Look out Usain Bolt..Terrell Sinkfield 40 yard Record 4.19!!


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Look out Usain Bolt..Terrell Sinkfield 40 yard Record 4.19!!

Postby starboyunlimited » Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:59 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n31-FaO3ips
Northern Iowa receiver Terrell Sinkfield reportedly ran the 40-yard dash in 4.19 seconds at a pro day held Monday at the University of Minnesota.

The blazing time came in his second attempt at the 40 and was so fast that he was asked to run a third time, something none of the other prospects who participated in the pro day was asked to do, according to FoxSportsNorth.com.

Running Away With It

Amid reports that N. Iowa WR Terrell Sinkfield ran a 4.1 40-yard dash, we take a look at the fastest official 40 times at the NFL combine since 2006.
Time (seconds)
Chris Johnson
(ECU, 2008) 4.24
Marquise Goodwin
(Texas, 2013) 4.27
Jacoby Ford
(Clemson, 2010) 4.28
DeMarcus Van Dyke
(Miami, 2011) 4.28
Yamon Figurs
(Kansas State, 2007) 4.30
Darrius Heyward-Bey
Maryland, 2009) 4.30
-- NFL.com

Sinkfield reportedly stumbled on the third attempt but still ran a 4.44.

"I knew it was good when I finished," Sinkfield told the website of his 4.19 time. "I was pretty happy, so I came back. I thought I messed up when they said go again. I'm like, 'Dang, why do I have to run again?' "

Sinkfield reportedly ran 4.27 in his first attempt for an average of 4.3 on the three runs.

"I was trying to shoot for a 4.19. I knew it was good when I finished," Sinkfield told The (St. Paul) Pioneer Press. "The fastest I've done [before Monday] was 4.2. I was running 4.3s in high school."

Scott Studwell, the Minnesota Vikings' director of college scouting, however, told The Pioneer Press that he didn't have any times under 4.3 for Sinkfield.

"He ran in the high 4.3s. He can run. He ran fast. He tested well," he told the newspaper.

The scouting combine record time in the 40 is the 4.24 run by Chris Johnson at the 2008 event.
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Re: Look out Usain Bolt..Terrell Sinkfield 40 yard Record 4.

Postby nicest person ever » Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:25 am

Using the 40 yard dash as a method of comparison against Usain Bolt would probably be kind of tricky and not a very reliable method of comparison to Bolt's true sprinting ability, because by far the weakest portion of Bolt's overall 100m run is the beginning section of it. As in, Bolt is actually only just average or even below average (well... against world class competition that is) in the first 10 or 20 meters or so of his 100m dash. It is only around the 30ish meter mark that bolt starts to gain on, then pass, and then pull away from his competition. So, although Bolt would probably have a very good 40 yard ash time, it wouldn't be as good as it "should be" for a 9.5 100m guy if he were a start-emphasis sprinters instead of a second-half-emphasis sprinter which is what he really is.

That said, in the 60m (which is, very importantly, considerably longer than the 40 yard dash), Bolt would be the current world record holder if one used his 60m split time from his 100m WR run. If I remember correctly, he had a 60m split time of 6.36 seconds (the current world record in the actual indoor 60m dash is 6.39 seconds by Maurice Greene). And that was with Bolt not even doing it as a 60m race, but as a 100m race, meaning he wasn't trying to lean through the tape/focus on the 60m mark as his finnish line, so really he was probably capable of even a few hundredths faster than that, probably around a 6.33-6.34 or something if he really wanted it.

As for the 40 yard dash, it is just a little too short for Bolt to really exploit his edge, which basically just BEGINS right when that race ENDS, so, I'm not even so sure he would be the world record holder in the 40 yard dash if it was an actual IAAF official track and field olympic event. Personally, I think Asafa Powell in his prime probably would've been the fastest 40 yard dasher of all time. Asafa was notorious for having an ABSURDLY fast first-half in his 100m dashes, and a relatively weak second-half, by comparison. Like, he would often take out a massive lead in the first half of the race, and be way out several meters ahead of the whole field by the halfway mark, and then the field gained back some of the ground on him in the second half of his races usually, since he was more of a super great acceleration, not so great top-end-speed type of sprinter, as far as his overall strengths/weaknesses (relative to himself I mean).

