Çakır-Alptekin positive? [second scandal erupts]


A place for the discussion of all things not closely related to the sport and its competitive side. (as always, locked for the duration of major international championship)

Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby eldanielfire » Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:58 am

ldnbloke wrote:Re J Gatlin ( and SA Fraser-Pryce) - the real issue is why they didn't declare the substances they had taken. Has anyone heard of an explanation? Adderall and opiates require a doctor to prescribe them, explain side effects etc... If Gatlin was taking this since childhood did he really fail to grasp the need to declare it and was submitting samples for some time without mentioning it. If these two do not understand this simple rule of anti-doping procedures, do they need to be moved to compete in a paralympic category? As I doubt this is the case then they should make public statements about the non-declaration.
This is not the same as the non declarations of Andrea Raducan, Alain Baxter, Yohan Blake and Sandra Perkovic who failed tests for substances present in products you can buy with no prescription in a corner shop.


I'm fairy sympathetic for tall the cases of above. With Gatlin, I'm sympathetic to his original ADHD medication, it's quite obvious a kid may not clock that and he had been on them for a decade, had he only suddenly been taking ADHD medication I would be less sympathetic to his cause. I'm unsympathetic to him now because he seemed to keep being associated with dodgy individuals.

Shelly-Ann Frazer Price is an even more sympathetic case, she went to the dentist, was in pain after just before a race and took some pain killers a friend/coach gave her. It's easy to slip up in that sort of situation. Certain when I've been at friends and have a headache I'd take any pills I was told were pain killers without regard to what side effects could be. It doesn't excuse her but her coach should know better.

In these cases we need consistent sanctions, though I understand the need for a body to rule what the circumstances are or were.
eldanielfire
 
Posts: 1316
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:07 am

Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby gh » Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:59 am

ldnbloke wrote:Re J Gatlin ( and SA Fraser-Pryce) - the real issue is why they didn't declare the substances they had taken. ....


The answer is simple. If you're in your teens/early 20s and an authority figure in your life (Gatlin's doctor, SAFP's coach) says, "here, take this and you'll feel better," you take it. Not many athletes are biochemistry majors.

(we're talking Gatlin 1 here, not Gatlin 2)
gh
 
Posts: 46298
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby br » Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:19 am

gh wrote:
ldnbloke wrote:Re J Gatlin ( and SA Fraser-Pryce) - the real issue is why they didn't declare the substances they had taken. ....


The answer is simple. If you're in your teens/early 20s and an authority figure in your life (Gatlin's doctor, SAFP's coach) says, "here, take this and you'll feel better," you take it. Not many athletes are biochemistry majors.

(we're talking Gatlin 1 here, not Gatlin 2)


http://www.usantidoping.org/files/activ ... gatlin.pdf

8. Under the I.A.A.F. definition of doping a doping violation takes place when a prohibited substance (in this case amphetamine) is found to be present within an athlete's bodily fluids, unless a prior medical exemption was given by the I.A.A.F. for the use of the substance. Mr. Gatlin never sought any medical exemption from the I.A.A.F. He did, however, disclose his prescription medicine to his doctor at the University of Tennessee.

9. Based on medical experts' opinion of this case, it is not unreasonable for this panel to assume that, if requested, the exemption would likely have been granted. Rather than to seek a medical exemption, the course of action followed by most athletes with ADD is simply to discontinue their use of their medication in advance of a competition. This is what Mr. Gatlin did. USADA advises athletes after consultation with their physicians to discontinue using the ADD medication to clear their system. Mr. Gatlin's doctor did not know how far in advance of competing Mr. Gatlin should stop taking his medication.
br
 
Posts: 478
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby ldnbloke » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:45 am

gh wrote:
ldnbloke wrote:Re J Gatlin ( and SA Fraser-Pryce) - the real issue is why they didn't declare the substances they had taken. ....


The answer is simple. If you're in your teens/early 20s and an authority figure in your life (Gatlin's doctor, SAFP's coach) says, "here, take this and you'll feel better," you take it. Not many athletes are biochemistry majors.

