Oscar Pistorius suffers memory lapse


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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby polevaultpower » Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:25 am

Pego wrote:
polevaultpower wrote:We don't know if that is what happened or not, but it is possible that Reeva believed OP that there was an intruder, and was hidden in the bathroom to protect herself, having no idea that OP thought _she_ was the intruder. She may have died believing an intruder shot her.


Pistorius said that he was screaming at Reeva to call the police. How could she mistake that for a burglar and remain quiet in the bathroom?


If I'm Reeva, and _if_ his version of events is true, I am assuming that he has actually seen an intruder, and I'm thinking that I don't want the burglar to know where I am because I don't want to get kidnapped/raped/murdered.

As far as how could OP not realize she was not in bed? If you have a dark room, a fluffy comforter, and you're in full panic mode, it could be easy to see lumps in the comforter out of the corner of your eye and assume she was there. I doubt she neatly made the bed before she got up to pee. One time in college I was at an away meet, and when I went to go to bed, I thought my bedmate had snuck her boyfriend in, so I slept on the couch. I was wrong.


And for the record, even if everything OP says is true, he still deserves to be locked up in jail IMO. Believing his story doesn't mean that you think he deserves no punishment.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby 18.99s » Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:02 am

mump boy wrote:Why would they lock themselves in a bathroom cubicle ?

To avoid detection upon realizing the resident is nearby and moving around.

That happened to somebody I know. She came home one day, and was somewhat puzzled to see the bathroom door shut since she lived alone at the time and normally leaves it open after using it. She opened the door and out jumped a burglar. He threw her down (without causing injury, fortunately) and ran through the house and out the front door.

I've also read of burglars hiding in the closet, like this one:
http://www.modbee.com/2012/11/05/244286 ... ng-in.html

So hiding in bathrooms or closets is something that real-life burglars do; it's not far-fetched to expect that a burglar might do that.

Where Pistorius went wrong is with making the unreasonable assumption that a burglar is in the bathroom, when he knew Reeva was spending the night and didn't check where she was. If she had snuck into the house, he'd have a good chance of not being prosecuted, like the guy who shot his daughter after she left her friend's house and snuck back into her family's house and hid in the closet.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby 18.99s » Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:36 am

polevaultpower wrote:And for the record, even if everything OP says is true, he still deserves to be locked up in jail IMO. Believing his story doesn't mean that you think he deserves no punishment.


If everything happened 100% exactly as he described it, he's guilty of manslaughter (or "culpable homicide" as they call it in South Africa). He was negligent in firing at the door without first taking reasonable steps to determine who was or wasn't behind the door, like checking the bed instead of assuming she was still in the bed.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby 18.99s » Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:42 am

batonless relay wrote:Multiple gun ownership, at least in the USA, does not mean that someone is either paranoid or schizophrenic.


If you buy six guns in a short period of time, and the guns are not for training for your job or using on the job, you're probably a criminal or a nutcase who is going to do something stupid with one of those guns someday, and I would want to stay far away from you.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby batonless relay » Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:00 am

18.99s wrote:
batonless relay wrote:Multiple gun ownership, at least in the USA, does not mean that someone is either paranoid or schizophrenic.


If you buy six guns in a short period of time, and the guns are not for training for your job or using on the job, you're probably a criminal or a nutcase who is going to do something stupid with one of those guns someday, and I would want to stay far away from you.

I agree that they're probably going to do something stupid one day (though they obviously might not) but that doesn't mean that they're a criminal, paranoid or even schizophrenic. I see gun ownership for some people similar to how I see some people who buy the largest SUV's or biggest engine or Rottweiler or Pit Bull dogs; it's this need to be more powerful than they are or need to be.

I don't always agree with this guy, and i'm not trying to get in a debate about gun ownership, pro or con, but I think most can agree that Jason Whitlock was right when he said:
Handguns do not enhance our safety. They exacerbate our flaws, tempt us to escalate arguments, and bait us into embracing confrontation rather than avoiding it.

Whether there was a burglar there or not, whether the young couple had a fight or not, Reeva Steenkamp would most likely be alive today if Oscar Pistorius didn't have a gun.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby gh » Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:04 am

18.99s wrote:...

If you buy six guns in a short period of time, and the guns are not for training for your job or using on the job, you're probably a criminal or a nutcase who is going to do something stupid with one of those guns someday, and I would want to stay far away from you.


Wrong. You're ignoring a not insubstantial part of the populace: those who collect things. Stamps, coins, knives, guns, you name it. There are no end of normal people who have all kind of guns that they may never even shoot. (for the record, my gut feel is that Pistorious is not one of these, but you're tarring with a way too wide a brush here)
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:27 am

My, fairly new, next door neighbor probably has about 200+ guns in his house and he is certainly no nut. From the photos in his house he and his father did a lot of hunting all over the world.

As gh says, some people just collect things. As for myself I own one gun. My grandfather's, the one from Minnesota, shotgun.

