49.00 and 48.00?

Postby rhymans » Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:52 pm

The African boycott of 76 meant that we missed EM-JA-B. I think Akii-Bua might have ducked under 48 but I don't think he would have won [in much the same way that Hemery valiantly ran in 72, but was not quite good enough 4 years on]

On a synthetic track I'm sure that Glenn Davis would have run sub-48 - he was the 440y record holder at the time of his second OG win [and only EM has matched that - surpassing it really by winning 8 years apart]

Josef Schmidt was at his best in 1960 jumping off cinders and reaching 55'10 1/2 (the first 17m jump). He was still able to jump 55'5 off Tartan and at altitude in '68 (aged 33). The 1960 record would have been about 58'0 in Mexico City (perhaps more with one of the prevalent 2.0 readings)
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Re: 400m hurdles: first under 49.00 and 48.00?

Postby user4 » Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:47 am

rhymans wrote:The African boycott of 76 meant that we missed EM-JA-B. I think Akii-Bua might have ducked under 48 but I don't think he would have won [in much the same way that Hemery valiantly ran in 72, but was not quite good enough 4 years on]

On a synthetic track I'm sure that Glenn Davis would have run sub-48 - he was the 440y record holder at the time of his second OG win [and only EM has matched that - surpassing it really by winning 8 years apart]

Josef Schmidt was at his best in 1960 jumping off cinders and reaching 55'10 1/2 (the first 17m jump). He was still able to jump 55'5 off Tartan and at altitude in '68 (aged 33). The 1960 record would have been about 58'0 in Mexico City (perhaps more with one of the prevalent 2.0 readings)



Agree completely, JAB of 76 was not EM's match. Age in that era was a barrier no man could cross. Making the more simple and empirical comparison of the OG performances JAB'72 and EM'76 is another matter. Since they were comparable in age and these were the exact same stage of performance, OG final, I see JAB'72 as a bit more impressive. Again recall that the Munich track was of the tight-turn design and he was in lane 1. That is all I was trying to say.
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Re: 400m hurdles: first under 49.00 and 48.00?

Postby Marlow » Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:13 am

user4 wrote:the Munich track was of the tight-turn design and he was in lane 1.

Yeah, that does add to its grandeur. It was an . . . Olympian feat . . . to be sure.
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Re: 400m hurdles: first under 49.00 and 48.00?

Postby user4 » Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:57 am

Marlow wrote:
user4 wrote:the Munich track was of the tight-turn design and he was in lane 1.

Yeah, that does add to its grandeur. It was an . . . Olympian feat . . . to be sure.



It was as pure a shock and awe campaign as there could have been at the time. But of course I have still not come down from the high of watching that video biography.

By the way, accounting for the elevation of MexicoCity'68 Hemery's bronze performance in 72 can not be appreciably worse than his 68 time. Should give one even more respect for JAB and some respect for Ralph Mann's silver medal.

Regarding EM he was the consummate disciplined professional with the immense raw talent of the best combined with the intellectual horsepower to continue to refine the craft. Indeed he has no peer. However Moses is of a completely different era in the sport as JAB and those before him.
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