Yohan Blake, injured?


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Re: Yohan Blake, injured?

Postby Jackaloupe » Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:59 pm

No, Jumbo, debating what's "serious" to a Runner (an actual torn muscle, often w/ internal bleeding) vs. to a Fan (any major meet missed) is Semantics. The objective (if relative) diff. I laid out in detail (w/o mentioning the discoloration symptomatic of internal bleeding) is between a crippling Pull and a minor Strain, which can allow continuation of training.

While it is indeed a matter of degree when strain becomes actual tear--after all, micro-tears are part of virtually all training--it's still possible to differentiate, as I was trying to do.
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Re: Yohan Blake, injured?

Postby gh » Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:03 pm

how can one differentiate without having seen an MRI or the like? (and with even that being no guarantee)
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Re: Yohan Blake, injured?

Postby Jackaloupe » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:39 pm

So, what's yer point? That you've manged to inject semantics into this Thread? It's simply Begging the Question (in the correct original, rhetorical meaning of that expression), by restating some truism about muscle strain. I've provided hopefully useful distinctions into the go-round over Cramp vs. Strain vs. Pull--all matters of degree. Blake never displayed classic symptoms of a Pull: Limping, inability to even walk comfortably, swelling (we have no reports of the next day when that sets in), discoloration, etc. So far, we can only surmise that it's a Strain, not a Cramp; and that's a meaningful distinction. So what's yer gripe? That someone w/ personal experience, as opposed to seeming conjectiure, based on parsing sketchy reports?

Howsabout we await more actual information, eh?

Add: Gary, Hope it's clear I've been trying to lay out the distinctions between some commonly used descriptive terms--all the while awaiting more Info. It's futile to do any more, but counterproductive to retreat to truisms that beg the question, by restating some vague claim that a strain's a strain, and that's that.
Betcha you recall that memorable Semi-final in the 1984 Olympics--that TFN managed to analyze precisely as to time lost--when Jamaica's Bert Cameron pulled up on the backstretch, after a 21.5 first 200m, came to a virtual stop, then hobbled on to a qualifying (mid-45s?) finish. Your calc. was that Bert had lost nearly a full second! I spoke w/ Jamaican Coach Al Phillips (RIP), who confided that Cameron would not be running the Final.
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Re: Yohan Blake, injured?

Postby Speedster » Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:21 am

Two points.

1. The 200m is no easier on a bad hamstring, I'd argue its actually harder as the transition from the bend to the straight places the body under significant pressure, while not the same as the flat out 100m speeds you might see, the angles your body goes through are important. While Blake appears to build his race through the 200m, he does transition at great speed off the bend, getting that nice little pick if you hit it right.

2. I am pretty sure this is the first major injury for Blake, major enough for him to stop mid race and shelve other racing plans for six weeks anyway - some correct if I am wrong. He's known as the Beast for his efforts in training and without that it will be interesting to see how he performs later in the season with an interrupted preparation. He's obviously gifted but it will be interesting to see if he can rely on his natural talents to perform, as Bolt has done in previous years with a less that ideal lead up to a major champs.
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Re: Yohan Blake, injured?

Postby jamboy » Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:27 am

26mi235 wrote:I would not be surprised if his first meet is some low-key affair where he can run a race but not worry about trying to beat one of the top 5 or even top 10 guys, which could put more stress on it. That is what Tyson Gay did.

He does not need the money so much that he needs to race the DL. He is better, but not that much better from those in positions 3-7 that he can beat them if he is not 100% and they are.

As for 'serious', the injury is serious to the extent that it interferes with racing and training, giving him relatively little additional room for being at the top come the WCs [e.g., another similar setback would reduce his chances of beating Bolt (modest) and beating everyone else (good).

Given this, I would not be surprised to see him just do the 200 at the Trials. The 200, with its more measured build up to speed (especially the way he has often run it) and less intense top end, is likely to be easier on him and he has the bye to the WCs.

It is not 'serious' in the sense that some one calls the injury itself a serious injury. Its not good news, but it is not pretty bad news either, from what I have seen.


He is the defending 100m WC and thus, will not run that event at the trials.
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Re: Yohan Blake, injured?

Postby 26mi235 » Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:10 am

He is the defending 100m WC and thus, will not run that event at the trials.


That is why I would not be surprised if he only does the 200 (not because he cannot compete in the 100, but because he does not have to; that should have been obvious).
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Re: Yohan Blake, injured?

