Çakır-Alptekin positive? [second scandal erupts]


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Çakır-Alptekin positive? [second scandal erupts]

Postby nevetsllim » Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:48 am

http://www.nzweek.com/sport/turkish-oly ... ive-55927/

Perhaps not the most authoritative source but it sounds like it's been confirmed by WADA.
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Re: Cakir-Alptekin positive?

Postby mump boy » Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:37 am

I'm shocked i tell you SHOCKED :shock: :shock: :roll:
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Re: Cakir-Alptekin positive?

Postby tandfman » Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:52 am

nevetsllim wrote:http://www.nzweek.com/sport/turkish-olympic-champion-cakir-alptekin-dopes-positive-55927/

Perhaps not the most authoritative source but it sounds like it's been confirmed by WADA.

Nothing on the WADA website, but Xinhua is a reputable news source, and there's no reason to think that the Turkish media would make up something like that.
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Re: Cakir-Alptekin positive?

Postby donley2 » Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:30 am

Some days I actually imagine (perhaps very naively) that we are actually cleaning up this sport every so slightly.
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Re: Cakir-Alptekin positive?

Postby Daisy » Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:48 am

AW running with the story too.
Turkish Olympic gold medallist Asli Cakir Alptekin named as one of eight athletes to have returned positive doping tests

http://www.athleticsweekly.com/news/lon ... wCmwTk4.99

Are the other seven known?
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Re: Cakir-Alptekin positive?

Postby Hil-da » Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:55 am

Daisy wrote:AW running with the story too.
Turkish Olympic gold medallist Asli Cakir Alptekin named as one of eight athletes to have returned positive doping tests

http://www.athleticsweekly.com/news/lon ... wCmwTk4.99

Are the other seven known?

http://www.cnnturk.com/2013/spor/03/22/ ... index.html
Three named so far - all big names
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Re: Cakir-Alptekin positive?

Postby Master Po » Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:02 am

So, were this to be confirmed, medals would shift to Bulut, Jamal, Tomashova. (But I know that's getting ahead of the story.)
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Re: Cakir-Alptekin positive?

Postby nevetsllim » Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:10 am

http://www.cnnturk.com/2013/spor/03/22/ ... index.html

According to this source, doping was detected under the biological passport system. That should mean Cakir gets stripped of her title as they normally back-track it a few years. Alemitu Bekele, for example, was recently caught out by the passport system and all of her results from the outdoor season in 2009 were annulled.

Although I can't say I would be hugely enamoured by the new 1-2-3 if she gets stripped of her gold.
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Re: Cakir-Alptekin positive?

Postby JumboElliott » Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:10 am

I hope they don't reassign the medals.
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Re: Cakir-Alptekin positive?

Postby gh » Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:14 am

Hil-da wrote:
Daisy wrote:AW running with the story too.
Turkish Olympic gold medallist Asli Cakir Alptekin named as one of eight athletes to have returned positive doping tests

http://www.athleticsweekly.com/news/lon ... wCmwTk4.99

Are the other seven known?

http://www.cnnturk.com/2013/spor/03/22/ ... index.html
Three named so far - all big names


Specifically (in case your Turkish is bad :mrgreen: ) hurdler Nevin Yanıt & steepler Gülcan Mıngır...
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby JumboElliott » Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:21 am

So two of the three Turkish women who advanced to the final of their event?
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby lionelp1 » Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:38 am

Will members of the IOC feel good about Istanbul's candidacy in September. :(
Reckon that the Tokyo and Madrid people are not too unhappy; why do the Turks cheat with such determanation.?
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby JumboElliott » Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:41 am

They do it because it was hard to catch the offenders. If people are regularly caught and swiftly brought to justice, anti-doping might just be worth the effort.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby aaronk » Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:46 am

mump boy wrote:I'm shocked i tell you SHOCKED :shock: :shock: :roll:


I nominate mump boy's response for the.....

Looking at Tragedy with a Smile Award!!

LOL
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Re: Cakir-Alptekin positive?

Postby Master Po » Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:08 am

JumboElliott wrote:I hope they don't reassign the medals.


This of course is something on which reasonable people can disagree, and I appreciate your perspective. In part, I share it, but I have always felt that part of the price of engaging in this effort to catch cheaters is that medals should be reassigned, and if a reassigned medal goes to a disreputable athlete, so be it.

And this possible outcome is part of the price of the terms on which the campaign against cheaters is being waged, i.e., it's possible for a disreputable athlete to return to championship competition and both take a spot in a final away from someone else, and to earn a medal. Such an athlete could well earn that medal in the "open" competition, and having been in the competition thus should be granted a medal that would come from any post-competition reassignment.

