Pale Sprinters


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Pale Sprinters

Postby mrbowie » Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:26 pm

I would like to commend everybody for refraining from doing any recent threads on white sprinters, my least favorite topic of all time. Let's keep it up!
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Re: Pale Sprinters

Postby BillVol » Sat Mar 16, 2013 8:38 am

Why? It's perfectly legit topic, and it is noteworthy that the PC mods here allow it!
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Re: Pale Sprinters

Postby tandfman » Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:54 am

mrbowie wrote:I would like to commend everybody for refraining from doing any recent threads on white sprinters, my least favorite topic of all time. Let's keep it up!

If it's one of your least favorite topics, why did you just start a thread on it? :roll:
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Re: Pale Sprinters

Postby nunusguy » Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:24 pm

Far be it from me to pass up this invitation from a provocateur on the subject of racial stereotyping, so here's one that happened rather recently at the NFL combine in Indianapolis.
For anyone who follows the NFL, they "know" the likelihood of a white football player and not a black one turning the fastest time in the 40 for wide-receivers at the Combine is about as likely as an African-American instead of a Jew being appointed Chairman of the Federal Reserve System.
But it almost happened this year at Indy because some white, blond-headed kid named Ryan Swope turned in the 2nd fastest time for his position, a position totally dominated by young black men. Anyway people were stunned, couldn't believe it happened until they went back and started looking at game tape of the Aggie receiver running away from defensive backs (more irony here - most of the DBs were black), for TDs after he caught a pass. We just gotta be more careful about these stereotypes, right ?
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Re: Pale Sprinters

Postby tandfman » Sun Mar 17, 2013 7:10 am

nunusguy wrote:For anyone who follows the NFL, they "know" the likelihood of a white football player and not a black one turning the fastest time in the 40 for wide-receivers at the Combine is about as likely as an African-American instead of a Jew being appointed Chairman of the Federal Reserve System.

Andrew Brimmer, a noted economist and an African-American, served on the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve for eight years. It would not have been a shock if he had been appointed Chairman at some point.
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Re: Pale Sprinters

Postby norunner » Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:21 pm

nunusguy wrote:Far be it from me to pass up this invitation from a provocateur on the subject of racial stereotyping, so here's one that happened rather recently at the NFL combine in Indianapolis.
For anyone who follows the NFL, they "know" the likelihood of a white football player and not a black one turning the fastest time in the 40 for wide-receivers at the Combine is about as likely as an African-American instead of a Jew being appointed Chairman of the Federal Reserve System.
But it almost happened this year at Indy because some white, blond-headed kid named Ryan Swope turned in the 2nd fastest time for his position, a position totally dominated by young black men. Anyway people were stunned, couldn't believe it happened until they went back and started looking at game tape of the Aggie receiver running away from defensive backs (more irony here - most of the DBs were black), for TDs after he caught a pass. We just gotta be more careful about these stereotypes, right ?
On the subject of racial stereotyping in the NFL, are there any black kickers/punters or has there ever been one? All i see is white guys punting and kicking and i wonder why that should be.
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Re: Pale Sprinters

Postby dj » Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:08 pm

norunner wrote:On the subject of racial stereotyping in the NFL, are there any black kickers/punters or has there ever been one? All i see is white guys punting and kicking and i wonder why that should be.


Best I can think of were punter Reggie Roby (Miami) and kicker Gene Mingo (Denver).

Roby led the NFL in punting average (45.7 ypp) in 1991. Mingo led the AFL in kick scoring with 113 points (led all scorers with 137 points).
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Re: Pale Sprinters

Postby Marlow » Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:00 pm

BillVol wrote:Why? It's perfectly legit topic, and it is noteworthy that the PC mods here allow it!

When you can give me an iron-clad definition of 'black' or 'white', I'll recognize its legitimacy. You can't and neither can anyone else. Skin color exists in every shade from extremely dark to extremely light. Where's that cut-off again? :roll:
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Re: Pale Sprinters

Postby Daisy » Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:25 pm

Marlow wrote:Where's that cut-off again? :roll:


In 2006, Brutal wrote:Let's talk some "facts" then.

No white American has ever ran a sub 10.10 much less a sub 10.00 explain why that is.

Tell me why all the sprint records from high school to world are held by black athletes.