I would guess that Asafa Powell in his prime probably would've run around a 4.00-4.05 or so in the 40 yard dash if it was electronically timed and with reaction time not included in it. Bolt would probably be more like 4.10-4.15ish, or maybe even just a measly (lol, measly in the relative sense I mean) 4.20ish, even tho in the 100m he is considerably faster than Powell, in the 40, I think Powell (in his prime) would've had the edge.

These are just my rough guesses though, obviously I could be way off.
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Re: Look out Usain Bolt..Terrell Sinkfield 40 yard Record 4.

Postby JumboElliott » Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:09 am

This was also almost certainly one coach's hand timed mark.
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Re: Look out Usain Bolt..Terrell Sinkfield 40 yard Record 4.

Postby 26mi235 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:15 am

JumboElliott wrote:This was also almost certainly one coach's hand timed mark.


It was my impression that they had improved their procedures considerably, although maybe this is not the official combine testing.
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Re: Look out Usain Bolt..Terrell Sinkfield 40 yard Record 4.

Postby JumboElliott » Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:21 am

This was just a pro day. I doubt they have FAT at a pro day. I think Reggie Bush may have, but he ran his on a track at USC.
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Re: Look out Usain Bolt..Terrell Sinkfield 40 yard Record 4.

Postby nicest person ever » Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:24 am

At the very beginning of the post it says that it was done at the Pro Day at University of Minnesota. Not the NFL combine. Thus who knows if it was timed legit-style or if it was just some silly hand-timed mark. It is true though that the NFL combine method has improved drastically and is now very accurate, as it is no longer hand-timed, and in addition to that they even go back over it with a high speed camera or something to correct it even urther to make it super official/accurate or something.
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Re: Look out Usain Bolt..Terrell Sinkfield 40 yard Record 4.

Postby JRM » Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:18 am

If you watch the linked video, you'll see a pair of pylons marking the start, and a guy with a stopwatch at the end. Most definitely not FAT. Why are these football "times" even given the light of day on this board?
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Re: Look out Usain Bolt..Terrell Sinkfield 40 yard Record 4.

Postby Dutra5 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:48 am

Come on.

Pro Day 40 times are almost always a minimum of a tenth faster than those posted at the combine and not taken seriously even by NFL standards.
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Re: Look out Usain Bolt..Terrell Sinkfield 40 yard Record 4.

Postby Cooter Brown » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:06 pm

The scout stating he had him at only 4.3 gives it away that it's hand timed.
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Re: Look out Usain Bolt..Terrell Sinkfield 40 yard Record 4.

Postby Marlow » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:17 pm

**YAAAAAAAAWWWWWNNNNN**

Wake me when someone runs a 4.36 FAT like Bolt can.
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Re: Look out Usain Bolt..Terrell Sinkfield 40 yard Record 4.

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:43 pm

This is why no one puts much stock in times run at pro days. Anyone can drop a bomb at their school's pro day.
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Re: Look out Usain Bolt..Terrell Sinkfield 40 yard Record 4.

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:50 pm

Marlow wrote:**YAAAAAAAAWWWWWNNNNN**

Wake me when someone runs a 4.36 FAT like Bolt can.

I'll bet the Chris Johnson of 2008 vintage who ran 4.24 with football cleats (not track spikes), without starting blocks, without a tailwind and on field turf (not Mondo), could run a 4.36 FAT. In 2008, Richard Thompson led Bolt through 40 yards in Beijing, and Thompson always trailed Trindon Holliday through 40 yards when they raced each other during their collegegiate careers.
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Re: Look out Usain Bolt..Terrell Sinkfield 40 yard Record 4.

Postby batonless relay » Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:29 pm

:lol: Chris Johnson is the beneficiary of a completely flawed timing system that has convinced people who are not willing to be realistic and/or intellectually honest to make a comparison that would be impossible to make. the 4.24 that Johnson supposedly ran could just as well be 4.27 or even 4.37 - we don't know; the "auto" system used in the combine is not accurate. The system is not triggered; it's just a man "eye-balling" when someone first moved. Is someone really trying to compare that to a system where the gun is rigged to the starting mechanism and the blocks are too - as well as a "eye" at the finish line?

jazzcyclist wrote:In 2008, Richard Thompson led Bolt through 40 yards in Beijing, and Thompson always trailed Trindon Holliday through 40 yards when they raced each other during their collegegiate careers.

