Oscar Pistorius suffers memory lapse


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Re: Inspector Clouseau - now - The debate on Oscar Pistorius

Postby marknhj » Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:15 pm

user4 - with respect, any chance of you giving your pro-deadly weapon agenda a break on this thread? You're blasting away at an already shot and well expired horse in your attempts to sway any opinions. It isn't going to happen.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau - now - The debate on Oscar Pistorius

Postby Conor Dary » Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:25 pm

marknhj wrote:user4 - with respect, any chance of you giving your pro-deadly weapon agenda a break on this thread? You're blasting away at an already shot and well expired horse in your attempts to sway any opinions. It isn't going to happen.


Amen to that!
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Re: Inspector Clouseau - now - The debate on Oscar Pistorius

Postby Dutra5 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:30 pm

I'll third the nomination.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau - now - The debate on Oscar Pistorius

Postby Pego » Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:50 pm

Yes, back to our beloved hero :twisted: .
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Re: Inspector Clouseau - now - The debate on Oscar Pistorius

Postby user4 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:30 pm

Dutra5 wrote:I'll third the nomination.


It is a deal, and sorry about that .. not being a gun owner this is the only way for me to shoot dead animals :)
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby mump boy » Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:10 pm

jeremyp wrote:
mump boy wrote:
user4 wrote: The firearm is one of the great civilizing tools largely because, as a defensive weapon, it neutralizes the aggression and strength advantage of males vs. females. The average time-to-arrival after a call to the police is not encouraging. Self defense is just common sense.


I don't know how we cope here in the UK :roll:

Now you know why you lost the colonies! :D


You say that like it's a bad thing :?
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Re: Inspector Clouseau - now - The debate on Oscar Pistorius

Postby kuha » Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:23 pm

Conor Dary wrote:
marknhj wrote:user4 - with respect, any chance of you giving your pro-deadly weapon agenda a break on this thread? You're blasting away at an already shot and well expired horse in your attempts to sway any opinions. It isn't going to happen.


Amen to that!


Yes, me too. Marknhj is way more diplomatic on this subject than I could be.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau - now - The debate on Oscar Pistorius

Postby dukehjsteve » Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:22 pm

His use of the phrase " the firearm is one of the great civilizing tools..." blew ( pun intended) me away !!!
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Re: Inspector Clouseau - now - The debate on Oscar Pistorius

Postby user4 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:58 pm

dukehjsteve wrote:His use of the phrase " the firearm is one of the great civilizing tools..." blew ( pun intended) me away !!!


I dont know that there ever was a civilization where the small or small in number, the frail, the physically weaker along with groups of females were not able to protect themselves, and their property, by means of various clever self defense apparatus. Likely from homo habilis to the present, this has been a natural feature of humans and a hallmark of civilization's progress. Through countless millenia these tools have allowed people to travel and conduct trade to the mutual benefit of others without fear of being murdered, raped, raided or looted. The firearm is simply another variant, a minor advance, the most recent such tool.
Last edited by user4 on Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau - now - The debate on Oscar Pistorius

Postby berkeley » Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:06 pm

user4 wrote:
dukehjsteve wrote:His use of the phrase " the firearm is one of the great civilizing tools..." blew ( pun intended) me away !!!


I dont know that there ever was a civilization where the small or small in number, the frail, the physically weaker along with groups of females were not able to protect themselves, and their property, by means of various clever self defense apparatus.

I prefer to think of this scenario as evolving societies aspiring to be civilizations. We'll truly achieve a civilized state when there is no longer a need for such protection. I'm not small, weak or a female, and yet I don't feel any compulsion to attack them or their property, and I think the vast majority feel the same way. The fact that a few deviants still do (far fewer than in times past) is not a problem we can solve by arming everyone.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau - now - The debate on Oscar Pistorius

Postby Daisy » Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:32 pm

berkeley wrote:The fact that a few deviants still do (far fewer than in times past) is not a problem we can solve by arming everyone.