(we're talking Gatlin 1 here, not Gatlin 2)

I find it hard to accept that they couldn't write 'ADHD pill'or 'pain killer' on their declaration form. As they had been tested before they should've known to write it down as the form invites you to declare. I really think they should've issued a statement as to why (even if they came up with a lie). Otherwise if they're not of sufficient mental capacity to do so , then they should be accompanied by a responsible adult when being tested.
ldnbloke
 
Posts: 89
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:37 pm

Re: Cakir-Alptekin positive?

Postby Flumpy » Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:28 am

nevetsllim wrote:
CookyMonzta wrote:This is going to kill Istanbul's chances to host the XXXII Olympiad in 2020. I hope South Africa is in the running and fights for it.


Madrid and Tokyo are the other cities in the running and it's not like Spain's all hunky-dory on the anti-doping front. :!:


I'm very much looking forward to visiting Tokyo for the first time :P
Flumpy
 
Posts: 3899
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby gh » Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:30 am

ldnbloke wrote:
gh wrote:
ldnbloke wrote:Re J Gatlin ( and SA Fraser-Pryce) - the real issue is why they didn't declare the substances they had taken. ....


The answer is simple. If you're in your teens/early 20s and an authority figure in your life (Gatlin's doctor, SAFP's coach) says, "here, take this and you'll feel better," you take it. Not many athletes are biochemistry majors.

(we're talking Gatlin 1 here, not Gatlin 2)

I find it hard to accept that they couldn't write 'ADHD pill'or 'pain killer' on their declaration form. As they had been tested before they should've known to write it down as the form invites you to declare. I really think they should've issued a statement as to why (even if they came up with a lie). Otherwise if they're not of sufficient mental capacity to do so , then they should be accompanied by a responsible adult when being tested.


you've obvioiusly never had a job that involved looking at forms that the common man has filled out! Filling out forms (and reading instructions) just isn't a part of the normal human genome.
gh
 
Posts: 46298
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby Flumpy » Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:44 am

gh wrote:I think it would be very instructive for some of you to read the original judgment on the Gatlin Adderal case, which contains this (bolds mine):

<<...The CAS Panel specifically found that "Mr. Gatlin's inadvertent violation of the IAAF's rules was at most a 'technical' or 'paperwork' violation" and that "Mr. Gatlin neither cheated nor did he intend to cheat. He did not intend to enhance his performance nor, given his medical condition, did his medication in fact enhance his performance. At most, his mistake was in not raising his medical condition for a review with the appropriate authorities [IAAF] before the race, instead of after it."


But this is all totally irrelevant Gaz. Nobody is arguing that his first offense was intentional or that he gained any unfair advantage but he was reinstated early and both the IAAF Council and the USATF press releases emphasized that he had committed a doping offence and that it would constitute a first offence for the purposes of any subsequent positive result and warned that a lifetime ban could be applied if there was a subsequent doping offence committed by Gatlin.

Knowing that he chose to cheat again so fully deserved to be punished in the manner that was promised.

I have yet to see an explanation as to why this wasn't upheld?
Flumpy
 
Posts: 3899
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby mump boy » Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:45 am

Blues wrote: If somebody like SAFP should someday test positive for taking a swig of a drink from a teammate, and the drink contained methylhexanamine for example, should she be banned for life because she took a percocet tablet prior to a race once after a tooth extraction?


This scenario has NOTHING in common with Gatlin's, his 2nd positive wasn't for methylhexanamine, which has only recently been added to the banned list, was certainly in many over the counter remedies and some sports drinks etc. he was caught guzzling steroids supplied to him by the most infamous PED pushing coach in track history, after nearly all his training mates had already been caught !!

