A place for the discussion of all things not closely related to the sport and its competitive side. (Locked down several times a year during the major championships)
bad hammy wrote:I've spent most of my adult life living in Oakland, CA. Most folks in Oakland buying six guns at a time are probably not folks you would want to hang out with. And I am much more concerned with their ability to buy these arsenals than I am any inconvenience a collector or hunter might have if the government makes it a bit tougher to purchase their toys.
If he is a criminal capable of armed robbery, murder or some other violent crime is he going to be worried about acquiring a gun outside the strict letter of the law ? Most guys of that type are breaking countless laws and gun laws already. You can add one more but it is likely not going to reduce crime. Do criminals have guns that can be traced back to them, certainly not the shrewdest and craftiest among them.
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If you buy six guns in a short period of time, and the guns are not for training for your job or using on the job, you're probably a criminal or a nutcase who is going to do something stupid with one of those guns someday, and I would want to stay far away from you.
Wrong. You're ignoring a not insubstantial part of the populace: those who collect things. Stamps, coins, knives, guns, you name it. There are no end of normal people who have all kind of guns that they may never even shoot. (for the record, my gut feel is that Pistorious is not one of these, but you're tarring with a way too wide a brush here)
OK, I'll agree that collectors of antique guns aren't to be painted with the same brush. But my view still holds for others who buy 6 guns in a month for non-occupational use, to be used only by their lone self (i.e. not shared with 5 family members) and they're not an octopus.
Sure I'll be wrong a lot of the time, but this is a matter of life and death and I'll be right enough of the time that staying away from such people and keeping my family away from them is a good strategy if I want to live long.
user4 wrote: The firearm is one of the great civilizing tools largely because, as a defensive weapon, it neutralizes the aggression and strength advantage of males vs. females. The average time-to-arrival after a call to the police is not encouraging. Self defense is just common sense.
I don't know how we cope here in the UK
Same. I am quite happy living in my uncivilized country.
I note that since the terrible events of Sandy Hook there have been about 2,000 cases of aggression neutralizing in the US.
gh wrote:Nowhere did I say collectors had to go for antiques. The fascination is basically the same for modern weaponry.
Oh definitely. If we had loads of cash sitting around and Lukas had stable employment, I'm sure we would have far more guns/ammo/accessories in the house. He can spend hours looking at guns online. He loves to watch youtube videos of people blowing stuff up with guns.
Fortunately, I married a man with some self-control.
user4 wrote: The firearm is one of the great civilizing tools largely because, as a defensive weapon, it neutralizes the aggression and strength advantage of males vs. females. The average time-to-arrival after a call to the police is not encouraging. Self defense is just common sense.
I don't know how we cope here in the UK
Same. I am quite happy living in my uncivilized country.
I note that since the terrible events of Sandy Hook there have been about 2,000 cases of aggression neutralizing in the US.
It might be worth taking a look at controlled studies of homicide rates across areas where gun prohibitions are in effect and contrast this with those rates where guns are lawful and accessible. Things can vary wildly across cultures, here is a rough sketch of homicide rates worldwide, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... icide_rate
Regarding the UK, it was once a fundamental right to have arms for one's defense. Gladstone, considered it a natural right, that is, it was a right that government's can not grant but rather that they can only usurp,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politi ... ed_Kingdom "The fifth and last auxiliary right of the subject, that I shall at present mention, is that of having arms for their defence, suitable to their condition and degree, and such as are allowed by law. Which is also declared by the same statute I W. & M. st.2. c.2. and is indeed a public allowance, under due restrictions, of the natural right of resistance and self-preservation, when the sanctions of society and laws are found insufficient to restrain the violence of oppression."
gh wrote:Nowhere did I say collectors had to go for antiques. The fascination is basically the same for modern weaponry.
And that fascination is why I consider them too dangerous for me to be around. Of course, that has no bearing on whether you or anybody else wants to be around them or be like them.
Dutra5 wrote: PVP...I can't decide if I'd rather have you as my lawyer or on my jury.
If you are in SA I guess PVP will have to be your lawyer, given they have no juries.
We can promote her directly to judgeship.
And with her pole beside her she will be able to easily reach out and give a friendly "tap", or not so friendly as the case may be, to any of the lawyers getting out of line.
user4 wrote: The firearm is one of the great civilizing tools largely because, as a defensive weapon, it neutralizes the aggression and strength advantage of males vs. females. The average time-to-arrival after a call to the police is not encouraging. Self defense is just common sense.
Dutra5 wrote: PVP...I can't decide if I'd rather have you as my lawyer or on my jury.
If you are in SA I guess PVP will have to be your lawyer, given they have no juries.
We can promote her directly to judgeship.
And with her pole beside her she will be able to easily reach out and give a friendly "tap", or not so friendly as the case may be, to any of the lawyers getting out of line.
