Indoor and Outdoor: Separate Seasons


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Indoor and Outdoor: Separate Seasons

Postby aaronk » Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:45 am

Don't know if this has been a previous subject on the T&FN MB.
But for decades, this has been a Top Tier pet peeve of mine about my favorite magazine.
Question: Should T&FN (and other media) join together indoor and outdoor marks on their lists?
My reply?
Absolutely NOT!!
And here's why.....

1. No matter how brief (or even irrelevant) the indoor season in T&F has become (especially in the US!!), most media still refer to it as the "indoor season", and marks made within it "indoor" marks.

2. The events are not all the same. There is no 60 or 60H or 35 lb WT toss outdoors. (Or at least they're not regular events!!) Rarely is a 10K or a marathon or a steeplechase run indoors!! Except in huge indoor arenas, you almost never see a JT, DT, or HT indoors! Indoor multi's are the Hept (men) and Pent (women). Outdoors it's the Dec and the Hept!

3. Weather doesn't affect indoor marks, as they often do outdoor marks. And it's not just in sprint/jump events. A distance race run in a torrential rain or with heavy winds is greatly affected!!

4. When the first outdoor lists are published, they include MANY indoor marks. As the outdoor season progresses, these indoor marks start to be replaced by outdoor marks, but NOT all of them. Thus, at the end of the outdoor season, you might see "X" athlete's best 2012 mark as being his/her INDOOR best!!! But.....what was this person's OUTDOOR best?? Unless you've followed the season on a daily basis, you might not know what they did outdoors!!

5. They are called "indoor season" and "outdoor season" for a reason!! If they were meant to be conjoined, they would not be called those terms. It would just be labeled "the 2012 T&F season", with "in" and "out' eliminated!!

6. Take Sergey Bubka's PV records. His indoor mark is one-quarter inch better than his outdoor mark--20-2 to 20-1 and 3/4. He got those WR's in two different years, 1993 and 1994. But what if both had happened in the same year? Unless you followed his OUTdoor season that year, you might never know he'd come within a quarter-inch of his best OUTdoors!! All you'd have would be his 20-2 INdoor mark to go by!!

I realize the T&FN method of doing lists is THE way these lists are seen, and accepted.
I realize I'm a "lone voice in the wilderness" about this.
So be it!!
But it just doesn't make sense to still have an "INDOOR SEASON" and then put THAT season's marks on an OUTDOOR list!!

It would be akin to, in baseball, combining records made during the Exhibition season with Regular season records. (Same goes for combining Regular season with POST-season records!!) It's just not done!! They're SEPARATE seasons.....or separate PARTS of the same season!!

As the new INDOOR T&F season is upon us, let's not make the T&F record book any MORE complex than it already is!
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Re: Indoor and Outdoor: Separate Seasons

Postby aaronk » Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:40 pm

On the men's AOY thread today, "dbirds" said (paraphrased) that Eaton's indoor Hept WR should have been considered in the outdoor AOY voting.
"gh" said, as expected, (paraphrased) that indoor marks are NOT considered when voting for the outdoor AOY!!

As it should be......as long as you (generic "you") ALSO see the indoor season as SEPARATE FROM the outdoor season!!

However, as I state above, at least as far as the lists of marks go, it clearly is NOT!!

Isn't that a case of wanting to "have your cake...and eat it too"??
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Re: Indoor and Outdoor: Separate Seasons

Postby marknhj » Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:52 am

aaronk wrote:6. Take Sergey Bubka's PV records. His indoor mark is one-quarter inch better than his outdoor mark--20-2 to 20-1 and 3/4.


If 1cm = 1/4", the men's high jump WR would be 5' 1 1/4". But at least it would be outdooors!
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Re: Indoor and Outdoor: Separate Seasons

Postby aaronk » Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:12 am

1. No matter how brief (or even irrelevant) the indoor season in T&F has become (especially in the US!!), most media still refer to it as the "indoor season", and marks made within it "indoor" marks!!



4. When the first outdoor lists are published, they include MANY indoor marks. As the outdoor season progresses, these indoor marks start to be replaced by outdoor marks, but NOT all of them. Thus, at the end of the outdoor season, you might see "X" athlete's best 2012 mark as being his/her INDOOR best!!! But.....what was this person's OUTDOOR best?? Unless you've followed the season on a daily basis, you might not know what they did outdoors!!