If Gatlin's positives had been the other way round you may have a point but at the moment you just come off as an apologist.
mump boy
 
Posts: 5636
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: saaaaaarf london

Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby gh » Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:53 am

Flumpy wrote:
gh wrote:I think it would be very instructive for some of you to read the original judgment on the Gatlin Adderal case, which contains this (bolds mine):

<<...The CAS Panel specifically found that "Mr. Gatlin's inadvertent violation of the IAAF's rules was at most a 'technical' or 'paperwork' violation" and that "Mr. Gatlin neither cheated nor did he intend to cheat. He did not intend to enhance his performance nor, given his medical condition, did his medication in fact enhance his performance. At most, his mistake was in not raising his medical condition for a review with the appropriate authorities [IAAF] before the race, instead of after it."


But this is all totally irrelevant Gaz. Nobody is arguing that his first offense was intentional or that he gained any unfair advantage but he was reinstated early and both the IAAF Council and the USATF press releases emphasized that he had committed a doping offence and that it would constitute a first offence for the purposes of any subsequent positive result and warned that a lifetime ban could be applied if there was a subsequent doping offence committed by Gatlin.

Knowing that he chose to cheat again so fully deserved to be punished in the manner that was promised.

I have yet to see an explanation as to why this wasn't upheld?


Because CAS, which has the final say, ruled that he was again eligible. CAS exists to arbitrate rulings made by other bodies; it is not bound to uphold them. As it should be.
gh
 
Posts: 46298
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby Blues » Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:40 am

mump boy wrote:If Gatlin's positives had been the other way round you may have a point but at the moment you just come off as an apologist.



Well, if I had to choose, I guess I'd rather come off as an apologist than as a hanging judge or lynch mob member... :wink:
Blues
 
Posts: 1088
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 9:58 am

Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby gh » Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:58 am

supporting the protocols that are in place certainly doesn't make one an apologist.
gh
 
Posts: 46298
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby mump boy » Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:26 pm

gh wrote:supporting the protocols that are in place certainly doesn't make one an apologist.


It does if your apologising for the protocols :P
mump boy
 
Posts: 5636
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: saaaaaarf london

Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby Blues » Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:57 pm

Additionally, Gatlin stated that there were no declaration forms at the USATF Junior Championships in 2001 where he tested positive for amphetamine.. He testified to the involved panels that he stopped taking his Adderall several days prior to the competition as was standard procedure at the time. Medical experts agreed that the low urinary amphetamine levels in Gatlin's samples were consistent with a last dose having been taken several days earlier.

The USATF Junior Championship Meet was also Gatlin's first USATF sanctioned meet. His earlier NCAA competitions as a frosh at Tennessee did not consider Adderall a banned substance as long as the athlete had a valid prescription for a legitimate medical purpose.

Even today, the NCAA protocol is that the school just has to keep the athlete's medical information (diagnosis, course of treatment, and current prescription information) on file, and fill out a medical exception form after the fact should an athlete from the school test positive for certain banned substances that they have a legitimate prescription for, including ADHD medications like Adderall... Anabolic steroids and peptide hormones require prior approval, but other substances like ADHD meds don't.
Blues
 
Posts: 1088
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 9:58 am

Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby mump boy » Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:09 pm

Blues wrote:Additionally, Gatlin stated that there were no declaration forms at the USATF Junior Championships in 2001 where he tested positive for amphetamine.. He testified to the involved panels that he stopped taking his Adderall several days prior to the competition as was standard procedure at the time. Medical experts agreed that the low urinary amphetamine levels in Gatlin's samples were consistent with a last dose having been taken several days earlier.

The USATF Junior Championship Meet was also Gatlin's first USATF sanctioned meet. His earlier NCAA competitions as a frosh at Tennessee did not consider Adderall a banned substance as long as the athlete had a valid prescription for a legitimate medical purpose.

Even today, the NCAA protocol is that the school just has to keep the athlete's medical information (diagnosis, course of treatment, and current prescription information) on file, and fill out a medical exception form after the fact should an athlete from the school test positive for certain banned substances that they have a legitimate prescription for, including ADHD medications like Adderall... Anabolic steroids and peptide hormones require prior approval, but other substances like ADHD meds don't.