Note that Mrs Lanza thought she was safer.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby Tuariki » Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:36 pm

user4 wrote:
Tuariki wrote:
mump boy wrote:
user4 wrote: The firearm is one of the great civilizing tools largely because, as a defensive weapon, it neutralizes the aggression and strength advantage of males vs. females. The average time-to-arrival after a call to the police is not encouraging. Self defense is just common sense.


I don't know how we cope here in the UK :roll:

Same. I am quite happy living in my uncivilized country.

I note that since the terrible events of Sandy Hook there have been about 2,000 cases of aggression neutralizing in the US.


It might be worth taking a look at controlled studies of homicide rates across areas where gun prohibitions are in effect and contrast this with those rates where guns are lawful and accessible. Things can vary wildly across cultures, here is a rough sketch of homicide rates worldwide,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... icide_rate


The rate of intentional homicides per 100,000 population in that table shows:
0.9 - New Zealand
4.8 - USA
31.8- South Africa
The USA rate is 5.3 times higher than New Zealand

However, another Wikipedia table shows the rate per 100,000 population for intentional homicide by guns as:
0.17 - New Zealand
3.20 - USA
17.00 - USA
The USA rate is 18.8 times higher than New Zealand

So much for the "civilisation" of the USA gun ownership laws in protecting its citizens.

Still, the USA is a hell of a lot safer place than South Africa.


Many New Zealanders have firearms, mostly rifles for hunting and shotguns for duck shooting. But we have very strict licensing laws as to who can own them. And it is illegal to carry weapons. Pistols are pretty much a no no.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby Tuariki » Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:46 pm

mump boy wrote:
jeremyp wrote:
mump boy wrote:
user4 wrote: The firearm is one of the great civilizing tools largely because, as a defensive weapon, it neutralizes the aggression and strength advantage of males vs. females. The average time-to-arrival after a call to the police is not encouraging. Self defense is just common sense.


I don't know how we cope here in the UK :roll:

Now you know why you lost the colonies! :D


You say that like it's a bad thing :?

Don't worry mump. You still got a colony of sorts on the other side of the world. Our laws still tell us that the Queen of New Zealand is some old lady who lives in a big stone house on the other side of the world who has been to New Zealand 10 times.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau - now - The debate on Oscar Pistorius

Postby Tuariki » Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:05 pm

With the murder rate in South Africa being so incredibly high one can understand the paranoia that grips many of the South African population and the extent to which they go to barricade themselves inside mini fortresses surrounded by all manner of weaponry.

And so OP's likely (IMO) defense of paranoia may well resonate with many South Africans. IMO the outrage and hysteria is driven to a large extent because the victim was a gorgeously beautiful (in character as well as physically) white girl. I doubt there would be too much interest if OP's victim had been a black house maid.

Life is pretty cheap in South Africa and a number of sports stars have gotten away with murder in the past.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby polevaultpower » Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:30 am

Dutra5 wrote:
Tuariki wrote:
Dutra5 wrote:
Tuariki wrote:
If you are in SA I guess PVP will have to be your lawyer, given they have no juries.


We can promote her directly to judgeship.

And with her pole beside her she will be able to easily reach out and give a friendly "tap", or not so friendly as the case may be, to any of the lawyers getting out of line.


A whack would be so much more entertaining. :D


Haha thanks guys :lol:
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby mump boy » Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:44 am

Tuariki wrote:Don't worry mump. You still got a colony of sorts on the other side of the world. Our laws still tell us that the Queen of New Zealand is some old lady who lives in a big stone house on the other side of the world who has been to New Zealand 10 times.
\

Hopefully she'll stay there next time and take her whole scrounger family with her, you're very welcome to them all
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Re: Inspector Clouseau - now - The debate on Oscar Pistorius

Postby mump boy » Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:48 am

The link to murder rates makes it very clear that they are massively effected by medical care in different countries so are totally skewed by countries with better emergency care. US healthcare system may be far from desirable to many of us but there are lots of countries that don't have any at all.