5. They are called "indoor season" and "outdoor season" for a reason!! If they were meant to be conjoined, they would not be called those terms. It would just be labeled "the 2012 T&F season", with "in" and "out' eliminated!!

6. Take Sergey Bubka's PV records. His indoor mark is one-quarter inch better than his outdoor mark--20-2 to 20-1 and 3/4. He got those WR's in two different years, 1993 and 1994. But what if both had happened in the same year? Unless you followed his OUTdoor season that year, you might never know he'd come within a quarter-inch of his best OUTdoors!! All you'd have would be his 20-2 INdoor mark to go by!!


But it just doesn't make sense to still have an "INDOOR SEASON" and then put THAT season's marks on an OUTDOOR list!!
[/quote]

Check out the new "Yearly Leaders" marks for 2013 recently put up.
Now look closely.
MOST of what you see are INDOOR marks!!
And at least ONE of those marks was made on an OVERSIZE track!!
A DOUBLE SIN!!

Now, I understand this new list is NOT called an "OUTDOOR list", but just the "yearly" list.
But reread what I wrote in my initial post here!!
If you're going to call what's run INDOORS as an "indoor" mark/record, then it should NOT be part of any OUTDOOR list!!
(Just as you would not combine baseball's exhibition season records with regular season!!)
And especially NO oversize track marks.
That's like including windy marks, or downhill marathon course marks, on lists.
Windy marks are SEPARATED from non-windy marks.

Indoor marks should be SEPARATED from outdoor marks!!

Case closed!! :x
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Re: Indoor and Outdoor: Separate Seasons

Postby Marlow » Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:32 am

aaronk wrote:Indoor marks should be SEPARATED from outdoor marks!!
Case closed!!

Sorry, but the case has already gotten thrown out of court. The way T&FN does it now is entirely logical and therefore correct. Carry an i-mark on the list until such time time as it is superseded.
Next case?
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Re: Indoor and Outdoor: Separate Seasons

Postby aaronk » Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:49 am

Marlow wrote:
aaronk wrote:Indoor marks should be SEPARATED from outdoor marks!!
Case closed!!

Sorry, but the case has already gotten thrown out of court. The way T&FN does it now is entirely logical and therefore correct. Carry an i-mark on the list until such time time as it is superseded.
Next case?


I'm probably the ONLY person on this board, and who thinks of himself as a "knowledgeable" track fan, who sees no sense whatsoever in your (and T&FN's) conclusion.

They are two separate seasons!
And just one (hypothetical) example is necessary for me to explain my POV.

Casual track fan "John" loves T&F, but only checks the lists of best marks about 4 times a year.
At the end of the indoor season, he sees the final INDOOR list....which contains ONLY indoor marks for that year.

Athlete "Bob", a high school senior, broke Alan Webb's INDOOR mile (and 1500) record, times of 3:42.00 and 3:59.00.
Casual fan "John" sees these new records, and hopes that "Bob" runs a sub-4:00 OUTDOORS as well!!

But "Bob" runs "only" 3:42.50 and 3:59.50 outdoors.
Sub-4:00, yes, but NOT better than his INDOOR time.

So, on T&FN's yearly HS list, "John" sees "Bob's" 3:59.00 INDOOR mark listed, but NOT his OUTDOOR sub-4:00!!
So "John" is disappointed, thinking that "Bob" did NOT break 4:00 outdoors!!

I know, it's ludicrous to think a track fan wouldn't KNOW about "Bob's" outdoor sub-4:00.
But IF he depended ONLY on T&FN's lists, he would NOT know of it!!

I think....and I'm probably the ONLY one here who does......that this "case" needs to be brought before a higher court!! :)
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Re: Indoor and Outdoor: Separate Seasons

Postby Marlow » Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:54 am

aaronk wrote:I'm probably the ONLY person on this board, and who thinks of himself as a "knowledgeable" track fan, who sees no sense whatsoever in your (and T&FN's) conclusion.