NOBODY CARES ABOUT HIS ADDERALL POSITIVE
mump boy
 
Posts: 5636
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: saaaaaarf london

Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby gh » Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:12 pm

of course you do.... if you accept it as a fraud (which it was), then there is zero grounds for the life ban you seem to think he should have had. (without getting into whether or not one believes that even a first-time offense should draw life, but that's a different kettle of fish)
gh
 
Posts: 46298
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby JumboElliott » Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:25 pm

Even the four year punishment was arbitrary and capricious based on the 2001 "positive test".
JumboElliott
 
Posts: 2114
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:46 am

Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby ldnbloke » Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:46 pm

Blues wrote:Additionally, Gatlin stated that there were no declaration forms at the USATF Junior Championships in 2001 where he tested positive for amphetamine

If that's correct then why were they even conducting the tests? How many athletes failed tests for Salbutamol etc then? Hard to believe at the whole champ not one athlete had asthma!
BLR and USA have the weirdest doping/antidoping stories to tell...
ldnbloke
 
Posts: 89
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:37 pm

Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby mump boy » Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:52 pm

gh wrote:of course you do.... if you accept it as a fraud (which it was), then there is zero grounds for the life ban you seem to think he should have had. (without getting into whether or not one believes that even a first-time offense should draw life, but that's a different kettle of fish)


He tested positive and accepted whatever sanction was imposed with the understanding that it counted as a first failure and any subsequent ones would mean a life ban, I honestly don't care about the minutiae. There are lots of athletes in the same circumstances who have minor bans for stimulants, recreational drugs etc etc. It's a lesson and you move on ad be more careful in the future. Knowing his situation he chose the most notorious coach in track and the behaviours that went along with it.

Everyone knows i'm a massive fan of TBO and have much sympathy for her missed tests situation but she was rightly banned and if she ever tests positive for a steroid they can throw the book at her as far as i'm concerned. The same stands for Justin Gatlin and anyone else in their situation, if you inadvertently get sanctioned once you better make sure you never chose the PED route in the future as you know what will happen.

No matter the rights and wrongs of amphetamine use, not signing he right forms, being badly advised etc etc it is all irrelevant to the choice he made 5 years later being fully aware of the consequences.
mump boy
 
Posts: 5636
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: saaaaaarf london

Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby gh » Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:06 pm

One reason civilized nations have a checks & balances legal system is to protect people from their own stupidity.
gh
 
Posts: 46298
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby bobguild76 » Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:39 pm

This is a great discussion ... I don't think anyone wants to make light of Gatlin's 2006 PED use. It seems the major point in dispute has to do with the human element in this process. And in my opinion there must be a human element when it comes to the sentence. Otherwise, why even have a CAS? We would simply take the lab results, go to the appropriate sanctions chart, and notify the athlete in question of his/her sentence. And in most cases, the sentencing authority does just that.

But there should always be an avenue of appeal. That is where trust comes in ... trust in the process and trust in the people who make the process work. Much has been made of the 2001 warning to Gatlin that any future PED use would be considered a second offense. But the folks who heard his 2006 appeal were aware of the 2001 warning, yet still chose to make his '06 penalty a 4 year ban. They considered the facts of the case, and made a decision that was within their scope of authority to make.

We may disagree on the wisdom of that decision. But no one subverted the process. The folks who made this decision weren't babes in the woods. I may disagree with their judgement, but I acknowledge their authority to make that judgement.
bobguild76
 
Posts: 438
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:39 pm

Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby eldanielfire » Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:01 pm

mump boy wrote:
gh wrote:of course you do.... if you accept it as a fraud (which it was), then there is zero grounds for the life ban you seem to think he should have had. (without getting into whether or not one believes that even a first-time offense should draw life, but that's a different kettle of fish)


He tested positive and accepted whatever sanction was imposed with the understanding that it counted as a first failure and any subsequent ones would mean a life ban, I honestly don't care about the minutiae. There are lots of athletes in the same circumstances who have minor bans for stimulants, recreational drugs etc etc. It's a lesson and you move on ad be more careful in the future. Knowing his situation he chose the most notorious coach in track and the behaviours that went along with it.