Those statistics don't mean anything only that US is comparatively higher than many countries were people die unnecessarily.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau - now - The debate on Oscar Pistorius

Postby Pego » Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:08 am

user4 wrote:
dukehjsteve wrote:His use of the phrase " the firearm is one of the great civilizing tools..." blew ( pun intended) me away !!!


I dont know that there ever was a civilization where the small or small in number, the frail, the physically weaker along with groups of females were not able to protect themselves, and their property, by means of various clever self defense apparatus. Likely from homo habilis to the present, this has been a natural feature of human and a hallmark of civilizations progress. Through countless millenia it has allowed people to travel and conduct trade to the mutual benefit of others without fear of being murdered, raped, raided or looted. The firearm is simply the most recent such tool.


Sorry user4, that women throughout history have been able to protect themselves against rapist, muggers...by means of weaponry of any kind is fantasy, they never have. The only thing that has always protected them to some degree have been male family/clan members and in the recent history, a functional state.

If the administration so desires, there could be a spin-off thread for a "civilization" debate, so there is no hijacking of this one again.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby shivfan » Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:26 am

mump boy wrote:
Tuariki wrote:Don't worry mump. You still got a colony of sorts on the other side of the world. Our laws still tell us that the Queen of New Zealand is some old lady who lives in a big stone house on the other side of the world who has been to New Zealand 10 times.
\

Hopefully she'll stay there next time and take her whole scrounger family with her, you're very welcome to them all

:lol:
Seconded....
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Re: Inspector Clouseau - now - The debate on Oscar Pistorius

Postby mal » Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:28 am

Enter the cricket bat
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Re: Inspector Clouseau - now - The debate on Oscar Pistorius

Postby user4 » Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:06 am

mump boy wrote:The link to murder rates makes it very clear that they are massively effected by medical care in different countries so are totally skewed by countries with better emergency care. US healthcare system may be far from desirable to many of us but there are lots of countries that don't have any at all.

Those statistics don't mean anything only that US is comparatively higher than many countries were people die unnecessarily.


We can probably agree that all homicides are unnecessary. In the US however we notice that many areas exhibiting the greatest violent crime rates, far exceeding the US national average, are areas with strict gun bans. I dont know if medical care tells a significant part of the story, for instance a homicide attempt in the US where the life is saved by an EMT is still categorized as a violent assault, perhaps even an attempted murder.

Having ideals that civilization will someday make the murderer obsolete is a great ideal, it is a wonderful futuristic hypothesis, it is a moral aspiration worthy of an English gentleman. Unfortunately the present does not conform to that ideal. If you are the victim of a violent assault it can be life ending. That is a risk that a calculating honest person may chose to minimize by firearm in his/her home.

Pego wrote:Sorry user4, that women throughout history have been able to protect themselves against rapist, muggers...by means of weaponry of any kind is fantasy, they never have. The only thing that has always protected them to some degree have been male family/clan members and in the recent history, a functional state.


Yes, they have and actually highly functioning states have been some of the greatest perpetrators of raiding/robbery/rape/assault/murder. The biological/culture value of females is obviously indispensable and the core of any people. That men in a culture would protect their females goes without saying. That equalizing apparatus such as arms, that make the risks very high for the grown male marauder/raper/looter has been a deterrent and advanced civilization guarantees is obvious. There is no reason for someone's present distaste for firearms to cloud these observation. Yes, certainly family ties are a powerful incentive for protection and males will protect their familial females (daughters/sisters/spouse) to the death, that is nature. That they will do so more effectively than the unarmed female can against large numerous adult males does not change the value of arms to raise the risks to the assailant. Each human will take account of the risks he/she faces and will determine how they are to stay safe. Telling other persons how they can defend themselves in their own home under attack seems against nature to some of us. The least one can do is offer an alternative solution that protects the life of innocents other than wait for the police and EMT to arrive in a few hours to make a report.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau - now - The debate on Oscar Pistorius

