USATF photo-finish tiebreaking?


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USATF photo-finish tiebreaking?

Postby DrJay » Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:59 am

Almost posted a tongue-in-cheek reference to this on the Eugene 2016 thread, regarding the "bigger, better, different" link on the front page, but it's actually an important issue. I may have missed it, or not, but has USATF devised a way to break photo-finish ties when a national team berth is on the line?
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Re: USATF photo-finish tiebreaking?

Postby Marlow » Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:12 am

DrJay wrote:Has USATF devised a way to break photo-finish ties when a national team berth is on the line?

Well, they sure set a 'precedent' last summer, but, as you suggest, have they NOW closed the barn door? :roll:
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Re: USATF photo-finish tiebreaking?

Postby 26mi235 » Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:06 pm

Anything that is that close has to be considered a tie and some tie-breaking method is necessary rather than trying to determine if there is enough 'hairs' different in the photo when the uncertainties in the length of the lanes, of the gun sound reach athletes etc. is as large as those hairs.
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Re: USATF photo-finish tiebreaking?

Postby Conor Dary » Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:13 pm

To get an overhead shot they could hire a drone that would hover over the finish line. It could also have missiles on it to take out hooligans on Agate St. when not needed at the finish.
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Re: USATF photo-finish tiebreaking?

Postby CookyMonzta » Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:53 pm

26mi235 wrote:Anything that is that close has to be considered a tie and some tie-breaking method is necessary rather than trying to determine if there is enough 'hairs' different in the photo when the uncertainties in the length of the lanes, of the gun sound reach athletes etc. is as large as those hairs.

Like I said before, given enough time to rest following a meet (you don't dare hold a runoff in the 10,000 inside a week after the final), pick a meet, have them enter it, and whoever finishes ahead gets the final spot. That is what I call a real-world situation. if he or she is not ready to perform at or near his or her peak in an international meet that doubles as a runoff, that athlete is not ready for the big one.

[By the way, was Jeneba Tarmoh sponsored or endorsed by Nike?]
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Re: USATF photo-finish tiebreaking?

Postby 26mi235 » Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

There is the issue that the team has to be final after the Trials and, supposedly, after the Final.
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Re: USATF photo-finish tiebreaking?

Postby lonewolf » Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:45 pm

This thing has more lives than a cat. :)
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Re: USATF photo-finish tiebreaking?

Postby eldanielfire » Sat Apr 13, 2013 6:51 am

Marlow wrote:
DrJay wrote:Has USATF devised a way to break photo-finish ties when a national team berth is on the line?

Well, they sure set a 'precedent' last summer, but, as you suggest, have they NOW closed the barn door? :roll:


To be fair when you use a camera that is supposed to take shots to the point it can distinguish something to 1/3000 of a second (or whatever the specifics was) and it can't separate the difference between two athletes at that scale you simply can't expect that in 100 years or even a thousand. that is a fluke of a finish and it doesn't mean you need to change anything because of it.
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Re: USATF photo-finish tiebreaking?

Postby 18.99s » Sat Apr 13, 2013 7:06 am

eldanielfire wrote:To be fair when you use a camera that is supposed to take shots to the point it can distinguish something to 1/3000 of a second (or whatever the specifics was) and it can't separate the difference between two athletes at that scale you simply can't expect that in 100 years or even a thousand. that is a fluke of a finish and it doesn't mean you need to change anything because of it.


It's not so flukish; it also happened in the women's 100m final in Beijing. Fortunately there was the simple solution of giving two silvers.

They need to decide on a method that doesn't involve runoffs, like head-to-head record during the season or season's best or better semifinal performance or some mix of all of the above.
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Re: USATF photo-finish tiebreaking?

Postby gh » Sat Apr 13, 2013 7:43 am

26mi235 wrote:There is the issue that the team has to be final after the Trials and, supposedly, after the Final.


That wasn't an issue, since both were already on the team because of relay considerations; they could have waited a month to have a runoff with no problems/violations of protocol.
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Re: USATF photo-finish tiebreaking?

Postby aaronk » Sat Apr 13, 2013 8:03 am

Conor Dary wrote:To get an overhead shot they could hire a drone that would hover over the finish line. It could also have missiles on it to take out hooligans on Agate St. when not needed at the finish.


:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: USATF photo-finish tiebreaking?