And that, my dear Aaron, is what those in the detective business call a 'clue' . . . :wink:
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Re: Indoor and Outdoor: Separate Seasons

Postby aaronk » Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:09 am

Marlow wrote:
aaronk wrote:I'm probably the ONLY person on this board, and who thinks of himself as a "knowledgeable" track fan, who sees no sense whatsoever in your (and T&FN's) conclusion.

And that, my dear Aaron, is what those in the detective business call a 'clue' . . . :wink:


Okay, I surrender!! :? (Sort of.)
But how about MODIFYING the lists.....rather than changing them the way I'd want?

An event sometimes will have TWO marks listed, one for sea level and one for altitude., the latter indicated by an "A".
Also, you'll sometimes see the best OVERALL collegiate mark, then next to the same event, you'll see the AMERICAN collegiate best, as indicated by "AmCol".

So how about, if an event's INdoor mark is better than the outdoor mark, putting BOTH marks next to that event. Both the better INdoor mark....AND the best (thus far) OUTdoor mark.....(indicated by an "O"!!).

That way EVERYONE is happy......sort of!! :P
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Re: Indoor and Outdoor: Separate Seasons

Postby 26mi235 » Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:00 am

One set of indoor marks is harder to get (essentially all running events) than outdoors. Citing as a best mark a 9:00 high school two mile when there a 8:30 mile indoors is misleading. Note that while T&FN puts an OT on a bunch of marks (i.e., semi-tainted) they consider those marks untainted in the context of out outdoors (well a 300m indoor track is tighter than a standard 400m track).

Other marks are generally comparable, such as the shot put (though typically thrown with a different type of ball; does that make a real difference???). The HJ is one where there are questions because some indoor environments seem 'overly' friendly.

Finally, is your concern the season that the mark is made in (we are now in the outdoor season, right?). If so, are marks made here "indoor" or "outdoor" marks? [hint, none of our meets at this point are held outdoors - since it is 18 degrees with a wind chill of zero at midday you can see why we are not doing things outdoors -- besides, the track has 8 inches of snow covering it. I makes it hard to mark that discus landing spot and running the mile with those mini-snows makes it really hard to go sub-4...]
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Re: Indoor and Outdoor: Separate Seasons

Postby Marlow » Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:02 am

aaronk wrote:So how about, if an event's INdoor mark is better than the outdoor mark, putting BOTH marks next to that event. Both the better INdoor mark....AND the best (thus far) OUTdoor mark.....(indicated by an "O"!!).
That way EVERYONE is happy......sort of!! :P

Except those who are actually going to have to do the extra work to keep track of that and include it in all lists . . .
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Re: Indoor and Outdoor: Separate Seasons

Postby 26mi235 » Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:25 am

The college rankings, not that they really matter, seem s little silly in that they do not include any of the information on the indoor season. I can see not using the Heptathlon marks for the Decathlon, but one someone runs a 3:55 mile indoors, it is more relevant than a 3:57 run ten months earlier.
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Re: Indoor and Outdoor: Separate Seasons

Postby Mighty Favog » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:45 am

26mi235 wrote:Other marks are generally comparable, such as the shot put (though typically thrown with a different type of ball; does that make a real difference???).
One thing that can make a real difference is the ring. If it's a wood platform that puts the thrower an inch higher than the landing area, that can make several inches difference in the distances thrown. I had a chat with some college throwers recently who told me about their favorite indoor venue, where the ring was about two inches higher than the landing area...
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Re: Indoor and Outdoor: Separate Seasons

Postby Marlow » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:20 am

Mighty Favog wrote:
26mi235 wrote:Other marks are generally comparable, such as the shot put (though typically thrown with a different type of ball; does that make a real difference???).
One thing that can make a real difference is the ring. If it's a wood platform that puts the thrower an inch higher than the landing area, that can make several inches difference in the distances thrown. I had a chat with some college throwers recently who told me about their favorite indoor venue, where the ring was about two inches higher than the landing area...

I ain't no rocket scientist, but if the ball is falling at 45 degrees (give or take), wouldn't a one inch high ring, equal a one inch addition to the throw? (he says, envisioning a right triangle with one inch sides (and a hypotenuse (irrelevant here) of 1.414 inches :D )?
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Re: Indoor and Outdoor: Separate Seasons

Postby 26mi235 » Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:31 pm

The ball gets launched at 7 feet/2.14m above the ground. The optimal path is not 45 degrees because of this but a bit less. Still the flight down likely makes the landing at least 50 degrees, so even less advantage.