I was in a cadet force in HS in the UK and shot. I was in the ROTC in College and shot. Ditto for my stint in the Army. Haven't owned a gun since, and have had no need to. However I would buy one if I ever lived in an area with a high crime rate, although I would have to convince my wife to do so. The 2d amendment is alive and well in the US, but it has been hijacked by those too high on steroids and paranoia. Shooting clubs/hunting fine! Everybody who owns guns should have them registered and should not be allowed to sell them without proper paperwork, just like a car. No-one should be allowed a weapon that is primarily a military weapon unless they join a gun club and the weapon is secured there. I had a Spanish American war rifle on the wall in college and was told to remove the firing pin. No problem(o?) Now as to inner cities and gangs I would allow Mayors to have stringent laws that would allow them to curb the mayhem. Let the Mayors and the Police chiefs guide those laws to fruition and screw the NRA. 2 cents Kaching!
jeremyp wrote:I was in a cadet force in HS in the UK and shot. I was in the ROTC in College and shot. Ditto for my stint in the Army. Haven't owned a gun since, and have had no need to. However I would buy one if I ever lived in an area with a high crime rate, although I would have to convince my wife to do so. The 2d amendment is alive and well in the US, but it has been hijacked by those too high on steroids and paranoia. Shooting clubs/hunting fine! Everybody who owns guns should have them registered and should not be allowed to sell them without proper paperwork, just like a car. No-one should be allowed a weapon that is primarily a military weapon unless they join a gun club and the weapon is secured there. I had a Spanish American war rifle on the wall in college and was told to remove the firing pin. No problem(o?) Now as to inner cities and gangs I would allow Mayors to have stringent laws that would allow them to curb the mayhem. Let the Mayors and the Police chiefs guide those laws to fruition and screw the NRA. 2 cents Kaching!
Great points all around, but there is one knot that wont go away, the data suggests that stringent gun control in inner cities has done nothing to curb the mayhem. It may actually exacerbate it. While the efforts at gun control may have done more harm than good it was certainly an honest effort on the part of city governments to give it a try. There are likely many factors that contribute to high crime in wealthy western cities but while stringent gun control laws effect to make the law abiding defenseless they have not reduced crime. Intuition tells me that humans must have a right to defend themselves in a way that is organic to their own constitution/makeup and just as importantly their circumstances. If they prefer firearms then that is a reasonable choice. People will defend themselves best when they are the ones determining the details. But it also seems obvious that people should not have to live in real fear that their neighbor's arsenal is going to blow up and destroy them. That is reasonable and so there must be reasonable restraints that society places on the right to keep and bear ammunition and other hazardous materials. If you have many arms and more importantly much ammunition in your home you should be forced to show that it is safe and secure and well kept. If you cant do that then your neighbors may exercise their rights to secure their home from accidental mayhem.
user4 - with respect, any chance of you giving your pro-deadly weapon agenda a break on this thread? You're blasting away at an already shot and well expired horse in your attempts to sway any opinions. It isn't going to happen.
marknhj wrote:user4 - with respect, any chance of you giving your pro-deadly weapon agenda a break on this thread? You're blasting away at an already shot and well expired horse in your attempts to sway any opinions. It isn't going to happen.
user4 wrote: The firearm is one of the great civilizing tools largely because, as a defensive weapon, it neutralizes the aggression and strength advantage of males vs. females. The average time-to-arrival after a call to the police is not encouraging. Self defense is just common sense.
marknhj wrote:user4 - with respect, any chance of you giving your pro-deadly weapon agenda a break on this thread? You're blasting away at an already shot and well expired horse in your attempts to sway any opinions. It isn't going to happen.
Amen to that!
Yes, me too. Marknhj is way more diplomatic on this subject than I could be.
dukehjsteve wrote:His use of the phrase " the firearm is one of the great civilizing tools..." blew ( pun intended) me away !!!
I dont know that there ever was a civilization where the small or small in number, the frail, the physically weaker along with groups of females were not able to protect themselves, and their property, by means of various clever self defense apparatus. Likely from homo habilis to the present, this has been a natural feature of humans and a hallmark of civilization's progress. Through countless millenia these tools have allowed people to travel and conduct trade to the mutual benefit of others without fear of being murdered, raped, raided or looted. The firearm is simply another variant, a minor advance, the most recent such tool.
Last edited by user4 on Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
dukehjsteve wrote:His use of the phrase " the firearm is one of the great civilizing tools..." blew ( pun intended) me away !!!
I dont know that there ever was a civilization where the small or small in number, the frail, the physically weaker along with groups of females were not able to protect themselves, and their property, by means of various clever self defense apparatus.