Postby eldanielfire » Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:15 pm

18.99s wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:To be fair when you use a camera that is supposed to take shots to the point it can distinguish something to 1/3000 of a second (or whatever the specifics was) and it can't separate the difference between two athletes at that scale you simply can't expect that in 100 years or even a thousand. that is a fluke of a finish and it doesn't mean you need to change anything because of it.


It's not so flukish; it also happened in the women's 100m final in Beijing. Fortunately there was the simple solution of giving two silvers.

They need to decide on a method that doesn't involve runoffs, like head-to-head record during the season or season's best or better semifinal performance or some mix of all of the above.


Leave it to the selectors to decide who they think will perform better. It's difficult but such a rare fluke that even twice in 4 years is statistically incredible.
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Re: USATF photo-finish tiebreaking?

Postby Marlow » Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:40 pm

eldanielfire wrote:Leave it to the selectors to decide who they think will perform better.

Sorry, April Fool's Day was two weeks ago.
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Re: USATF photo-finish tiebreaking?

Postby DrJay » Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:07 am

bump.

So, with another selection meet at hand, anyone know what USATF has done, if anything, in the unlikely event a tie for 3rd happens again? I emailed some USATF official in April and never got a reply.
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Re: USATF photo-finish tiebreaking?

Postby Blues » Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:42 am

DrJay wrote:bump.

So, with another selection meet at hand, anyone know what USATF has done, if anything, in the unlikely event a tie for 3rd happens again? I emailed some USATF official in April and never got a reply.


Not sure if this is what you need, but here are the official tie breaking procedures for the USATF Championships to determine the Moscow team, divided into 2 posts so as not to exceed max number of characters.

Tie Break Procedures for Running Events:

If there is a tie for any rank position that affects team selection, the tie shall be broken by the following procedures, in order, as they apply.

Running Events:

1. For all running events, with the exception of the marathon and 50K race walk;

a. The athletes affected and/or their respective representatives will receive, from a USATF official, written notification that the race results are in question and that tie breaking procedures must be initiated. The athletes and/or representatives must acknowledge in writing their receipt of the notification.
b. If all affected athletes agree to a run-off, the run-off will be held within the most time allowed before the roster deadline, but not later than 72 hours, after the last day of the selection competition. The athlete’s decision to compete in the run-off, must be communicated in writing to USATF within two hours from which the last athlete was notified. Failure to do so will be construed as a decision to decline participation in a run-off.

2. Any athlete that agrees to run-off, and then changes his/her mind after the two-hour deadline, forfeits any rights to the higher place.

3. If all affected athletes do not agree to do a run-off, the tie shall be broken by lot. For the purposes of the tie-break procedure, “by lot” will be defined as follows:

a. For two persons, the tie shall be broken via coin toss.
b. For three or more persons, the tie shall be broken by drawing names from a bowl. The names shall be written on paper of the same size and folded in the same manner.

4. Any athlete who refuses to participate in the tie-break procedure forfeits any rights to the higher place.



Last edited by Blues on Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: USATF photo-finish tiebreaking?

Postby booond » Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:45 am

1. draw straws 2. rock, paper, scissors 3. Guess which number I'm thinking of 4. Spirited game of duck, duck, goose. 5. Tequila shots - first one to puke loses.
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Re: USATF photo-finish tiebreaking?

Postby Blues » Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:46 am

Official USATF tie breaking procedures for field and combined events:

Tie Break Procedures for Field and Combined Events


If there is a tie for any rank position that affects team selection, the tie shall be broken by the following procedures, in order, as they apply.

Field events:

1)Athletes participating in the final round of competition will be assigned a rank based upon their place-finish in the finals;

2) Athletes that do not qualify for the finals will establish their rank order position based on the athlete's best mark achieved in the qualifying round. An athlete's ranking will be based upon the highest round completed by an athlete.
If after exhausting Rule 180.14 there remains a tie for the last team position in a field event other than the high jump and pole vault, there shall be an additional round of jumping/throwing immediately after the event. If that round does not break the tie, one or more additional rounds shall be held until one round breaks the tie. If, after exhausting Rule 181.9, there remains a tie for the last team position in the high jump and pole vault, the tie will be broken by a jump-off, using the rules and procedures normally applicable to jump-offs to break ties for first place. Field event jump-offs will take place, if possible, 1) immediately after the event but 2) no later than the morning following the event.

Any athlete who refuses to participate in the tie-break procedure forfeits any rights to the higher place.