In locations where they put a surface down (e.g., NCAAs had this), I would assume that the landing area is at the same level as the ring. Any thing else is probably not a legal mark.
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Re: Indoor and Outdoor: Separate Seasons

Postby lonewolf » Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:04 pm

Minute differences in elevation may create a theoretical difference in length of a throw or jump but, IMO, as a practical matter it is much ado about not much. Any difference is probably less than the variable accuracy of individual marks.

The SP set up at NCAA was from a 1" thick platform onto a 2" thick foam pad laid on a cement floor which, of course, compressed momentarily to virtually nil, leaving a rapidly shrinking dimple that the marker may mark at the exact near point to the ring,..or somewhere in the depression.

Similar problem in the horizontal jumps: dry sand sloughs, careless marker stabs the pin somewhere in the middle of the disturbed sand. A low pit may mathmatically produce a longer jump but it has to be extremely low to make a difference greater the the 1 cm measuring increment, which may be negated by indifferent marking and measuring.

Despite our good intentions, it is not an exact science.
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Re: Indoor and Outdoor: Separate Seasons

Postby highjumpfan » Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:21 pm

I have to believe that one day in the not too distant future, the technology will exist where the legal landing area will be essentially a giant light field and will instantly record when an object breaks that field. Then it will be an exact science.
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Re: Indoor and Outdoor: Separate Seasons

Postby gh » Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:27 pm

Mighty Favog wrote:
26mi235 wrote:Other marks are generally comparable, such as the shot put (though typically thrown with a different type of ball; does that make a real difference???).
One thing that can make a real difference is the ring. If it's a wood platform that puts the thrower an inch higher than the landing area, that can make several inches difference in the distances thrown. I had a chat with some college throwers recently who told me about their favorite indoor venue, where the ring was about two inches higher than the landing area...


if it's truly an elevated wood surface then the facility is illegal. I doubt that happens at major championship meets.
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Re: Indoor and Outdoor: Separate Seasons

Postby Marlow » Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:56 am

lonewolf wrote:it is not an exact science.

And we all have HORROR stories of what we've seen

LJ/TJ officials who are looking at a poorly raked pit,, trying to decide where the indention starts.
SP/HT officials put it in the wrong hole
DT officials who have no clue where it actually landed.
JT officials who, if it doesn't stick, have no clue where it landed.

I realize HS is worse than anywhere else (and it can get REALLY bad), but I have see this at college championship meets and even USATF. The OT, on the other hand, actually does have (in my experience, well, 5 of them) uniformly high standards of officiating!

I understand there's some Okie half-breed (ain't we all!) LJ official out there somewhere who's EXCELLENT! :wink:
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Re: Indoor and Outdoor: Separate Seasons

Postby Mighty Favog » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:11 am

Typical release angle in the shot is a bit less than 45 degrees from what studies I've found (42 degrees, give or take a bit), so an inch elevation would make a little over an inch difference in distance, not my previously stated "several". It's a much, much bigger difference in the long and triple jumps. Long jump takeoff angle is about 20 degrees (according to Boo Shexnayder when I asked him), so a one-inch vertical difference between takeoff and landing magnifies to several inches horizontally.

The point is that indoor facilities vary, outdoor facilities basically don't. I'm still all for combining indoor and outdoor marks into comprehensive lists but I realize that indoor competition isn't always a hindrance in the field events.
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Re: Indoor and Outdoor: Separate Seasons

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:28 am

Mighty Favog wrote:Typical release angle in the shot is a bit less than 45 degrees from what studies I've found (42 degrees, give or take a bit), so an inch elevation would make a little over an inch difference in distance, not my previously stated "several". It's a much, much bigger difference in the long and triple jumps. Long jump takeoff angle is about 20 degrees (according to Boo Shexnayder when I asked him), so a one-inch vertical difference between takeoff and landing magnifies to several inches horizontally.