Unless we use a new definition of "always", here is an example below where Thompson is clearly leading Holliday at 40 yards
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tniTtvsFyY

one other thing: at the 2009 WC in Berlin Usain Bolt ran 2.89 in both his semi and final for the first 20m (by 40m he had picked up an additional .06) while reacting in .135 and .146, respectively; Richard Thompson was 2.92 and 2.90 on reaction times of .132 and .119, respectively. Trying to say that Johnson is "faster" than Bolt even though Johnson never raced Holliday who DID NOT always beat Thompson (proved above) who was easily beaten to 20m by Usain Bolt in Berlin despite Thompson having a better reaction time in Berlin is ... :lol:

If you stop the tape at approximately 4.1 you will see that Richard Thompson did not lead Bolt at 40 yards - and that was with Bolt giving away .03s+ in reaction time (Bolt, .165; Thompson, .133).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-urnlaJpOA
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Re: Look out Usain Bolt..Terrell Sinkfield 40 yard Record 4.

Postby Marlow » Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:00 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
Marlow wrote:**YAAAAAAAAWWWWWNNNNN**
Wake me when someone runs a 4.36 FAT like Bolt can.

I'll bet the Chris Johnson of 2008 vintage who ran 4.24 with football cleats (not track spikes), without starting blocks, without a tailwind and on field turf (not Mondo), could run a 4.36 FAT.

I bet he could too . . . if it was short-course, downhill, wind-aided, 2000m altitude aided.
Otherwise, fuggedabowdit.
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Re: Look out Usain Bolt..Terrell Sinkfield 40 yard Record 4.

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:36 pm

batonless relay wrote::lol: Chris Johnson is the beneficiary of a completely flawed timing system that has convinced people who are not willing to be realistic and/or intellectually honest to make a comparison that would be impossible to make. the 4.24 that Johnson supposedly ran could just as well be 4.27 or even 4.37 - we don't know; the "auto" system used in the combine is not accurate. The system is not triggered; it's just a man "eye-balling" when someone first moved. Is someone really trying to compare that to a system where the gun is rigged to the starting mechanism and the blocks are too - as well as a "eye" at the finish line?

I've already conceded that the NFL Combine's current FAT system is not as precise as track and field's FAT system, but wIth all due respect, you lose any credibility with me when you say that Johnson may have only run 4.37. Either you aren't familiar with the current system or you're being deliberately dishonest to say this. By the way, not only does the NFL Network routinely superimpose 40-yard videos of different players during the course of the combine, but they've also on occasion superimposed the videos of players from different years. And before you ask, yes, I have seen the Johnson video superimposed which further convinced me that he was faster than Holliday, Jacoby Ford and anyone else who has run over the last eight years.
batonless relay wrote::Unless we use a new definition of "always", here is an example below where Thompson is clearly leading Holliday at 40 yards

I plead guilty to a little hyperbole. I should have said "usually" instead of "always", but even the video that you linked only shows Thompson even with Holliday at 40 yards, not ahead. This video was more the rule rather than the exception of their college races:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdgkP1722GA
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Re: Look out Usain Bolt..Terrell Sinkfield 40 yard Record 4.

Postby batonless relay » Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:26 pm

nfl network superimposed Steve Williams of Cal over Goodwin and he was right on Goodwin and ahead of a few guys who were "officially" listed ahead of Williams, and then they announce the official times he was something like the 8th guy with a 4.4x -even Eisen and Sanders were questioning it. Eisen demanded that they go to a fully automatic timing system because it made him doubt all of the timing. Also, I've never seen the Johnson dartfish over any of the other guys so i will reserve an opinion on that until i do. Anyway, you conceded hyperbole so I won't belabor the point but gh once pointed out how Thompson seemed to peak for championships and was rather average on the circuit and before. I don't bring this up to modify your point -clearly Holliday was a very good starter- however at the Olympics, Thompson was the best he'd ever been to run 9.89 in negative wind.