Let me be clear: By "disreputable," I mean to refer to any athlete who has served a serious (e.g., two year) suspension, not any athlete for whom I may have unfounded suspicions. I wish such disreputable athletes were never in championship competition again after their suspensions, but that's the way it goes. The two-year ban for a first serious offense is the best arrangement the powers that be could arrive at. I have to accept that such athletes may return, and thus may claim medals.

But, as noted, this business of medal reassignment is something I would expect the many reasonable people on here to disgree on, and I don't feel great about the way it plays out in any of these scenarios, other than seeing at least some cheaters get caught and disqualified.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby batonless relay » Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:18 am

Master Po, I completely agree. There is NEVER a scenario under which medals should not be assigned (assuming everyone in a final isn't positive, of course), imo. (yes, I believe the IOC owes Thanou a medal)
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby JumboElliott » Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:26 am

I think this is a somewhat exceptional circumstance.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby nevetsllim » Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:33 am

The IAAF tweeted they haven't confirmed the violations but at the same time, they're not denying it either. It just seems way too uncontrived to believe it's been made up, particularly when it's all over the press in Turkey.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby batonless relay » Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:37 am

JumboElliott wrote:I think this is a somewhat exceptional circumstance.

Disagree. The rules need to be followed; IOC needs to stop making up rules on the fly to suit the IOC.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby JumboElliott » Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:38 am

Isn't the IAAF usually the last organization to comment on bans because of appeals and whatnot?
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby JumboElliott » Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:50 am

batonless relay wrote:Disagree. The rules need to be followed; IOC needs to stop making up rules on the fly to suit the IOC.


Is there a rule?

Should Ekaterini Thanou get Marion Jones' Sydney gold medal?
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby 26mi235 » Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:52 am

People complain about doping with one of the elements that others get cheated. If they do not reassign medals in all cases where the athlete did not (later) get a primary (>6 months) ban then they just perpetuate the cheating.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby pakillo » Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:53 am

This would mean that almost all Turkish high profile T&F athletes were on doping, including ex-Ethiopian and ex-South African...
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby gh » Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:57 am

nevetsllim wrote:The IAAF tweeted they haven't confirmed the violations but at the same time, they're not denying it either. It just seems way too uncontrived to believe it's been made up, particularly when it's all over the press in Turkey.


This is in keeping with normal IAAF policy that we've seen multiple times in the past. Since the case wouldn't yet be under their jurisdiction, they adopt a hands-off stance.

It's a smart protocol; if it's not your action, why risk polluting the case by making uninformed statements?
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby Jon » Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:02 am

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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby batonless relay » Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:03 am

JumboElliott wrote:
batonless relay wrote:Disagree. The rules need to be followed; IOC needs to stop making up rules on the fly to suit the IOC.


Is there a rule?

Should Ekaterini Thanou get Marion Jones' Sydney gold medal?

Ekaterini Thanou should ABSOLUTELY get Marion Jones' Sydney medal.

The IOC could have retested all the samples; they also could have created a LONGER window than 8 years to review samples. What is fact is that Thanou passed the same tests that all the other athletes did. How does the IOC allow Justin Gatlin to keep his medal from 2004 when he tested positive 2 year later and not let Thanou receive hers? Also, how does the IOC allow Kederis to keep his medal when he was punished for the same thing as Thanou? If the IOC is going to reverse their decision and strip Gatlin and Kederis of medals because they tested positive/missed tests later then I would have no argument with not giving Thanou the medal, but as it stands it's a travesty. (by that rule, they would also have to go back and get Linford Christie's medal)
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby JumboElliott » Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:07 am

Taking away medals from people who already have them is completely different than assigning them to another athlete. The standard of proof should be much different.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby batonless relay » Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:22 am

JumboElliott wrote:Taking away medals from people who already have them is completely different than assigning them to another athlete. The standard of proof should be much different.

Again, I disagree. I don't make a distinction. Once an athlete has been disqualified it goes to the next athlete. Period. Yes, this may lead to some uncomfortable assignments, but it is the right thing to do.

FWIW, the IAAF agrees with me.
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Cakir-Alptekin positive?

Postby bobguild76 » Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:04 am

Master Po wrote:
JumboElliott wrote:I hope they don't reassign the medals.


This of course is something on which reasonable people can disagree, and I appreciate your perspective. In part, I share it, but I have always felt that part of the price of engaging in this effort to catch cheaters is that medals should be reassigned, and if a reassigned medal goes to a disreputable athlete, so be it.