Talk to me why tiny Jamaica would kick China's butt in the sprints.As would Trinidad and Cuba.

Here are 5 speedy black receivers that all ran a sub10.20. Why no white guys?

Bob Hayes
Alvis Whitted
Sam Graddy
James Jett
Willie Gault

Here are 5 speedy black running backs that all ran sub 9.5/10.3, why no white guys?

Herschel Walker
Travis Wiliams
Curtis Dickey
OJ Simpson
Michael Bennett

Here are 5 speedy defensive backs who all ran sub 9.5/10.30. Where's the white guys?

Darrell Green
James Trapp
Terrence Newman
Clarence Childs
Henry Carr

Why do we have to go all the way back to 1964 to find a white sprinter on a USA Oly 4x1 team?

Why do we have to go all the wy back to 1956 to find a white American winning the Olympic 100 meters?

Go ahead give me a white Reggie Bush or Vince Young.

Why has Nigeria had more sub10.00 sprinters than white Europe?

Why are the fastest Canadians, Brits, French black?

Also keep in mind, today high school kids are running a hell of a lot faster than back in the day. Most national class guys can run 10.40. That would have beat Morrow at Melbourne.


Chris Collinsworth???????...hahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=17068&p=241303#p241303
Last edited by Daisy on Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pale Sprinters

Postby nunusguy » Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:24 am

That's some pretty compelling factual information there Daisy, and I liked the reference to
Chris Collinsworth, who of course was actually a school-boy sprinter of some note in FLA as I recall ? I also remember Lance Alworth, a very fast "pale" WR out of Arkansas who went on the play for the Chargers.
I dunno, maybe at some point in time people won't be so downright uncomfortable about discussing "varying" athletic abilities/skills along racial lines, but until then it seems to be off limits for most.
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Re: Pale Sprinters

Postby user4 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:24 am

nunusguy wrote:That's some pretty compelling factual information there Daisy, and I liked the reference to
Chris Collinsworth, who of course was actually a school-boy sprinter of some note in FLA as I recall ? I also remember Lance Alworth, a very fast "pale" WR out of Arkansas who went on the play for the Chargers.
I dunno, maybe at some point in time people won't be so downright uncomfortable about discussing "varying" athletic abilities/skills along racial lines, but until then it seems to be off limits for most.


I think in due time the geneticist will have the final word and it will more align with what most 9th graders observe than that of the good hearted and well intentioned Marlow (of course I would rather live in a world of Marlows than the opposite). But I suspect a good deal of what we see in the sprints in terms of homogeneity, or any event for that matter, is due in at least small part to participation levels. Some groups are more excited about certain events than others and it makes perfect sense that such participation levels would correlated well with real talent levels. So it was and so it ever will be. That is not to say that a person or european descent will never be a OG 100m champion, but along with a genetic margin compared to those of west african descent there may be these other factors as well. Regarding Nigeria, it is worth noting that it is a nation of over 150million people, about the size of Japan. To lend credence to the participation theory, how many Nigerians have run sub 10 compared to west africans residing in other western cultures.


Brutal wrote:Also keep in mind, today high school kids are running a hell of a lot faster than back in the day. Most national class guys can run 10.40. That would have beat Morrow at Melbourne.


I would agree with most of what Brutal wrote with the exception of this last line, adjust for wind and conditions and there is no 10.4 sprinter today that would have been close to Morrow at Melbourne. Of course there has been no european descent sprinter that has surpassed Morrow since. His 1956 sprint feat bests Hary, Borzov and Wells.
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Re: Pale Sprinters

Postby Marlow » Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:23 am

Daisy wrote:
Marlow wrote:Where's that cut-off again? :roll:

Brutal wrote:Let's talk some "facts" then.

Thank you for making my case. Brutal was the worst spreader of mis-information in this regard. He couldn't define black or white either. I equate his position to the infamous definition of pornography, "I know it when I see it." :roll:

user4 wrote:I think in due time the geneticist will have the final word and it will more align with what most 9th graders observe to the shock of the good hearted and well intentioned Marlow.