I still am not convinced that Johnson is any faster than ford (4.28/6.52) or Goodwin (4.27/6.69 -'10) and that's because I just can't place value on a human determining accurately when each guy is starting over different years and thousands of attempts. I think at least a variance of +/- .04 is fair. That doesn't mean he's not faster, but it also, in my mind, doesn't mean he is. And when i consider that Bolt is .2 faster than Ford and the fact that Bolt added .06 from 20m to 40m on Richard Thompson it tells me that though all of those guys could probably beat Bolt if he ran poorly...none of them could beat him if he ran at his best. Goodwin being "behind" Johnson by .03 also shakes any faith i had in a Johnson.

All that said, I fervently believe that if nfl football didn't exist and track and field in the USA was as much of a "goto" sport in the USA as it is in Jamaica that the USA would probably have no less than 10 guys under 9.70 - assuming they had the coaching. That doesn't mean that any would be faster than Usain Bolt, but I don't rule it out either.

One last thing: that "4.19" reported at the Northern Iowa pro day was the slowest sub-4.3 I've ever seen. I just can't believe that was a 4.19 even by hand timed standards.
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Re: Look out Usain Bolt..Terrell Sinkfield 40 yard Record 4.

Postby Dutra5 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:23 pm

batonless relay wrote:
One last thing: that "4.19" reported at the Northern Iowa pro day was the slowest sub-4.3 I've ever seen. I just can't believe that was a 4.19 even by hand timed standards.


I thought I heard that it was the player's agent that got the 4.19. That should cast further doubt on things.
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Re: Look out Usain Bolt..Terrell Sinkfield 40 yard Record 4.

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:33 pm

batonless relay wrote: I don't bring this up to modify your point -clearly Holliday was a very good starter- however at the Olympics, Thompson was the best he'd ever been to run 9.89 in negative wind.

Actually there was a still wind for that race.

batonless relay wrote: I still am not convinced that Johnson is any faster than ford (4.28/6.52) or Goodwin (4.27/6.69 -'10) and that's because I just can't place value on a human determining accurately when each guy is starting over different years and thousands of attempts. I think at least a variance of +/- .04 is fair.

Ford actually ran 6.51 twice in 2009, and based on my own personal experience with the stopwatch, I don't think Mark Gorscak is as inconsistent with the stopwatch as you do. At worst he has a variance of +/-0.02 for a 0.04s range of error IMO. However, I'm willing to concede that a +/-0.04 variance is at least plausible but not the +/-0.13 variance that you suggested in your earlier post.

batonless relay wrote: That doesn't mean he's not faster, but it also, in my mind, doesn't mean he is. And when i consider that Bolt is .2 faster than Ford and the fact that Bolt added .06 from 20m to 40m on Richard Thompson it tells me that though all of those guys could probably beat Bolt if he ran poorly...none of them could beat him if he ran at his best. Goodwin being "behind" Johnson by .03 also shakes any faith i had in a Johnson.

At what distance are you suggesting that Bolt is 0.2s faster than Ford? My math tells me that he's more than 0.2s faster at 100 meters, less than 0.2s faster than 60 meters and perhaps dead even with Ford at 40 yards.
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Re: Look out Usain Bolt..Terrell Sinkfield 40 yard Record 4.

Postby batonless relay » Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:57 am

jazzcyclist wrote: At what distance are you suggesting that Bolt is 0.2s faster than Ford? My math tells me that he's more than 0.2s faster at 100 meters, less than 0.2s faster than 60 meters and perhaps dead even with Ford at 40 yards.