Postby gibson » Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:10 am

the murder rates for armed to the teeth israel and switzerland are near zero.
same as in eastern canada where farmers have weapons.

psychos from the x-military and ghetto with guns are the real problem.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau - now - The debate on Oscar Pistorius

Postby Pego » Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:24 am

user4 wrote:a lot


Your mastery of obfuscation by eloquence is admirable :wink: :D .
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Re: Inspector Clouseau - now - The debate on Oscar Pistorius

Postby iain » Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:20 am

gibson wrote:the murder rates for armed to the teeth israel ... are near zero.


Officially that is!
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Re: Inspector Clouseau - now - The debate on Oscar Pistorius

Postby Daisy » Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:29 am

On Feb 27th 2013 the Guardian wrote:A shooting at a wood-processing company in central Switzerland has left three people dead and seven wounded, some of them seriously, prosecutors say.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/fe ... d-shooting


They go on:
An estimated 2.3m firearms are owned by the country's 8 million people.

But gun crime is relatively rare, with just 24 gun killings in 2009, a rate of about 0.3 per 100,000 inhabitants. The US rate that year was about 11 times higher.

Still, there have been several high-profile incidents over the years, including the killing of 14 people at a city council meeting in Zug, not far from Lucerne, in 2001.

Last month a 33-year-old man killed three women and wounded two men in a southern Swiss village.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau - now - The debate on Oscar Pistorius

Postby user4 » Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:28 am

more information might be helpful,

Consider the fact that a very large proportion of gun related deaths in the US are actually suicides,

http://www.suicide.org/suicide-statistics.html

Consider that suicide rates in general between the UK and the US are not all that different.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... icide_rate

So a "gun related deaths" statistic can be a conflation of highly disparate issues. The UK suicidal person is simply more likely to poison or hang himself rather than shoot himself. Conversely measuring gun related deaths in the US compared to say the UK may be misleading. It is worth reading more of the details behind the statistics before jumping to conclusions.

Related to all of this, someone might decide that an area/country/county with a .2% suicide rate (and a near zero homicide rate) would be a far superior place to live than one with a .1% violent homicide rate (with even no suicides) though there were 2X as many deaths (per unit of population) in the former.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau - now - The debate on Oscar Pistorius

Postby marknhj » Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:46 am

user4 wrote:more information might be helpful,


What the fuck are you talking about now? And why is suicide at all relevant to this thread at all? I'll answer that for you. It isn't.

Your preposterous theories probably include the belief that troubled Brits and historically-associated country folk sometimes commit suicide by whacking themselves in the head with a cricket bat :roll:
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Re: Inspector Clouseau - now - The debate on Oscar Pistorius

Postby Pego » Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:41 pm

A plea to gh not to lock this thread. Remove the last couple of posts and let the thread live.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau - now - The debate on Oscar Pistorius

Postby Conor Dary » Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:44 pm

Pego wrote:A plea to gh not to lock this thread. Remove the last couple of posts and let the thread live.


I agree. It has got way off track.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau - now - The debate on Oscar Pistorius

Postby batonless relay » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:22 pm

since we are trying to get back to the case

Testis compositum was the substance found at the home that was initially said to be steroids. It is sometimes used as a male enhancement drug.

Oscar Pistorius' representatives named the substance found in his bedroom after the shooting death of his girlfriend as Testis compositum on Wednesday and said it is an herbal remedy used "in aid of muscle recovery."

A product called Testis compositum is also marketed online in both oral and injectable forms as a testosterone booster and a sexual enhancer. Some online retailers also say it can be used to treat tiredness.