Postby gh » Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:23 am

see story now on front page: his manager says they're pointing for the Ja nationals.
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Re: Yohan Blake, injured?

Postby Jackaloupe » Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:48 am

This little detail, from the story just ref-ed by 'gh', confirms the nature of Blake's injury:

"Seegobin said that Blake initially thought it was a slight cramp but, after he got a little swelling, and they decided to do an MRI on Monday. “It showed that he had two very minor tears,” added Seegobin."

First time there's been any mention 0f actual symptoms, or results of the MRI. Maybe now the resident Semanticists can see why I was laying out the spectrum of symptoms, and likely effect on Training/Racing.

With these "minor tears", there may have been some minor discoloration, indicative of small amounts of blood. Any "pooling", as with a more severe tear, leads to significant bruise-like patches as it drains. Upon healing of a major Pull, the possibility of Calcium deposits arises--another benefit of modern-day MRIs and related technology.
Last edited by Jackaloupe on Sat Apr 20, 2013 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Yohan Blake, injured?

Postby ATK » Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:11 am

At this point, imagine blake running one round of the 200 aat trials and calling it quits.

Was his injury in 2011 that kept him from attempting the 200m as significant as this is?
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Re: Yohan Blake, injured?

Postby 26mi235 » Sat Apr 20, 2013 10:01 am

ATK wrote:At this point, imagine blake running one round of the 200 aat trials and calling it quits.


If he does that he will not be in the 200. He has to place top-3 in the final to be on the 200 team (or top-4 of Bolt races and finishes ahead of him). Given Jamaican depth, that is not quite a trivial accomplishment. If he doubles I expect him to be on the podium in the 200 but he is not, right now, the lock that he was before the injury. Instead we might see some of those Americans that we have been told will never again medal doing just that.
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Re: Yohan Blake, injured?

Postby ATK » Sat Apr 20, 2013 10:15 am

26mi235 wrote:
ATK wrote:At this point, imagine blake running one round of the 200 aat trials and calling it quits.


If he does that he will not be in the 200. He has to place top-3 in the final to be on the 200 team (or top-4 of Bolt races and finishes ahead of him). Given Jamaican depth, that is not quite a trivial accomplishment. If he doubles I expect him to be on the podium in the 200 but he is not, right now, the lock that he was before the injury. Instead we might see some of those Americans that we have been told will never again medal doing just that.

Yea I know he has to be top 3....

Like I said, at this point I expect him to run 1 round of the 200 and call it quits...
He has a bye in the 100 already so I can imagine his camp not wanting to take a risk of getting injured during the 200 rounds at trials and running any medal hopes in Moscow. Which is what occurred in 2011.
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Re: Yohan Blake, injured?

Postby Blues » Sat Apr 20, 2013 10:45 am

26mi235 wrote:
ATK wrote:At this point, imagine blake running one round of the 200 aat trials and calling it quits.


If he does that he will not be in the 200. He has to place top-3 in the final to be on the 200 team (or top-4 of Bolt races and finishes ahead of him). Given Jamaican depth, that is not quite a trivial accomplishment. If he doubles I expect him to be on the podium in the 200 but he is not, right now, the lock that he was before the injury. Instead we might see some of those Americans that we have been told will never again medal doing just that.


Is there a chance that Blake could qualify for the JAAA selection exemption though? I assume he won't make the 200m world top 3 in 2013 if he can't run, but I'm not sure if the JAAA rules require top 3 at the time of the national championships for an exemption, or if it could include previous world rankings.

"(a) Subject to the proviso below, athletes placing in the 1st to 3rd positions in all events will be selected if they attained the qualifying standard for the event, PROVIDED HOWEVER, that in any event where the athlete has been granted an exemption from competing in that event at the National Championships under criteria (7) below, the athlete so exempted may be considered for selection as an entrant for the event in the competition.

(b) Where an athlete has been granted an exemption and the Selection Committee has determined that such an athlete should be selected among the entrants for the event, that athlete shall be selected above the athlete placing third at the national championships or in place of an athlete finishing in either of the first two places of the event, where any of these athletes has been determined by a medical panel appointed by the JAAA to be ill or injured and not being in satisfactory physical condition to warrant being entered to compete.

"(7) Athletes who are ranked/listed in the top three in the world for their event who are ill or injured at the time of National Championships and are granted an exemption from competing at the National Championships may still be considered for selection, provided that they are able to prove their world ranking form prior to the final submission of the entries for competition."
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Re: Yohan Blake, injured?