Everyone knows i'm a massive fan of TBO and have much sympathy for her missed tests situation but she was rightly banned and if she ever tests positive for a steroid they can throw the book at her as far as i'm concerned. The same stands for Justin Gatlin and anyone else in their situation, if you inadvertently get sanctioned once you better make sure you never chose the PED route in the future as you know what will happen.

No matter the rights and wrongs of amphetamine use, not signing he right forms, being badly advised etc etc it is all irrelevant to the choice he made 5 years later being fully aware of the consequences.


Prior to joining him was Trevor Graham known as the coach of drug cheats?

In a similar way does Christine Ohuruoghu not deserve more criticism for having a coach who has other doping banned athletes?

While I'm convinced Gatlin is a drug cheat, he is also one of those cases where there is a small percentage of doubt in me that accepts it is perfectly possible he could have been that stupid. Don't get me wrong I wish Gatlin was banned for longer, more of his record wiped off the stats sheet and he was gone now, however given humans are flawed, stupid and can be stitched up I always accept such cases must be given due process to be examined and the individual circumstances looked at.
eldanielfire
 
Posts: 1316
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:07 am

Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby lionelp1 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:27 am

mump boy wrote:
gh wrote:of course you do.... if you accept it as a fraud (which it was), then there is zero grounds for the life ban you seem to think he should have had. (without getting into whether or not one believes that even a first-time offense should draw life, but that's a different kettle of fish)


He tested positive and accepted whatever sanction was imposed with the understanding that it counted as a first failure and any subsequent ones would mean a life ban, I honestly don't care about the minutiae. There are lots of athletes in the same circumstances who have minor bans for stimulants, recreational drugs etc etc. It's a lesson and you move on ad be more careful in the future. Knowing his situation he chose the most notorious coach in track and the behaviours that went along with it.

Everyone knows i'm a massive fan of TBO and have much sympathy for her missed tests situation but she was rightly banned and if she ever tests positive for a steroid they can throw the book at her as far as i'm concerned. The same stands for Justin Gatlin and anyone else in their situation, if you inadvertently get sanctioned once you better make sure you never chose the PED route in the future as you know what will happen.

No matter the rights and wrongs of amphetamine use, not signing he right forms, being badly advised etc etc it is all irrelevant to the choice he made 5 years later being fully aware of the consequences.


I agree with Mumps post heartily. For me the absolute minimum punishment for Gatlin should have been 8 years. The fact is that the due process stuff is as often as not a pile of "fancy dancing" by lawyers for whom I have a healthy scepticism, bordering on contempt.We have no right to hide behind naivety, once we grow up

I do not believe the treatment Gatlin received after his second offense was unrelated to his status as an OG champion.

Not quite clear what "civilised nations " definition is and but that statement and other comments on this thread are "red herrings"; especially the usual veiled or open attack on Ohuruogu who was foolish and rightly punished( I have not ever heard of any USA athlete who has broken the rule about 3 missed tests amongst such a large number of athletes!), but in no way can be compared to the warning issued by IAAF followed by further cheating on the part of Gatlin..

All the stuff one reads about other peoples mistakes, or intent or "co-operated" with the appropriate athletics authorities is "bull" for me.
lionelp1
 
Posts: 281
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:48 am

Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby Flumpy » Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:12 am

eldanielfire wrote:
Prior to joining him was Trevor Graham known as the coach of drug cheats?


I don't know when Gatlin joined him but by the time he was busted for a 2nd time everybody knew Graham as the coach of drug cheats.

eldanielfire wrote:In a similar way does Christine Ohuruoghu not deserve more criticism for having a coach who has other doping banned athletes?


That's like comparing Marion Jones to Bernice Williams.
Last edited by Flumpy on Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
Flumpy
 
Posts: 3899
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby Flumpy » Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:19 am

lionelp1 wrote:I have not ever heard of any USA athlete who has broken the rule about 3 missed tests amongst such a large number of athletes!)


That's because any US athlete in the same position would be called and given notice so they had time to switch urine before going back to do the test.
Flumpy
 
Posts: 3899
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby mump boy » Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:37 am

Prior to joining him was Trevor Graham known as the coach of drug cheats?