I prefer to think of this scenario as evolving societies aspiring to be civilizations. We'll truly achieve a civilized state when there is no longer a need for such protection. I'm not small, weak or a female, and yet I don't feel any compulsion to attack them or their property, and I think the vast majority feel the same way. The fact that a few deviants still do (far fewer than in times past) is not a problem we can solve by arming everyone.
user4 wrote: The firearm is one of the great civilizing tools largely because, as a defensive weapon, it neutralizes the aggression and strength advantage of males vs. females. The average time-to-arrival after a call to the police is not encouraging. Self defense is just common sense.
I don't know how we cope here in the UK
Same. I am quite happy living in my uncivilized country.
I note that since the terrible events of Sandy Hook there have been about 2,000 cases of aggression neutralizing in the US.
It might be worth taking a look at controlled studies of homicide rates across areas where gun prohibitions are in effect and contrast this with those rates where guns are lawful and accessible. Things can vary wildly across cultures, here is a rough sketch of homicide rates worldwide, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... icide_rate
The rate of intentional homicides per 100,000 population in that table shows: 0.9 - New Zealand 4.8 - USA 31.8- South Africa The USA rate is 5.3 times higher than New Zealand
However, another Wikipedia table shows the rate per 100,000 population for intentional homicide by guns as: 0.17 - New Zealand 3.20 - USA 17.00 - USA The USA rate is 18.8 times higher than New Zealand
So much for the "civilisation" of the USA gun ownership laws in protecting its citizens.
Still, the USA is a hell of a lot safer place than South Africa.
Many New Zealanders have firearms, mostly rifles for hunting and shotguns for duck shooting. But we have very strict licensing laws as to who can own them. And it is illegal to carry weapons. Pistols are pretty much a no no.
user4 wrote: The firearm is one of the great civilizing tools largely because, as a defensive weapon, it neutralizes the aggression and strength advantage of males vs. females. The average time-to-arrival after a call to the police is not encouraging. Self defense is just common sense.
I don't know how we cope here in the UK
Now you know why you lost the colonies!
You say that like it's a bad thing
Don't worry mump. You still got a colony of sorts on the other side of the world. Our laws still tell us that the Queen of New Zealand is some old lady who lives in a big stone house on the other side of the world who has been to New Zealand 10 times.
With the murder rate in South Africa being so incredibly high one can understand the paranoia that grips many of the South African population and the extent to which they go to barricade themselves inside mini fortresses surrounded by all manner of weaponry.
And so OP's likely (IMO) defense of paranoia may well resonate with many South Africans. IMO the outrage and hysteria is driven to a large extent because the victim was a gorgeously beautiful (in character as well as physically) white girl. I doubt there would be too much interest if OP's victim had been a black house maid.
Life is pretty cheap in South Africa and a number of sports stars have gotten away with murder in the past.
Tuariki wrote: If you are in SA I guess PVP will have to be your lawyer, given they have no juries.
We can promote her directly to judgeship.
And with her pole beside her she will be able to easily reach out and give a friendly "tap", or not so friendly as the case may be, to any of the lawyers getting out of line.
Tuariki wrote:Don't worry mump. You still got a colony of sorts on the other side of the world. Our laws still tell us that the Queen of New Zealand is some old lady who lives in a big stone house on the other side of the world who has been to New Zealand 10 times.
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Hopefully she'll stay there next time and take her whole scrounger family with her, you're very welcome to them all
The link to murder rates makes it very clear that they are massively effected by medical care in different countries so are totally skewed by countries with better emergency care. US healthcare system may be far from desirable to many of us but there are lots of countries that don't have any at all.
Those statistics don't mean anything only that US is comparatively higher than many countries were people die unnecessarily.
dukehjsteve wrote:His use of the phrase " the firearm is one of the great civilizing tools..." blew ( pun intended) me away !!!
I dont know that there ever was a civilization where the small or small in number, the frail, the physically weaker along with groups of females were not able to protect themselves, and their property, by means of various clever self defense apparatus. Likely from homo habilis to the present, this has been a natural feature of human and a hallmark of civilizations progress. Through countless millenia it has allowed people to travel and conduct trade to the mutual benefit of others without fear of being murdered, raped, raided or looted. The firearm is simply the most recent such tool.
Sorry user4, that women throughout history have been able to protect themselves against rapist, muggers...by means of weaponry of any kind is fantasy, they never have. The only thing that has always protected them to some degree have been male family/clan members and in the recent history, a functional state.
If the administration so desires, there could be a spin-off thread for a "civilization" debate, so there is no hijacking of this one again.
Tuariki wrote:Don't worry mump. You still got a colony of sorts on the other side of the world. Our laws still tell us that the Queen of New Zealand is some old lady who lives in a big stone house on the other side of the world who has been to New Zealand 10 times.
\
Hopefully she'll stay there next time and take her whole scrounger family with her, you're very welcome to them all
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