I am emphatically neither good-hearted nor well-intentioned in this regard; NO ONE has EVER given me a workable definition of 'black' and 'white' that can positively ID a mixed race (and let's face it, MOST American sprinters are) athlete as either one or the other. Lolo Jones springs to mind. Many (incl. herself?) claim her 'black'. Please. I know some 'Aryans' (see the slippery slope?) who look more 'negroid' than she does!

This whole line of discourse is totally absurd. :roll: [yes, that's my third rolly-eye emoticon, the most uncivil of them all - to show my utter disdain of the conversation - and yes, I should just ignore it, but some things just annoy you SO much you are compelled to respond! . . . sorry . . . ]
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Re: Pale Sprinters

Postby norunner » Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:50 am

Here is another fact: There is not a single african chess player among the current top100 world ranking. So that means african brains somehow aren't wired for chess? I doubt it. And the fact that there are no black kickers/punters in the NFL does not mean "black men can't punt" as it would suggest.
The point is, there could be many reasons other than the obvious one for the lack of white sprinters among the best.
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Re: Pale Sprinters

Postby user4 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:53 am

Marlow wrote:
user4 wrote:I think in due time the geneticist will have the final word and it will more align with what most 9th graders observe to the shock of the good hearted and well intentioned Marlow.

I am emphatically neither good-hearted nor well-intentioned in this regard; NO ONE has EVER given me a workable definition of 'black' and 'white' that can positively ID a mixed race (and let's face it, MOST American sprinters are) athlete as either one or the other. Lolo Jones springs to mind. Many (incl. herself?) claim her 'black'. Please. I know some 'Aryans' (see the slippery slope?) who look more 'negroid' than she does!

This whole line of discourse is totally absurd. :roll: [yes, that's my third rolly-eye emoticon, the most uncivil of them all - to show my utter disdain of the conversation - and yes, I should just ignore it, but some things just annoy you SO much you are compelled to respond! . . . sorry . . . ]


It might annoy you so much because you are reading so much pain that isnt there into them. Positively IDing ghosts and goblins in the closet only reinforces your fear and loathing. One could just as easily also argue that mixed race athletes are superior based on the success of US athletes, two of my all time favorites, Dan Obrien, and Reese Hoffa come to mind. Can I positively ID them as mixed race ? No I cant. but is it not the case that they have some ancestors of both west african and european descent ? My absolute favorite Bryan Clay if I understand correctly has a black american father and an east asian mother. The theory may be true or false but there is nothing nefarious and no one but you is asking that the theory be an all encompassing framework for categorizing people. Many others are just curious to understand the reason why things are the way they are.
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Re: Pale Sprinters

Postby Daisy » Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:16 am

Marlow wrote:NO ONE has EVER given me a workable definition of 'black' and 'white' that can positively ID a mixed race

While you're at it, how about male and female?
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Re: Pale Sprinters

Postby Marlow » Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:24 am

user4 wrote:Can I positively ID them as mixed race ? No I cant.

Isn't that what I'm saying? Once you admit that, the entire discussion implodes from a lack of clarity on what it is we're even talking about.
Just to be clear, I am NOT trying to be PC here. Give me a West Central African (exactly where the slave traders sought their 'cargo') to sprint every time. Give me a Rift Valley denizen to run distance, please. I know there are 'racial' (sic) differences, but in today's real-world, given the current state of 'mixing', it is a fool's errand to try and make distinctions based on skin color, pale or not.
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Re: Pale Sprinters

Postby Master Po » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:19 am

We are indeed doing a great job of refraining from discussing this subject. :)

Reluctant to contribute to the topic, but wish to agree w marlow. If we set aside the worse-than-useless term "race" we know that certain forms of athletics excellence can (or could, if someone did the DNA research) be strongly correlated with genetic groups that are themselves strongly associated with particular geographies & histories.

Look at two data sets that are close in number & representative of two expressions of athletics excellence: 85 men have run sub-10:00 for 100m; 84 have run sub-13:00 for 5km. (Using data from all-athletics.com.)

Almost all of the 5km sub-13 group could likely be "genetically-geographically sourced" not just to Kenya or Ethiopia & some contiguous nations (the national designations are themselves too vague for this discussion), but probably to the region of the East Africa Rift. For those in the 5km group from NW African origins, I would guess that most of those are from the Atlas Mountains region. And then there are a few (so-called "Europeans", e.g., Baumann, Mottram, Rupp, et al.) of the 84 likely not genetically associated with either of those African groups. So, an easily recognized pattern, even if we don't know the specific genetic history of the individuals.