YES his athletes has been failing tests since 2000 and the Balco scandal which he was up to his neck in was from 03'/04 Gatlin was one of the last of his athletes to be caught.

In a similar way does Christine Ohuruoghu not deserve more criticism for having a coach who has other doping banned athletes?


Treveor GRaham had at least 8 athletes banned for drugs as well as tons of other evidence and testimony against him, including him being the one who sent a syringe of 'the clear' to authorities to implicate Conte. Lloyd, has one who was banned in very dubious circumstances http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callum_Priestley there is absolutely no comparison so stop trying to make one.
mump boy
 
Posts: 5636
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: saaaaaarf london

Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby HopStepJump » Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:37 am

Flumpy wrote:
lionelp1 wrote:I have not ever heard of any USA athlete who has broken the rule about 3 missed tests amongst such a large number of athletes!)


That's because any US athlete in the same position would be called and given notice so they had time to switch urine before going back to do the test.


Or maybe keeping testers informed as to your whereabouts isn't really all that difficult, especially when your livelihood depends upon it.
HopStepJump
 
Posts: 113
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 1:19 pm
Location: Maryland

Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby JumboElliott » Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:42 am

Why do you continuously make excuses for Ottey and Ohuruogu, but take such a hard line on other dopers, mump?
JumboElliott
 
Posts: 2114
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:46 am

Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby Flumpy » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:01 am

HopStepJump wrote:
Flumpy wrote:
lionelp1 wrote:I have not ever heard of any USA athlete who has broken the rule about 3 missed tests amongst such a large number of athletes!)


That's because any US athlete in the same position would be called and given notice so they had time to switch urine before going back to do the test.


Or maybe keeping testers informed as to your whereabouts isn't really all that difficult, especially when your livelihood depends upon it.


They are different systems. I'm pretty certain that in the US if a tester turns up and the athlete is not there they are called and given an hour to arrive. That doesn't happen in the UK.
Flumpy
 
Posts: 3899
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby mump boy » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:12 am

JumboElliott wrote:Why do you continuously make excuses for Ottey and Ohuruogu, but take such a hard line on other dopers, mump?


Firstly and formost because neither then have ever tested positive but they are TOTALLY different cases

I've never made an excuse for Merlene, there's nothing to excuse. I've never said i agree with what officially didn't happen. I admit i have a blind spot for Merlene, she was my favourite athlete from around 1985, I LOVE her. The glamour, the drama, the wins the loses. I'm a gay and she tragic diva like Judy Garland. I can't give up on 15 years of obsession because she officially didn't fail a test. It's as if Flump got prosecuted for murder and got off on a technicality, i wouldn't approve but i'd still love him. The other thing in Merlene's favour is that her 'failed' test was for Nandrolone, nobody got to the bottom of it but there was definitely something odd about the spate of Nadrolone positives in the late 90's.If she had been banned then of course i would have to put personal feelings aside and no matter i could no longer hold her in such reverence. I don't pretend this is a consistant position but it absolutely consistant with this boards rules that you are innocent unless convicted of an offence.

As for TBO without going into the whole sorry saga, she never tested positive, was caught out by a new system that none of the athletes properly understood, there were loads of athletes on 2 missed tests and she was the unlucky one who got to 3 first. It could quite easily have been Becky Lynn or Mark Lewis Francis who had publically stated that they were on 2. One of MLF's was because his doorbell was broken so he didn't hear the testers and they won't phone to let you know they're waiting. At the time we had a system that was the most prohibitive in the world and Christine's mistake was the catalyst for all the other athletes to take it seriously and the authorities to actually make sure everyone is fully aware of the procedures not just sending out a letter and hoping that everyone has read it. There haven't been 3 missed tests since

Of course my opinion on this matter is coloured by the fact i come from the UK if she had been from BLR, TUR or US i probably would feel very differently.
mump boy
 
Posts: 5636
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: saaaaaarf london

Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby batonless relay » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:13 am

Flumpy wrote:
HopStepJump wrote:
Flumpy wrote:
lionelp1 wrote:I have not ever heard of any USA athlete who has broken the rule about 3 missed tests amongst such a large number of athletes!)