lets assume that Ford was a 9.98 (he ran 10.01), that would mean that in 2009, Usain Bolt was .4 better than him at 100m. IAAF and wikipedia have Ford at 6.52 for 60m, but let's use the 6.51 that you said he ran twice. Well, if you follow the link below you will see that Usain Bolt, on the way to 100m at the 2009 IAAF Champs in Berlin, ran 6.41 in the semi and 6.31 in the final. That would be a difference of .2 for 60m. Now, at those same championships, Richard Thompson ran 6.45 through 60m in the final; but it still put him .14 behind Usain - at 60m (that's still less than Bolt's semi time when he was running just to qualify). From 40m to 60m, Usain Bolt doubled his .07s lead at 40m on Richard Thompson to .14s - a difference of .07s. At 40m, Usain was .06 AHEAD of Gay, .07s ahead of Thompson and Powell, .09 ahead of Bailey and .11 ahead of Chambers. That's at 40m which is only 3.5m longer than 40 yards. Now, I do believe that Ford, Johnson and even Goodwin have world class speed but I just don't believe that your example FORD would have been "dead even" with Usain at 40 yards when Usain was .06s ahead of EVERYBODY at 40m. Ford would have to be FASTER than Tyson Gay, Asafa Powell, Daniel Bailey, Richard Thompson and Dwain Chambers at 40m. Are you prepared to say that?

Also, Bolt had the slowest reaction time in Berlin of the top 6. Which means that he ran PAST all those guys to be first to 20m (Bolt, 2.89s; Thompson, 2.90s; Powell, 2.91s; Bailey & Gay, 2.92s; Chambers, 2.93s). From 20m to 40m Bolt was 1.75s; Gay, 1.78s; Powell, 1.80s; Bailey and Thompson, 1.81s; Chambers, 1.82s. Bolt ran away -increased his lead- from everyone, on every 20m segment of that 100m. He increased his lead over Gay by .03s, Powell by .05s and Bailey and Thompson by .06s in just 21.8 yards (distance from 20m to 40m) after the initial 20m.

We're using Ford, but when we consider that Goodwin is a hair, .01s, ahead of Ford on the combine list, do you really think it matters? Now use Johnson. Assuming Johnson was AS fast as Tyson Gay to 20m or even Thompson and Powell, Bolt would have run away from him. For me to consider Johnson, Goodwin, Ford or any of the apocryphal times of Sanders, Jackson, et.al to be even competitive with Bolt they would have to be a minimum of a .10 faster; faster than Powell, Gay, Bailey and Thompson(and using IAAF FAT :wink: )


http://berlin.iaaf.org/mm/document/deve ... _13529.pdf

According to this paper below, Usain was about the same to 40 yards in both berlin and Beijing
http://www.ccite.org/Analysing%20men%20 ... oGebra.pdf
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Re: Look out Usain Bolt..Terrell Sinkfield 40 yard Record 4.

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:36 am

I appreciate your analysis but you're overlooking one thing - the 2009 IAAF men's 100 final was run with a tailwind while Ford's 6.51's and the NFL Combine 40's were run with no wind. Furthermore, the Berlin track was likely faster than the tracks where Ford ran 6.51 and I know for a fact that it is much faster than the field turf in Indianapolis. By the way, I'm certain of Ford's 6.51 credentials since I witnessed one of them in person. Here's the link to the IAAF's 2009 men's indoor 60 list that I'm using for my information:

http://www.iaaf.org/records/toplists/sp ... enior/2009

I know that you feel that the NFL's SAT timing system is less precise than I do, so here are a couple of questions for you:

    1) How do you feel that Johnson's speed compares to that of Ford, Holliday and Goodwin over 40 yards?

    2) If Mark Gorsack is as imprecise with the start button as you believe, why have only four 4.2's been produced in the last eight years from over 2500 football players, half of whom were skill players who spent nearly two months preparing for the combine?

I agree with you about Deion Sanders, Bo Jackson, Randy Moss and all of the other guys who supposedly ran other-worldly 40's back in the day. Sanders and Moss are probably 4.3 guys with today's timing system and Jackson is probably a 4.4 guy. As was pointed out earlier in this thread, the hand times are almost always a minimum of 0.1s slower than the NFL Combine's SAT time and often 0.2s slower.
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Re: Look out Usain Bolt..Terrell Sinkfield 40 yard Record 4.