Likewise, almost all of the 85 100m sub-10 group could likely be "genetically-geographically sourced" to the sub-Saharan West Africa region. A bit harder to define more distinctly, but that's because of the cultural disruptions & forced migrations of peoples from those regions over the past ~400 years. Had those disruptions not occurred, we might be able to see these "sprinter cultures" as clearly in W. Africa as we can see them in very specific small regions of Kenya & Ethiopia. & in that larger sprinter group are a very few (e.g., Lemaitre, Patrick Johnson) likely not genetically associated with the sub-Saharan west African regions-genetic groups.

We could also probably find reasonably common genetic histories clustered around many of those who successfully throw heavy & pointy instruments.

In all of these cases, particular sporting cultures replicate, reinforce, & often inhibit the expressions of the genetic gifts we value. & there are the exceptions in every data set. & that's what comprises our sport, & we all know it, & we would probably mostly agree with this in its broad outlines, but these things can still be the stuff of argument & offense, which is also part of our sport, I suppose.

All of this offered with no sense of certainty, & with malice toward none & charity for all. :)
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Re: Pale Sprinters

Postby user4 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:10 pm

Master Po wrote:We are indeed doing a great job of refraining from discussing this subject. :)

Reluctant to contribute to the topic, but wish to agree w marlow. ... (lots of good and obvious stuff)

All of this offered with no sense of certainty, & with malice toward none & charity for all. :)


If that was your best and indeed an accurate interpretation of Marlow then we are all in agreement :)
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Re: Pale Sprinters

Postby Marlow » Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:12 pm

user4 wrote:All of this offered with no sense of certainty, & with malice toward none & charity for all. :)

Amen to that, brother!
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Re: Pale Sprinters

Postby mrbowie » Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:30 pm

I deserved to be flogged for re-igniting this thread.
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Re: Pale Sprinters

Postby Daisy » Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:41 pm

mrbowie wrote:I deserved to be flogged for re-igniting this thread.

Do we still do TAFNY's around here? This deserves one!! :mrgreen:
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Re: Pale Sprinters

Postby user4 » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:59 am

Daisy wrote:
mrbowie wrote:I deserved to be flogged for re-igniting this thread.

Do we still do TAFNY's around here? This deserves one!! :mrgreen:


It is amazing how each one deals with the observable facts in a way that protects his own higher sensibilities.
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Re: Pale Sprinters

Postby Marlow » Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:51 pm

Daisy wrote:
mrbowie wrote:I deserved to be flogged for re-igniting this thread.

Do we still do TAFNY's around here? This deserves one!! :mrgreen:

Pick your aphorism:

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
No good deed goes unpunished.

:D
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Re: Pale Sprinters

Postby tandfman » Sun Mar 24, 2013 2:32 pm

Marlow wrote: Give me a Rift Valley denizen to run distance, please.

Today, in Poland, you lose! :lol:
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Re: Pale Sprinters

Postby noone » Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:57 pm

nunusguy wrote:That's some pretty compelling factual information there Daisy, and I liked the reference to
Chris Collinsworth, who of course was actually a school-boy sprinter of some note in FLA as I recall ? I also remember Lance Alworth, a very fast "pale" WR out of Arkansas who went on the play for the Chargers.
I dunno, maybe at some point in time people won't be so downright uncomfortable about discussing "varying" athletic abilities/skills along racial lines, but until then it seems to be off limits for most.


It's Cris Collinsworth, no h in Chris.
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Re: Pale Sprinters

Postby user4 » Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:51 am

Marlow wrote:
Daisy wrote:
mrbowie wrote:I deserved to be flogged for re-igniting this thread.

Do we still do TAFNY's around here? This deserves one!! :mrgreen:

Pick your aphorism:

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
No good deed goes unpunished.