That's because any US athlete in the same position would be called and given notice so they had time to switch urine before going back to do the test.


Or maybe keeping testers informed as to your whereabouts isn't really all that difficult, especially when your livelihood depends upon it.


They are different systems. I'm pretty certain that in the US if a tester turns up and the athlete is not there they are called and given an hour to arrive. That doesn't happen in the UK.

All cheats have an excuse but it tells us nothing of why they really missed the tests. It is at least possible that she missed the tests because she felt that she would test positive. No different than other athletes who purposely dodge tests.
batonless relay
 
Posts: 700
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:40 am

Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby batonless relay » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:18 am

mump boy wrote:Of course my opinion on this matter is coloured by the fact i come from the UK if she had been from BLR, TUR or US i probably would feel very differently.

Thanks for that honest admission. However, you might need to read gh's comments on the Ottey affair and her getting off on the one of the most egregious of technicalities (debatable if more so than Yegorova).
batonless relay
 
Posts: 700
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:40 am

Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby HopStepJump » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:19 am

Flumpy wrote:
HopStepJump wrote:
Flumpy wrote:
lionelp1 wrote:I have not ever heard of any USA athlete who has broken the rule about 3 missed tests amongst such a large number of athletes!)


That's because any US athlete in the same position would be called and given notice so they had time to switch urine before going back to do the test.


Or maybe keeping testers informed as to your whereabouts isn't really all that difficult, especially when your livelihood depends upon it.


They are different systems. I'm pretty certain that in the US if a tester turns up and the athlete is not there they are called and given an hour to arrive. That doesn't happen in the UK.


Well, you encouraged me to go check. I found this on USADA's site.

http://www.usada.org/whereabouts/

The way I read it, the athlete is responsible for being at the location for the entire 60-minute window. I don't see any leeway in that hour or where they would be given a chance to show up if they weren't there. At any rate, it shouldn't be too hard to comply with this for any athlete.
HopStepJump
 
Posts: 113
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 1:19 pm
Location: Maryland

Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby peach77 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:39 am

batonless relay wrote:Thanks for that honest admission. However, you might need to read gh's comments on the Ottey affair and her getting off on the one of the most egregious of technicalities (debatable if more so than Yegorova).


The thing is with the whole "Ottey" affair, is what mump explained earlier about the spate of nandrolone positives. Don't get me wrong, I truly believe she tested positive and I believe the IAAF letting her off was more about "who" she was than what actually happened- a total technicality. But I do not "swallow" (excuse the pun) the spate of nandrolone positives in that era- there appeared to be a definite link to something fishy going on at the time, what with the people who were testing positive and the circumstances. Nandrolone was one of the cheapest, easiest to detect drugs, athletes such as Christie who had "retired" and asked to be put back on the testing register for a one off race were testing positive for it- ridiculous he should attempt to taint his legacy for that. Not to mention that out of all the pre-random drug testing era top top sprinters, Ottey (along with Torrence, not counting the ageing Ashford) were about the only ones who didn't retire and maintained the same level of performance and were regular competitors on the circuit at a time when that didn't suggest someone who was a doper.

For those reasons alone, I treat Ottey's "positive" with serious suspicion...
peach77
 
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:26 am

Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby norunner » Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:25 am

HopStepJump wrote:Or maybe keeping testers informed as to your whereabouts isn't really all that difficult, especially when your livelihood depends upon it.
I often wondered about that. How do you input your current whereabouts in countries/cities without street names? I have been to Lilongwe/Malawi, so i know how difficult it is to navigate a city without street names and i know there are others like it around the world, Tokyo the biggest among them. So how does the control system work in places like these?
norunner
 
Posts: 1269
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2012 12:21 pm

Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby mump boy » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:10 am

batonless relay wrote:
mump boy wrote:Of course my opinion on this matter is coloured by the fact i come from the UK if she had been from BLR, TUR or US i probably would feel very differently.