Postby batonless relay » Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:11 am

I wasn't saying that I doubted you on the 6.51, only that I overlooked it on the IAAF and wiki pages. Anyway, the link that you've provided is proof of 6.51. Also, you're right, Berlin did have a tailwind (though Beijing did not and Bolt's time to 40m was reported to be identical in both races (3.78); and I believe that because i was there for both). However, I'm not sure the track was faster in Beijing (Mondo) or Berlin (something like Rekortan). Blacksburg is Mondo and HARD. No disagreement on Indy being slower than Mondo.

1. I'm not sure if I understand your question but i think Johnson compares favorably to the others over 40. Maybe he's faster, maybe he isn't; but I'm not prepared to make that determination based upon a difference of .03 semi-automatic clocking at the combine.

2. I can only guess why there have been only four 4.2's but if I had to i would say onw reason is because it's semi-auto timing. It's easy to say someone runs a 4.1 or 4.2 until you control the conditions AND the clock (fewer itchy fingered agents, coaches, parents, etc). Also, when a Holliday or ford or any of these guys are preparing for the combine they aren't just preparing for the 40; they're also preparing for vertical leap, 3-cone, bench press, etc and the guys who are "fast" probably (remember you asked me so I have to guess because I can't possibly know) work on their other perceived weaknesses and go to the 40 "confident". (But my point is look at someone like Goodwin who was fast, was a football player but did NOT have the "speed" of Ford or Holliday or Scott and a few other ex-tracksters until the combines. Sometimes it's your day, sometimes it ain't or maybe we should be training goodwin to be the next Tyson Gay replacement.)

Another thing. Some very good "skilled players" just aren't nearly as fast with pads off. Michael Irvin was a 4.7 combine guy but I never saw people run him down (bringing him down was another story); chris carter was a 4.7/8 guy and he's a hall of famer; Jerry Rice was average and blew by some of the best corners; Emmitt Smith, hall of famer, was a 4.7 guy. My point is that max rapid acceleration is a skill so rare (though it can be taught) that few in football can duplicate it easy. I watched Raghib Ismael demolish top sprint talent to about 40yds at the Penn Relays only to have the field rush by him. He knew how to start; somepeople do and Chris Johnson is one of those people - Goodwin is also one of those people.

I consider myself VERY SKILLED with a stopwatch (as do most of us on this board, I'm sure) and i can readily admit that I could easily miss by .03 (the mid point between my .04 and your .02); that would make Johnson equal to Goodwin (or another .03 faster, who knows). If the combines were track and field the 40 would be expressed as 4.2 and there wouldn't be a digit to the hundredths. That would make Johnson, Goodwin, and Ford equal.
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Re: Look out Usain Bolt..Terrell Sinkfield 40 yard Record 4.

Postby Marlow » Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:07 am

Here's the bottom line on football players vs. track athletes.

There are zero fb players that can run a 40y FAT track race, in spikes, out of the blocks, on Mondo, and beat Bolt or Blake or Gay or Gatlin, when those guys are in top shape. But . . . if you took some of the best fb types and gave them track-specific training (block starts, clearance, drive, etc.) for a couple of months, there ARE some that could hang with the best T&F guys . . . for 40 yards . . . but not even 60m, much less 100m, without A LOT more training, if at all.
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Re: Look out Usain Bolt..Terrell Sinkfield 40 yard Record 4.

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:14 am

Marlow wrote:Here's the bottom line on football players vs. track athletes.

There are zero fb players that can run a 40y FAT track race, in spikes, out of the blocks, on Mondo, and beat Bolt or Blake or Gay or Gatlin, when those guys are in top shape.

1) Not only is this byperbole, but it's demonstrably false, when you start throwing out names like Gatlin and Gay. For example, in 2007, the best year of Gay's career, Trindon Holliday lead Gay through 60 meters at the USATF Outdoor Championships. Keep in mind that Holliday was still two years away from his peak form, and that he's not even in the top ten football players at the combine over the last eight years. As for Gatlin, he's not known for being a great starter either.

2) The 40 has never been run on Mondo, with spikes and starting blocks, so we're talking about two totally different hypothetical scenarios. FYI, a few years Wallace Spearmon went out to run the 40 Arkansas' pro day with spikes and they wouldn't let him run until he came back with cleats.