...


Well said Master Po. There is certainly plenty of room for disagreement regarding the sanctions for cheaters. But I agree that, when an athlete is sanctioned, if the period of drug use includes an Olympics or WC, the medals should be reassigned, and the listed results changed to remove the name of the athlete. No way they should be referred to as an Olympic or WC medalist, nor should they keep the medal.

If the reassignment of the medals means that someone gets a medal, who has been previously sanctioned, but is now competing in accordance with the rules and tests clean, so be it. It may be distasteful to some to see them get the medal, but until we change the rules, that is how it should be.

If the proven drug use does not reach back to a previous Olympics or WC, then the medals should remain. I admit though, if the athlete has served a previous sentence for drug use, it is hard to imagine their performance between sanctions didn't continue to benefit from said drug use. A challenging subject, to be sure.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby Flumpy » Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:05 am

How dare you sully the name of our great Turkish heroines!!!

This is clearly a racist plot cooked up by Tokyo and Madrid to derail Turkey's superior Olympic bid.

By the sword of Kemal Ataturk I vow to clear their names.

Or some such nonsense :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Cakir-Alptekin positive?

Postby gh » Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:17 am

tandfman wrote:
nevetsllim wrote:http://www.nzweek.com/sport/turkish-olympic-champion-cakir-alptekin-dopes-positive-55927/

Perhaps not the most authoritative source but it sounds like it's been confirmed by WADA.

Nothing on the WADA website, but Xinhua is a reputable news source, and there's no reason to think that the Turkish media would make up something like that.


as Jon Mulkeen pointed out on our Facebook page, WADA has now issued a statement that they have not made any releases to the press regards the subject.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby vencio2 » Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:49 am

This thread has made my day.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby mump boy » Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:06 pm

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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby kuha » Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:29 pm

aaronk wrote:
mump boy wrote:I'm shocked i tell you SHOCKED :shock: :shock: :roll:


I nominate mump boy's response for the.....

Looking at Tragedy with a Smile Award!!

LOL


That wonderful concept:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schadenfreude
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby JumboElliott » Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:41 pm

The women's 1500 was a farce last year.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby mump boy » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:08 pm

JumboElliott wrote:The women's 1500 was a farce last year.


Has been most of this century
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby norunner » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:57 pm

mump boy wrote:
JumboElliott wrote:The women's 1500 was a farce last year.


Has been most of this century
Considering all the chinese fun of the 90s and the fact that ALL times below 3.55 come from the last century you really have to include at least the last 25 years of last century too.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby aaronk » Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:04 pm

norunner wrote:
mump boy wrote:
JumboElliott wrote:The women's 1500 was a farce last year.


Has been most of this century
Considering all the chinese fun of the 90s and the fact that ALL times below 3.55 come from the last century you really have to include at least the last 25 years of last century too.


Maybe THAT'S why they went out in 75 first lap, and 2:23 at 800!
They didn't want to draw suspicion upon themselves! :P

(Maybe those USATF indoor milers (2:55 first 800) better start packin' their bags!! :wink: )
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby mump boy » Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:17 pm

norunner wrote:
mump boy wrote:
JumboElliott wrote:The women's 1500 was a farce last year.


Has been most of this century
Considering all the chinese fun of the 90s and the fact that ALL times below 3.55 come from the last century you really have to include at least the last 25 years of last century too.


Fair point but 2005 was a surely the nadir :(
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby nevetsllim » Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:19 pm

aaronk wrote:
norunner wrote:
mump boy wrote:
JumboElliott wrote:The women's 1500 was a farce last year.


Has been most of this century
Considering all the chinese fun of the 90s and the fact that ALL times below 3.55 come from the last century you really have to include at least the last 25 years of last century too.


Maybe THAT'S why they went out in 75 first lap, and 2:23 at 800!
They didn't want to draw suspicion upon themselves! :P


But they closed with a 57sec final lap at the European Champs and Olympic Games. Nothing suspicious there. :evil:

Cakir and Yanit have been caught out under the biological passport system but Bulut, as for now, hasn't. But seeing as she emerged from obscurity over the summer last year (pre-2012 PBs were 4:18 1500m and 10:13.73), how long has hers been tracked for? While Cakir and Yanit were around for a few years and operating at a good level, I can't imagine Bulut was on anyone's radar before 2012 and it seems like WADA/IAAF need a fairly large time-range to detect abnormal trends. I don't know too much about how it works but it seems to be working!
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