:D


actually neither one applies here, if the good mrbowie really feels the way he has expressed then it was not a good that got punished and therefore not an example of "no good deed goes unpunished" . Likewise how could it be a good intention to bring up a topic that you loath and attribute moral failings to (unless perhaps you are feigning contempt). A better analogy might be an "agent provocateur" but that likely fails too. Truth is sometimes very uncomfortable and telling it can lead to punishment in any narrow social economy where impressions and perceptions are far more important than any peculiar material facts.
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Re: Pale Sprinters

Postby Marlow » Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:35 am

user4 wrote:1. Likewise how could it be a good intention to bring up a topic that you loath and attribute moral failings to (unless perhaps you are feigning contempt).
2. Truth is sometimes very uncomfortable and telling it can lead to punishment in any narrow social economy where impressions and perceptions are far more important than any peculiar material facts.

1. I neither loathe nor attribute moral failings to this topic. I find it absurd. Since no one can explain to me what constitutes 'black' or 'white' in this context, I point out the inanity and futility of the discussion.
2. I love the truth; It can set us free. But as you know, there is never just one truth. People's individual perspectives ensure that. My truth is contained in answer 1. above; yours does not, I gather. So be it.
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Re: Pale Sprinters

Postby user4 » Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:55 am

Marlow wrote:
user4 wrote:1. Likewise how could it be a good intention to bring up a topic that you loath and attribute moral failings to (unless perhaps you are feigning contempt).
2. Truth is sometimes very uncomfortable and telling it can lead to punishment in any narrow social economy where impressions and perceptions are far more important than any peculiar material facts.

1. I neither loathe nor attribute moral failings to this topic. I find it absurd. Since no one can explain to me what constitutes 'black' or 'white' in this context, I point out the inanity and futility of the discussion.
2. I love the truth; It can set us free. But as you know, there is never just one truth. People's individual perspectives ensure that. My truth is contained in answer 1. above; yours does not, I gather. So be it.


1. no one used the word black or white,.. allow me to repeat again , you are the only one calling for an all encompassing universal theory of human categories in black and white terms. We simply make observations and find patterns and wonder why. The patterns may be explained by allot of factors, predictors. Im open to explanations and my container wants to grow.

2. so be it :)
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Re: Pale Sprinters

Postby Marlow » Fri Mar 29, 2013 6:04 am

user4 wrote:no one used the word black or white

I find that disingenuous. The word 'pale' in this thread title refers directly to 'white' sprinters, as opposed to 'black' sprinters. It is one of many threads about 'pale' sprinters, all of which have run out the same canards about 'white vs. black'. If the discussion were about the tendencies of west central African ethnic sprinters vs, northern European ethnic sprinters, I would totally agree that the former have genetic superiority, on average, over the latter in terms of sprinting. That has NOT been the gist of the conversation in all these threads. It has been about identifying individuals (of mixed ethnicity, of which more and more of us are) and assigning them to boxes.
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Re: Pale Sprinters

Postby user4 » Fri Mar 29, 2013 7:02 am

Marlow wrote:
user4 wrote:no one used the word black or white

I find that disingenuous. The word 'pale' in this thread title refers directly to 'white' sprinters, as opposed to 'black' sprinters. It is one of many threads about 'pale' sprinters, all of which have run out the same canards about 'white vs. black'. If the discussion were about the tendencies of west central African ethnic sprinters vs, northern European ethnic sprinters, I would totally agree that the former have genetic superiority, on average, over the latter in terms of sprinting. That has NOT been the gist of the conversation in all these threads. It has been about identifying individuals (of mixed ethnicity, of which more and more of us are) and assigning them to boxes.


I think it is curious that athletes of largely west african ancestry fill such a large proportion of the lanes of OG/WC 100/200/400m final s. That is both peculiar and interesting. Conversely, and for exactly the same reason, related to this is the very interesting topic of sprinters that are other-than of west-african origin. One such group are those pale/white sprinters which mrbowie takes an interest in. These seem to have been competitive in the past. Other interesting questions: Can east africans compete at 200-400 ? (can Rudisha win a 400m medal ? , yes it can ! ok, im off on a tangent) ,Why are they not ? Can China compete at events in the 100-800m range ? Can they compete in the lj and tj ? Why has India not produced anything close to a Milkah Singh in the last 50 years ? Why does Brazil not have a sub3min 4X4 every year ? Are these observations and questions a gordian knot and simply inscrutable to you ? These seem like natural and reasonable questions to a T&F fan. You dont have to be a misanthrope to ask (just like you dont have to be a misanthrope to forbid their being asked). You can actually love and admire all people and still ask these questions.
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Re: Pale Sprinters

Postby Marlow » Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:38 am

user4 wrote:
Marlow wrote:If the discussion were about the tendencies of west central African ethnic sprinters vs, northern European ethnic sprinters, I would totally agree that the former have genetic superiority, on average, over the latter in terms of sprinting. .