Thanks for that honest admission. However, you might need to read gh's comments on the Ottey affair and her getting off on the one of the most egregious of technicalities (debatable if more so than Yegorova).


I've read it, i understand the situation, I am still unashamedly a MASSIVE fan of The Queen. I've never defended her, it doesn't really make any difference

"It's beyond my control'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjUmvHBgHr0
It's
mump boy
 
Posts: 5636
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: saaaaaarf london

Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby mump boy » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:21 am

HopStepJump wrote: At any rate, it shouldn't be too hard to comply with this for any athlete.


Which is why no one has missed 3 since but it took the massive publicity surrounding TBO for everyone else to be fully aware of the new, strict procedures.

I can assure you there would have been a far more sympathetic coverage from the media if it had been Becky Lynn who's missed them than the incredibly ill advised, inarticulate (at the time) Ohorougu
mump boy
 
Posts: 5636
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: saaaaaarf london

Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby mump boy » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:24 am

peach77 wrote:
batonless relay wrote:Thanks for that honest admission. However, you might need to read gh's comments on the Ottey affair and her getting off on the one of the most egregious of technicalities (debatable if more so than Yegorova).


The thing is with the whole "Ottey" affair, is what mump explained earlier about the spate of nandrolone positives. Don't get me wrong, I truly believe she tested positive and I believe the IAAF letting her off was more about "who" she was than what actually happened- a total technicality. But I do not "swallow" (excuse the pun) the spate of nandrolone positives in that era- there appeared to be a definite link to something fishy going on at the time, what with the people who were testing positive and the circumstances. Nandrolone was one of the cheapest, easiest to detect drugs, athletes such as Christie who had "retired" and asked to be put back on the testing register for a one off race were testing positive for it- ridiculous he should attempt to taint his legacy for that. Not to mention that out of all the pre-random drug testing era top top sprinters, Ottey (along with Torrence, not counting the ageing Ashford) were about the only ones who didn't retire and maintained the same level of performance and were regular competitors on the circuit at a time when that didn't suggest someone who was a doper.

For those reasons alone, I treat Ottey's "positive" with serious suspicion...


All of this ^^

I'm very consistent on Nandrolone positives, if Gatlin had tested positive between 98'-01 i'd be giving him the benefit of he doubt as well.
mump boy
 
Posts: 5636
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: saaaaaarf london

Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby Flumpy » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:43 am

batonless relay wrote:All cheats have an excuse but it tells us nothing of why they really missed the tests. It is at least possible that she missed the tests because she felt that she would test positive. No different than other athletes who purposely dodge tests.


No it isn't. Please go and read the facts about what happened. There is no suggestion that she 'purposefully dodged tests' which of course is impossible to do when you don't know they're coming.

At least I try to learn about cases before I offer opinions.

Pead ShaunP's post halfway down this page............

http://mb.trackandfieldnews.com/discuss ... ine#383986
Flumpy
 
Posts: 3899
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby Flumpy » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:46 am

norunner wrote: So how does the control system work in places like these?


I don't think it does.
Flumpy
 
Posts: 3899
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby Flumpy » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:51 am

HopStepJump wrote:
Well, you encouraged me to go check. I found this on USADA's site.

http://www.usada.org/whereabouts/

The way I read it, the athlete is responsible for being at the location for the entire 60-minute window. I don't see any leeway in that hour or where they would be given a chance to show up if they weren't there. At any rate, it shouldn't be too hard to comply with this for any athlete.


That may be the case now but if so it's a relatively recent thing.

At the time of TBO's missed tests The rules were definitely different in the UK from the US. The general cry on this forum tended to be that she had obviously missed the tests on purpose or else she would have simply returned when called. We kept having to explain that is she was American she could have done so, but was not given that chance in the UK.

If the rules have since been tightened up in the US then that's a very good thing.
Flumpy
 
Posts: 3899
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

PreviousNext

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: smc and 7 guests