Combined Events:

If after exhausting Rule 200.12 there remains a tie for the last team position in a combined event, the tie shall be broken by lot. Any athlete who refuses to participate in the tie-break procedure forfeits any rights to the higher place.
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Re: USATF photo-finish tiebreaking?

Postby Daisy » Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:56 am

18.99s wrote:It's not so flukish; it also happened in the women's 100m final in Beijing. Fortunately there was the simple solution of giving two silvers.

They need to decide on a method that doesn't involve runoffs, like head-to-head record during the season or season's best or better semifinal performance or some mix of all of the above.

Thinking about this, it only real matters if there is a third/fourth tie. All others can just be called a tie and everyone will live with it. Third/fourth is unique as only one person can be entered into the individual event. I guess a first/second tie would be as important if there are fewer that three A qualifiers in the event.
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Re: USATF photo-finish tiebreaking?

Postby DrJay » Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:24 am

Mano-a-mano 5K or 10K runoff. That'd be interesting.

Thanks for the rules post.
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Re: USATF photo-finish tiebreaking?

Postby DrJay » Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:25 am

Was that rule in place last year, or did they make it up on the fly then codify it after the OT?
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Re: USATF photo-finish tiebreaking?

Postby MJR » Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:27 am

Tried to get a clarification, have not heard back yet, but also appears to apply to the 20000m RWs too.
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Re: USATF photo-finish tiebreaking?

Postby ATK » Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:50 am

MJR wrote:Tried to get a clarification, have not heard back yet, but also appears to apply to the 20000m RWs too.

...






:shock:
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Re: USATF photo-finish tiebreaking?

Postby 26mi235 » Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:30 am

DrJay wrote:Mano-a-mano 5K or 10K runoff. That'd be interesting.

Thanks for the rules post.


Not certain that I have this correct, and a photo in the 10,000 is not real common, BUT it was close for the women in the 5000 last year and Teg only lost third by 0.03.


If you do the 10,000, 72 hours later is Sunday evening at about 10pm. The 5000 Final is at 4:30. Now that would be one hell of a three-race series [10,000 Final/5000 Final/10,000 runoff], especially as it looks like it will stay hot. [In the case where one athlete does just the 10,000 and the other the double]
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Re: USATF photo-finish tiebreaking?

Postby Blues » Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:56 am

26mi235 wrote:
DrJay wrote:Mano-a-mano 5K or 10K runoff. That'd be interesting.

Thanks for the rules post.


Not certain that I have this correct, and a photo in the 10,000 is not real common, BUT it was close for the women in the 5000 last year and Teg only lost third by 0.03.


If you do the 10,000, 72 hours later is Sunday evening at about 10pm. The 5000 Final is at 4:30. Now that would be one hell of a three-race series [10,000 Final/5000 Final/10,000 runoff], especially as it looks like it will stay hot. [In the case where one athlete does just the 10,000 and the other the double]


If by chance "the last day of the selection competition" refers to the last day of the USATF championships, it would allow a runoff for any of the involved running events through the following Wednesday.
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Re: USATF photo-finish tiebreaking?

Postby 18.99s » Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:06 pm

Runoffs for 5K, 10K, steeple? Drawing lots? :roll:

They have so many other performance-based options like season's best, head-to-head during the season (or by-event head-to-head for multis), semifinal placement, before resorting to runoffs or drawing lots. They're being unimaginative and ridiculous.
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Re: USATF photo-finish tiebreaking?

Postby 26mi235 » Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:10 pm

The event head-to-head might already be included in the wording; I would have to look carefully to know, though. As for the 10,000, best marks is not particularly relevant because the circumstances differ so much (for instance, X has the auto A standard from placing 8th in the W XC, and others may just run to get the Q time). This is not like the 100 with 12 marks to choose from.
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Re: USATF photo-finish tiebreaking?

Postby 18.99s » Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:17 pm

Daisy wrote:Thinking about this, it only real matters if there is a third/fourth tie. All others can just be called a tie and everyone will live with it. Third/fourth is unique as only one person can be entered into the individual event. I guess a first/second tie would be as important if there are fewer that three A qualifiers in the event.


If all of the top 3 haven't met the A or B standard, the tiebreaker scenario could happen at any position outside the top 4. Theoretically you could have to decide a tie for 11th place if only one of the top 10 has the A or B but the two who are deadlocked at 11th have the A.
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