Postby 26mi235 » Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:05 am

Blues wrote:"(7) Athletes who are ranked/listed in the top three in the world for their event who are ill or injured at the time of National Championships and are granted an exemption from competing at the National Championships may still be considered for selection, provided that they are able to prove their world ranking form prior to the final submission of the entries for competition."
[/i]


It may specify what Top-3 means (current rankings, top three marks of the year) or last year's ranking. If the former, then if he is not racing until the JA Trials then he might not meet the criteria, especially since it is not too long before they hit the submission deadline. The problems created last time Jamaica replaced people will likely make them a little cautious, I would think.
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Re: Yohan Blake, injured?

Postby JumboElliott » Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:59 am

So we can establish that this is a substantial injury?
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Re: Yohan Blake, injured?

Postby jamboy » Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:07 am

JumboElliott wrote:So we can establish that this is a substantial injury?


Unless your his doctor or his coach/agent or someone close to him, everything else other than what is released to the media is pure speculation.
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Re: Yohan Blake, injured?

Postby ATK » Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:33 am

JumboElliott wrote:So we can establish that this is a substantial injury?

Considering he is basically going to enter JAAA trials with a major questionmark now....Yes
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Re: Yohan Blake, injured?

Postby jamboy » Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:57 am

ATK wrote:
JumboElliott wrote:So we can establish that this is a substantial injury?

Considering he is basically going to enter JAAA trials with a major questionmark now....Yes



Unless your his doctor or his coach/agent or someone close to him, everything else other than what is released to the media is pure speculation.
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Re: Yohan Blake, injured?

Postby JumboElliott » Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:58 am

You are such a fanboy.
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Re: Yohan Blake, injured?

Postby ATK » Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:15 am

jamboy wrote:
ATK wrote:
JumboElliott wrote:So we can establish that this is a substantial injury?

Considering he is basically going to enter JAAA trials with a major questionmark now....Yes



Unless your his doctor or his coach/agent or someone close to him, everything else other than what is released to the media is pure speculation.

You mean common sense?
Athletes don't just cut out a 3rd of their season for fun.
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Re: Yohan Blake, injured?

Postby JumboElliott » Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:21 am

Especially in a championship year.
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Re: Yohan Blake, injured?

Postby jamboy » Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:44 pm

JumboElliott wrote:Especially in a championship year.


For me a major injury would be a ruptured achilles tendon or hamstring injury which surgery might be required and would result him being out for the rest of the year.

MRI does not suggest that so hopefully, he would be back in somewhat good form in a few weeks.
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Re: Yohan Blake, injured?

Postby JumboElliott » Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:25 am

Good to know that a broken leg isn't a major injury then, because it might not require surgery.
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Re: Yohan Blake, injured?

Postby jamboy » Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:57 am

JumboElliott wrote:Good to know that a broken leg isn't a major injury then, because it might not require surgery.


Stop being silly. I was just giving an example of what would be considered major.

Of course a broken leg would be considered major. My example was generic and obviously it flew right over your head :D
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Re: Yohan Blake, injured?

Postby eldanielfire » Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:49 am

jamboy wrote:
JumboElliott wrote:Good to know that a broken leg isn't a major injury then, because it might not require surgery.


Stop being silly. I was just giving an example of what would be considered major.

Of course a broken leg would be considered major. My example was generic and obviously it flew right over your head :D


Or his point flew over yours.....
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Re: Yohan Blake, injured?

Postby jamboy » Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:53 am

eldanielfire wrote:
jamboy wrote:
JumboElliott wrote:Good to know that a broken leg isn't a major injury then, because it might not require surgery.


Stop being silly. I was just giving an example of what would be considered major.

Of course a broken leg would be considered major. My example was generic and obviously it flew right over your head :D


Or his point flew over yours.....


And your being way too silly now :D
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Re: Yohan Blake, injured?

Postby t_monk » Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:32 am

Losing 6 - 8 weeks of training is serious business. Blake was always a bit frail where injuries are concerned. He was injured right out of high school and didn't really get fully sorted out until around 2010/2011. I hope this isn't the start of something reoccurring, Mills has done a really good job of managing Usain's injuries so I don't think there should be much difference with Blake.
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Re: Yohan Blake, injured?