Marlow wrote:. . . but not even 60m, much less 100m, without A LOT more training, if at all.

I agree with this, especially about the 100. The 40 and the 100 are probably as different as the 200 and the 400.
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Re: Look out Usain Bolt..Terrell Sinkfield 40 yard Record 4.

Postby Marlow » Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:27 am

jazzcyclist wrote:the best year of Gay's career, Trindon Holliday lead Gay through 60 meters at the USATF Outdoor Championships.

Thanks for making my point. Holliday IS a trained track athlete. Just because Bob Hayes played football does NOT make him any less a track guy.
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Re: Look out Usain Bolt..Terrell Sinkfield 40 yard Record 4.

Postby batonless relay » Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:43 am

Marlow wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:the best year of Gay's career, Trindon Holliday lead Gay through 60 meters at the USATF Outdoor Championships.

Thanks for making my point. Holliday IS a trained track athlete. Just because Bob Hayes played football does NOT make him any less a track guy.

Actually, he did NOT make your point. Chris Johnson (you generalized a bottom line of football players v tracksters and jazz just gave an example, not the definitive example; he used Holliday because though trained...he's not as trained as Gay) is not a "trained" track guy and he's got the fastest combine 40 of all. I also wouldn't be surprised if he was ahead or right there with Ford, Goodwin or Holliday for 60m. He's that good (but Bolt, territory? no way)
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Re: Look out Usain Bolt..Terrell Sinkfield 40 yard Record 4.

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:52 am

Marlow wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:the best year of Gay's career, Trindon Holliday lead Gay through 60 meters at the USATF Outdoor Championships.

Thanks for making my point. Holliday IS a trained track athlete. Just because Bob Hayes played football does NOT make him any less a track guy.

The fact that he's a trained sprinter is irrelevant regarding your previous comment:
Marlow wrote:There are zero fb players that can run a 40y FAT track race, in spikes, out of the blocks, on Mondo, and beat Bolt or Blake or Gay or Gatlin, when those guys are in top shape.

Is Holliday not a football player? And even if you had qualified your statement by using the phrase "fb players without elite track backgrounds" instead of "fb players", are there not other football players, some of whom are not trained sprinters, who are faster than Holliday at 40 yards? Chris Johnson, who has no elite track background, is 0.1s faster than Holliday at 40 yards, and I think 0.1s is outside the margin of error of the NFL's imperfect SAT timing system.
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Re: Look out Usain Bolt..Terrell Sinkfield 40 yard Record 4.

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:03 pm

batonless relay wrote:Actually, he did NOT make your point. Chris Johnson (you generalized a bottom line of football players v tracksters and jazz just gave an example, not the definitive example; he used Holliday because though trained...he's not as trained as Gay) is not a "trained" track guy and he's got the fastest combine 40 of all. I also wouldn't be surprised if he was ahead or right there with Ford, Goodwin or Holliday for 60m. He's that good (but Bolt, territory? no way)

My sense is that Johnson, who weighed in at 195 when he ran at the combine, would have to lose some weight and do some track specific training to compete with those guys at 60. I don't know about Ford and Goodwin, but Holliday did a lot of overdistance training when he was at LSU in order to help him maintain over the second part of the race, especially outdoor. Even Johnson, who has challenged Bolt to a 40-yard race, admits that he doesn't want any parts of Bolt at 60 meters. If you look at most elite 100 races, there's not usually much separation of the field over the first 30 meters, but over the last 60 to 70 meters is when the cream rises to the top.
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Re: Look out Usain Bolt..Terrell Sinkfield 40 yard Record 4.

Postby Marlow » Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:26 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
Marlow wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:the best year of Gay's career, Trindon Holliday lead Gay through 60 meters at the USATF Outdoor Championships.

Thanks for making my point. Holliday IS a trained track athlete. Just because Bob Hayes played football does NOT make him any less a track guy.

The fact that he's a trained sprinter is irrelevant regarding your previous comment:
Marlow wrote:There are zero fb players that can run a 40y FAT track race, in spikes, out of the blocks, on Mondo, and beat Bolt or Blake or Gay or Gatlin, when those guys are in top shape.