1. I think it is curious that athletes of largely west african ancestry fill such a large proportion of the lanes of OG/WC 100/200/400m final s.
2. Are these observations and questions a gordian knot and simply inscrutable to you ?

1. Curious? I just addressed it above.
2. Inscrutable? I just addressed it above.
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Re: Pale Sprinters

Postby Daisy » Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:52 am

We heard from Brutal. What does Texas have to add?

In 2007, Texas wrote:When we see such a small % of a population totally dominating something, it's makes ya curious. It's not like we see a few more black athletes than whites. We see 99.9% black in some athletic events/positions. What it's not cool to wonder ...why?


In reply, Justin Clouder wrote:Please define "black" and "white" in as you understand it. Are lily-skinned rednecks with 20% black ancestry white? Is a dark-skinned man with two light-skinned grandparents black, or white? What about people with one light and one dark skinned parent? Is there a difference between light brown-skinned people and deep ebony-skinned people? What does it take to be counted as "black" or "white" in this discussion? Just one drop? One parent? One grandparent?Define the terms in a coherent way and the debate becomes interesting. Until then it is simply racist.


viewtopic.php?p=403389#p403389
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Re: Pale Sprinters

Postby batonless relay » Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:58 am

Justin Clouder hits the nail on the head.
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Re: Pale Sprinters

Postby Pego » Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:26 pm

Marlow wrote:But as you know, there is never just one truth.


Never? No objective knowledge ever :shock: ?

(Sorry for a delayed response, I am slow at discovering these things :wink: ).
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Re: Pale Sprinters

Postby Marlow » Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:00 pm

Pego wrote:
Marlow wrote:But as you know, there is never just one truth.

Never? No objective knowledge ever :shock: ?

Just look at history and all the 'objective knowledge' they were sure they knew. This is little doubt that the current model of how matter exists (sub-atomic particles, quantum physics, etc.) will be replaced by something far more sophisticated in the future (a unified field theory chief among them). If we can't even know the truth of how (and more importantly, WHY) matter exists, what CAN we be sure of??!!
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Re: Pale Sprinters

Postby user4 » Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:06 pm

Pego wrote:
Marlow wrote:But as you know, there is never just one truth.


Never? No objective knowledge ever :shock: ?

(Sorry for a delayed response, I am slow at discovering these things :wink: ).


if so then is it the only truth ?, .. ever ?
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Re: Pale Sprinters

Postby Daisy » Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:44 pm

Marlow wrote: If we can't even know the truth of how (and more importantly, WHY) matter exists, what CAN we be sure of??!!

Well you're setting a pretty high bar for any truth if we have to know the WHY first.

Do you have to know all truth to know some truth? Is it not true that matter is made up of sub-atomic particles?
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Re: Pale Sprinters

Postby user4 » Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:49 pm

Daisy wrote:
Marlow wrote: If we can't even know the truth of how (and more importantly, WHY) matter exists, what CAN we be sure of??!!

Well you're setting a pretty high bar for any truth if we have to know the WHY first.

Do you have to know all truth to know some truth? Is it not true that matter is made up of sub-atomic particles?


what is a particle and why :) ..
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Re: Pale Sprinters

Postby Daisy » Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:01 pm

user4 wrote:what is a particle and why :) ..

Do we we need to know to see if it's subatomic? We can embrace our ignorance and still know something. ;)
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Re: Pale Sprinters

Postby Pego » Fri Mar 29, 2013 6:19 pm

Marlow wrote:
Pego wrote:
Marlow wrote:But as you know, there is never just one truth.

Never? No objective knowledge ever :shock: ?

Just look at history and all the 'objective knowledge' they were sure they knew. This is little doubt that the current model of how matter exists (sub-atomic particles, quantum physics, etc.) will be replaced by something far more sophisticated in the future (a unified field theory chief among them). If we can't even know the truth of how (and more importantly, WHY) matter exists, what CAN we be sure of??!!


I did not say "all".
You said "none."
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