Yes, a take off angle of 45 in the LJ would be something. Your vertical velocity would have to match the horizontal. Dyson calculated if you were running at the speed of a 10 flat 100y and took off at a 45 degree angle you would jump 56 feet and your center of gravity would rise 14 feet!
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Re: Indoor and Outdoor: Separate Seasons

Postby aaronk » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:51 am

And all this has to do with indoor and outdoor being separate seasons...how?? :wink:
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Re: Indoor and Outdoor: Separate Seasons

Postby 26mi235 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:14 am

Mighty Favog wrote:Typical release angle in the shot is a bit less than 45 degrees from what studies I've found (42 degrees, give or take a bit), so an inch elevation would make a little over an inch difference in distance, not my previously stated "several".


I think this is flawed. The parabola gives the same angle at the release height, 7 feet, not at the ground level. By the time it hits the ground the angle is steeper. Knowing that it is 42 degrees allows the calculation of the parabola - I am too busy getting ready to depart to do this but it is an easy task for JRM/Conor Dary etc.

I actually am surprised that the angle is 42 degrees because I would guess that the optimal angle is lower given the height of release, although the release angle also affects the height of release as well).

[Think of this problem: you are 1000 feet up and want to maximize the horizontal distance of your throw, what angle do you use throwing a baseball? Essentially 0 degrees (if it does not mess up your form, because the height you gain causes a steeper angle and the work put into getting the height provides little benefit, since it is already falling a long way.]
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Re: Indoor and Outdoor: Separate Seasons

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:33 pm

Dyson writes that for the shot, and say, a 60 foot throw, the optimum angle is less than 45 degrees, more like 41+, primarily because of gravity and the fact that the release height is about 6 feet above the ground and the landing point.
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Re: Indoor and Outdoor: Separate Seasons

Postby Pego » Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:04 pm

aaronk wrote:And all this has to do with indoor and outdoor being separate seasons...how?? :wink:


Nothing, but that scientific debate made the thread a lot more interesting :D .
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Re: Indoor and Outdoor: Separate Seasons

Postby gh » Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:16 pm

Mighty Favog wrote:Typical release angle in the shot is a bit less than 45 degrees from what studies I've found (42 degrees, give or take a bit), so an inch elevation would make a little over an inch difference in distance, not my previously stated "several". It's a much, much bigger difference in the long and triple jumps. Long jump takeoff angle is about 20 degrees (according to Boo Shexnayder when I asked him), so a one-inch vertical difference between takeoff and landing magnifies to several inches horizontally.

The point is that indoor facilities vary, outdoor facilities basically don't. I'm still all for combining indoor and outdoor marks into comprehensive lists but I realize that indoor competition isn't always a hindrance in the field events.


You've never seen an outdoor LJ/TJ pit that was inches low of fill in the sand department? Happens all the time.
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Re: Indoor and Outdoor: Separate Seasons

Postby Marlow » Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:49 pm

gh wrote:You've never seen an outdoor LJ/TJ pit that was inches low of fill in the sand department? Happens all the time.

I have VERY rarely seen the sand in a LJ pit that was level with the runway. Maybe the USATF/OT meets. Most colleges are at least 3" down. HSs can easily be 6". And we worry about .01 secs and .1 mps in the wind??!!
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Re: Indoor and Outdoor: Separate Seasons

Postby 26mi235 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:37 pm

gh wrote:You've never seen an outdoor LJ/TJ pit that was inches low of fill in the sand department? Happens all the time.


I went to help at a high school meet near me. At the LJ pit there was a tough close to a foot deep. I mentioned to the person running the event what the implications were and how to go about moving the sand around. They (a parent volunteer, I think) had never thought about it but when it was pointed out they went about diminishing the problem. However, they had an interesting conversation about fairness and what if some got the deeper pit.... I think we altered it at the end of a round.
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Re: Indoor and Outdoor: Separate Seasons

Postby lonewolf » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:09 pm

highjumpfan wrote:I have to believe that one day in the not too distant future, the technology will exist where the legal landing area will be essentially a giant light field and will instantly record when an object breaks that field. Then it will be an exact science.

Several years ago, an electrical engineering professor at a major university was raking the pit for me.. He said the technology existed to project an electronic blanket over the entire pit and take off area that would instantly measure the distance from last toe impression at take off to first impression in the sand, eliminating the take off board... minor problem: it is also susceptible to flying sand...
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