Postby Jackaloupe » Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:39 am

Losing 6 - 8 weeks of training is serious business

Has anyone said that, or even suggested it? Speculation here centered on which actual Meets Blake would give a pass--so to speak.

BTW, the FP Article on Asafa Powell contains the same vague language: first little concern, then "more serious than first thought", but still not even hampering Training (that much).

I'd fully expect Blake's been back in training for some time now (vague enough?).
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Re: Yohan Blake, injured?

Postby batonless relay » Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:54 am

t_monk wrote:Losing 6 - 8 weeks of training is serious business. Blake was always a bit frail where injuries are concerned. He was injured right out of high school and didn't really get fully sorted out until around 2010/2011. I hope this isn't the start of something reoccurring, Mills has done a really good job of managing Usain's injuries so I don't think there should be much difference with Blake.

I'm unsure if it has anything to do with "frailty", and it may have less to do with "managing" by Mills (now or in the past); I think it has to do with intensity. Yes, it's fun to watch sub-9.80/sub-19.40 runs but almost every athlete who has been there is treated to injuries of some kind shortly after (see Powell, A; Gay,T; Johnson, M...).
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Re: Yohan Blake, injured?

Postby t_monk » Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:10 am

batonless relay wrote:
t_monk wrote:Losing 6 - 8 weeks of training is serious business. Blake was always a bit frail where injuries are concerned. He was injured right out of high school and didn't really get fully sorted out until around 2010/2011. I hope this isn't the start of something reoccurring, Mills has done a really good job of managing Usain's injuries so I don't think there should be much difference with Blake.

I'm unsure if it has anything to do with "frailty", and it may have less to do with "managing" by Mills (now or in the past); I think it has to do with intensity. Yes, it's fun to watch sub-9.80/sub-19.40 runs but almost every athlete who has been there is treated to injuries of some kind shortly after (see Powell, A; Gay,T; Johnson, M...).


All throughout HS Champs and during his transition he had injury issues. He probably isn't as injury prone as say Sherone Simpson, Schelonie Calvert or Rose-Marie Whyte but he still is quite susceptible to injuries.
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Re: Yohan Blake, injured?

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:57 am

batonless relay wrote:I'm unsure if it has anything to do with "frailty", and it may have less to do with "managing" by Mills (now or in the past); I think it has to do with intensity. Yes, it's fun to watch sub-9.80/sub-19.40 runs but almost every athlete who has been there is treated to injuries of some kind shortly after (see Powell, A; Gay,T; Johnson, M...).


I was going to write something similar until I saw your post which not only said it before I got to it but said it better (and with more authority).

I have a question. Bolt certainly upped the ante, where 9.7 went from WR target to the level necessary to be on the podium with little chance to be on top without extenuating circumstances (e.g., Bolt FS). Has the higher target level resulted in a higher rate of injury for the top sprinters? As a second question, is Blake more prone to injury because he is so strong (e.g., he is not referred to as The Beast for no reason). Of course, others who are not identifiable as extremely strong have also had injury problems trying to keep up -- Gay and Dix notable among them.
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Re: Yohan Blake, injured?

Postby batonless relay » Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:21 pm

26mi235 wrote:I was going to write something similar until I saw your post which not only said it before I got to it but said it better (and with more authority).

I have a question. Bolt certainly upped the ante, where 9.7 went from WR target to the level necessary to be on the podium with little chance to be on top without extenuating circumstances (e.g., Bolt FS). Has the higher target level resulted in a higher rate of injury for the top sprinters? As a second question, is Blake more prone to injury because he is so strong (e.g., he is not referred to as The Beast for no reason). Of course, others who are not identifiable as extremely strong have also had injury problems trying to keep up -- Gay and Dix notable among them.

I can't show in quantifiable terms that there are more injuries, but I think at that level (sub-9.80), whatever inefficiencies that you may have in your technique/gait, only lends to breaking your body down (think of a driving on a flat tire: at very slow speeds it's drivable, but as you speed up it becomes nearly impossible to handle). Most people thought that Dix would tear himself apart before he went faster if he didn't change his technique and last year while making the changes... It is believed by many that Asafa Powell's inefficiencies ultimately led to his frequent injuries and we could say the same for Tyson Gay (Gay admitted that he was training for sub-9.70 when he was injured). And, Nesta Carter seems to have been snake bitten (but he was never the most durable). Even though I can't actually say the speed itself is responsible, the body can only take so much.
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