Is Holliday not a football player? And even if you had qualified your statement by using the phrase "fb players without elite track backgrounds" instead of "fb players", are there not other football players, some of whom are not trained sprinters, who are faster than Holliday at 40 yards? Chris Johnson, who has no elite track background, is 0.1s faster than Holliday at 40 yards, and I think 0.1s is outside the margin of error of the NFL's imperfect SAT timing system.

Irrelevant? Not at all. Holliday is a HIGHLY trained track athlete. My point has always been that untrained (for track) fb players are not as fast as the very best track sprinters. They COULD be, if trained, but they're not. Running with a Bolt (or Blake), even for 40y, requires a skill set, not just talent.
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Re: Look out Usain Bolt..Terrell Sinkfield 40 yard Record 4.

Postby batonless relay » Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:37 pm

Marlow wrote: My point has always been that untrained (for track) fb players are not as fast as the very best track sprinters. They COULD be, if trained, but they're not. Running with a Bolt (or Blake), even for 40y, requires a skill set, not just talent.

your point is wrong; jazz is right. Only the elite of the elite of track and field sprinters could beat the top 3 or 4 football players. it would be a toss up with the next tier. unless, suddenly, 6.51 ability is no longer elite? :?
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Re: Look out Usain Bolt..Terrell Sinkfield 40 yard Record 4.

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:42 pm

Marlow wrote:Irrelevant? Not at all. Holliday is a HIGHLY trained track athlete. My point has always been that untrained (for track) fb players are not as fast as the very best track sprinters. They COULD be, if trained, but they're not. Running with a Bolt (or Blake), even for 40y, requires a skill set, not just talent.

Generally speaking, I agree with you which explains why three of the four 4.2 guys over the last eight years have at least a college track background, but one of the four, Chris Johnson, does not. How do you explain him?
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Re: Look out Usain Bolt..Terrell Sinkfield 40 yard Record 4.

Postby Marlow » Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:08 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:Chris Johnson, does not. How do you explain him?

As I said before, when he runs a legit 40 (FAT), I'll believe it (not that I don't think he isn't really quick - he is). Football 40s are not a legit criterion. HIs time there, vis-a-vis tracksters, are because THAT IS his milieu (turf and cleats, 3-point stance). But the times run there are virtually meaningless compared to what Bolt is running FAT.
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Re: Look out Usain Bolt..Terrell Sinkfield 40 yard Record 4.

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:18 pm

Marlow wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:Chris Johnson, does not. How do you explain him?

As I said before, when he runs a legit 40 (FAT), I'll believe it (not that I don't think he isn't really quick - he is). Football 40s are not a legit criterion. HIs time there, vis-a-vis tracksters, are because THAT IS his milieu (turf and cleats, 3-point stance). But the times run there are virtually meaningless compared to what Bolt is running FAT.

Now you're creating straw men. The whole thread is about football 40's, not track 60's and 100's. No one is arguing that Johnson is faster than elite sprinters in an IAAF sanction event, I'm talking about NFL sanctioned 40-yard dashes. Here are the incontrovertible facts:

    1) Holliday was faster the a peak-form Gay at 40 yards.
    2) Johnson was faster than Holliday at 40 yards at the NFL Combine by an amount outside the margin of error.
    Conclusion: In 2008, Johnson was faster than Gay in the football 40 (field turf, football cleats, no starting blocks).
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Re: Look out Usain Bolt..Terrell Sinkfield 40 yard Record 4.

Postby Marlow » Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:44 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:Now you're creating straw men.

In what YOU thought YOU were arguing. My point has always been the same and, since you have no data on a Chris Johnson FAT 40, unassailable. You can argue it all day long, but I remain unconvinced without actual pertinent data (F40s not being such).
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Re: Look out Usain Bolt..Terrell Sinkfield 40 yard Record 4.

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:36 pm

Marlow wrote:In what YOU thought YOU were arguing. My point has always been the same and, since you have no data on a Chris Johnson FAT 40, unassailable. You can argue it all day long, but I remain unconvinced without actual pertinent data (F40s not being such).

Okay! Now I get it. You reject the facts that contradict your point of view. :wink:
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