Pistorius' lawyers, through his public relations firm, did not give details as to whether the product they named was the same one marketed in the U.S. as a sexual enhancer with pig testicles, pig heart and pig embryo among its ingredients.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ol ... d/1951159/
Last edited by batonless relay on Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau - now - The debate on Oscar Pistorius

Postby Daisy » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:37 pm

batonless relay wrote:It is a male enhancement drug, which means he could have been banned had he been caught like LaShawn Merritt

Not sure we can assume this, since they are different products.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau - now - The debate on Oscar Pistorius

Postby batonless relay » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:39 pm

Daisy wrote:
batonless relay wrote:It is a male enhancement drug, which means he could have been banned had he been caught like LaShawn Merritt

Not sure we can assume this, since they are different products.

good point. i will change it.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau - now - The debate on Oscar Pistorius

Postby user4 » Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:17 pm

marknhj wrote:
user4 wrote:more information might be helpful,


What the fuck are you talking about now? And why is suicide at all relevant to this thread at all? I'll answer that for you. It isn't.

Your preposterous theories probably include the belief that troubled Brits and historically-associated country folk sometimes commit suicide by whacking themselves in the head with a cricket bat :roll:


I get the strange feeling you dont read anything I actually write. You simply respond to it as if i wrote something that clearly exposed my pen was a felonious weapon or worse that I slandered the sport of cricket :) . For the record I would like to plead not guilty to both of those charges :).
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Re: Inspector Clouseau - now - The debate on Oscar Pistorius

Postby Blues » Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:27 am

batonless relay wrote:since we are trying to get back to the case

Testis compositum was the substance found at the home that was initially said to be steroids. It is sometimes used as a male enhancement drug.

Oscar Pistorius' representatives named the substance found in his bedroom after the shooting death of his girlfriend as Testis compositum on Wednesday and said it is an herbal remedy used "in aid of muscle recovery."

A product called Testis compositum is also marketed online in both oral and injectable forms as a testosterone booster and a sexual enhancer. Some online retailers also say it can be used to treat tiredness.

Pistorius' lawyers, through his public relations firm, did not give details as to whether the product they named was the same one marketed in the U.S. as a sexual enhancer with pig testicles, pig heart and pig embryo among its ingredients.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ol ... d/1951159/


Also, we should keep in mind that it's only Pistorius' lawyers who are stating that the substance was Testis compositum. The official police lab analysis report of the substance in Pistorius' vials and syringes hasn't been released yet... And even if Testis compositum is marketed as a male enhancement product, it doesn't necessarily have to contain a substance that's currently banned, as Daisy already pointed out.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau - now - The debate on Oscar Pistorius

Postby Tuariki » Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:46 am

user4 wrote:I get the strange feeling you dont read anything I actually write. You simply respond to it as if i wrote something that clearly exposed my pen was a felonious weapon or worse that I slandered the sport of cricket :) . For the record I would like to plead not guilty to both of those charges :).

Cricket? What is there to slander. Only the Brits would invent a game that you can play for 5 days and still not get a result.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau - now - The debate on Oscar Pistorius

Postby dec7000 » Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:02 am

Blues wrote:
batonless relay wrote:since we are trying to get back to the case

Testis compositum was the substance found at the home that was initially said to be steroids. It is sometimes used as a male enhancement drug.

Oscar Pistorius' representatives named the substance found in his bedroom after the shooting death of his girlfriend as Testis compositum on Wednesday and said it is an herbal remedy used "in aid of muscle recovery."

A product called Testis compositum is also marketed online in both oral and injectable forms as a testosterone booster and a sexual enhancer. Some online retailers also say it can be used to treat tiredness.

Pistorius' lawyers, through his public relations firm, did not give details as to whether the product they named was the same one marketed in the U.S. as a sexual enhancer with pig testicles, pig heart and pig embryo among its ingredients.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ol ... d/1951159/


Also, we should keep in mind that it's only Pistorius' lawyers who are stating that the substance was Testis compositum. The official police lab analysis report of the substance in Pistorius' vials and syringes hasn't been released yet... And even if Testis compositum is marketed as a male enhancement product, it doesn't necessarily have to contain a substance that's currently banned, as Daisy already pointed out.


One of the many "ingredients" of Testis Compostium, although usually legal, is prohibited if injected. He does, though, have more serious offences to worry about!
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Re: Inspector Clouseau - now - The debate on Oscar Pistorius

Postby Blues » Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:41 am

dec7000 wrote:
Blues wrote:
batonless relay wrote:since we are trying to get back to the case

Testis compositum was the substance found at the home that was initially said to be steroids. It is sometimes used as a male enhancement drug.

Oscar Pistorius' representatives named the substance found in his bedroom after the shooting death of his girlfriend as Testis compositum on Wednesday and said it is an herbal remedy used "in aid of muscle recovery."

A product called Testis compositum is also marketed online in both oral and injectable forms as a testosterone booster and a sexual enhancer. Some online retailers also say it can be used to treat tiredness.

Pistorius' lawyers, through his public relations firm, did not give details as to whether the product they named was the same one marketed in the U.S. as a sexual enhancer with pig testicles, pig heart and pig embryo among its ingredients.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ol ... d/1951159/


Also, we should keep in mind that it's only Pistorius' lawyers who are stating that the substance was Testis compositum. The official police lab analysis report of the substance in Pistorius' vials and syringes hasn't been released yet... And even if Testis compositum is marketed as a male enhancement product, it doesn't necessarily have to contain a substance that's currently banned, as Daisy already pointed out.


One of the many "ingredients" of Testis Compostium, although usually legal, is prohibited if injected. He does, though, have more serious offences to worry about!


For my own knowledge and information, can you tell me what ingredient it would be, and whether it's also prohibited out of competition as well as in competition? Does it involve the tiny amount of anabolic steroids in the diluted pig testicles extract? (If so, wouldn't that be prohibited via oral use too?) (Below is the link to the diluted ingredients contained in Testis compositum injection.)

http://www.homotoxicology.net/matmed/combo/Ind4lgrh.htm
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Re: Inspector Clouseau - now - The debate on Oscar Pistorius

Postby Tuariki » Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:43 am

I watched the ABC 20/20 "The fast times of Oscar Pistorius" on YouTube. Interesting. Sad. And IMO reinforces the paranoia schizophrenia mentalities of the guy. Hope he goes away for a long time.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau - now - The debate on Oscar Pistorius

Postby Pego » Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:26 pm

Blues wrote:
For my own knowledge and information, can you tell me what ingredient it would be, and whether it's also prohibited out of competition as well as in competition? Does it involve the tiny amount of anabolic steroids in the diluted pig testicles extract? (If so, wouldn't that be prohibited via oral use too?) (Below is the link to the diluted ingredients contained in Testis compositum injection.)

http://www.homotoxicology.net/matmed/combo/Ind4lgrh.htm


I love the list of ingredients/indications in this concoction, especially some cactus extract. It is good for depression and vaginal discharge. Woof!
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Re: Inspector Clouseau - now - The debate on Oscar Pistorius

Postby batonless relay » Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:49 am

There still has not been enough facts to say he's either paranoid or schizophrenic, but if he's a paranoid schizophrenic based upon his gun ownership then it runs in the family. I will stick with the avid gun owner for now.
The gun collectors' club, the Lowveld Firearm Collectors Association, which the runner joined last April said Pistorius also owned but hadn't yet licensed six other firearms for his gun collection.
South Africa's Beeld newspaper reported that the runner's father, three uncles and grandfather also own 55 firearms between them -- ranging from handguns to rifles.
"Some of the guns are for hunting and some are for protection, the hand guns," the Telegraph quoted Henke Pistorius as saying.


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/03/05 ... z2Mg1YMJDt
batonless relay
 
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