But I still think no one needs to buy six new guns at a time. The only exception I could see is for old collectible guns.
Last edited by Conor Dary on Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby gibson » Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:28 am

until the SA cops prove THEIR competence, i'd definitely leave oscar alone and say he's innocent until proven guilty.

i mean, south africa had / has a real problem with armed intruders and car jackings. i am sure many people are more than concerned many an evening about real and imagined crimes.

so oscar could well have woke up in a dream world where there were intruders and he had to save the day NOW. not wait for a bullet in the head and to see his lovely raped or tortured as is sometimes the custom.

and drug alegations? friends the track world is full of lance armstrongs. full, so don't dump on oscar.

people install flame throwers to disable intruders.
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=car+flamethrower+johannesburg&view=detail&id=9616DA458E65D0D990B11B28C140F7A01B65D37C&FORM=IDFRIR
military site talks about the problem
http://www.military-quotes.com/forum/st ... 76228.html
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:31 am

Unless OP is reading this thread, I think it hardly matters what we say. And since the majority here probably think he is guilty as hell, it probably just as well he doesn't read it.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby lonewolf » Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:38 am

As to multiple gun purchases, I know a guy, avid hunter and gun collector, who buys new guns to swap for collectible guns.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby Midnightfeast » Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:27 am

18.99s wrote:He was negligent in firing at the door without first taking reasonable steps to determine who was or wasn't behind the door, like checking the bed instead of assuming she was still in the bed.

Quite,
Oscar's shouting would have alerted any burglar to his presence. If the burglar wanted a confrontation, then Oscar would have been attacked when he turned the corner into the bathroom. Any burglar retreating to the bathroom, would be unlikely to be going anywhere. Oscar had the door covered so, he would be safe enough. The guy would have been hiding, hoping Oscar would go away (assuming he wasn't checking the cistern for loot, but Oscar would still have the door covered).
It is at this point, Oscar should be shouting at Reeva, checking she had/was phoning the police, he had all the time he needed to check who was in the bathroom.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby user4 » Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:31 am

gh wrote:
18.99s wrote:...

If you buy six guns in a short period of time, and the guns are not for training for your job or using on the job, you're probably a criminal or a nutcase who is going to do something stupid with one of those guns someday, and I would want to stay far away from you.


Wrong. You're ignoring a not insubstantial part of the populace: those who collect things. Stamps, coins, knives, guns, you name it. There are no end of normal people who have all kind of guns that they may never even shoot. (for the record, my gut feel is that Pistorious is not one of these, but you're tarring with a way too wide a brush here)


I dont own a gun but I can imagine a family coming to the conclusion that they need to have a few firearms in the home for protection of life. They go out and buy more than a few guns. This actually happens, a non-gun owner deciding to become a gun owner, presto-chango, over night, the number of guns they own goes from 0 to 6. All for the reason of protection of life, not because they are collectors or gun lovers, simply because they love their family. I have read that there really is no more fundamental right for a human being than to be able to protect your body from violence . While most males see themselves as able to do that without a weapon, female are very much vulnerable to aggressive males. The firearm is one of the great civilizing tools largely because, as a defensive weapon, it neutralizes the aggression and strength advantage of males vs. females. The average time-to-arrival after a call to the police is not encouraging. Self defense is just common sense.
Last edited by user4 on Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:43 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby polevaultpower » Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:36 am

We own several guns. My husband is an LEO. We'll probably move out to the boonies again in the next year, possibly an island. I have not enjoyed my experiences shooting guns so far, but I think that I should probably learn how once we are back in a less populated area, where help might be a lot farther away. I hope I never have to, but I like to be prepared for as many situations as possible. Let me tell you how stressful the few months I lived in a tsunami danger zone were!!
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby Daisy » Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:48 am

My husband is an LEO

??
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby 502CD » Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:55 am

Daisy wrote:
My husband is an LEO

??


I believe its - Law Enforcement Officer.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby polevaultpower » Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:58 am

502CD wrote:
Daisy wrote:
My husband is an LEO

??


I believe its - Law Enforcement Officer.


Yup.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby lonewolf » Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:02 am

Oh, I thought he was born in August. :)
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Inspector Clouseau - now - The debate on Oscar Pistorius

Postby Tuariki » Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:29 am

Conor Dary wrote:Unless OP is reading this thread, I think it hardly matters what we say. And since the majority here probably think he is guilty as hell, it probably just as well he doesn't read it.

I think the issue is "guilty of what".

By his own affidavit OP is, at a minimum, guilty of taking a series of deliberate actions to kill someone when he had no idea who he was killing.

The prosecution are charging him with premeditated murder. The prosecution is, so I understand,defining premeditated at its most basic level. That is, he planned to murder the person who was in the toilet, even if that plan was first hatched as he entered the bathroom.

I don't think the prosecution has any chance of proving he had hatched a plan sometime earlier in the evening to specifically murder Reeva following an argument with Reeva.

Presumably the defense team will try to mount an argument that OP was justified in his actions because it was a natural reaction for him to "freak out and react the way he did because he was justifiably terrified of a possible violent home invasion".

And while one or two posters may strongly disagree with references to terms like paranoia and schizophrenia to describe OP's actions that night, it would seem to me that may be his best line of defense. Sort of like "momentary insanity" where OP couldn't be held liable for his actions.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby mump boy » Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:42 am

user4 wrote: The firearm is one of the great civilizing tools largely because, as a defensive weapon, it neutralizes the aggression and strength advantage of males vs. females. The average time-to-arrival after a call to the police is not encouraging. Self defense is just common sense.


I don't know how we cope here in the UK :roll:
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Re: Inspector Clouseau - now - The debate on Oscar Pistorius

Postby lionelp1 » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:18 pm

mump boy wrote:
user4 wrote: The firearm is one of the great civilizing tools largely because, as a defensive weapon, it neutralizes the aggression and strength advantage of males vs. females. The average time-to-arrival after a call to the police is not encouraging. Self defense is just common sense.


I don't know how we cope here in the UK :roll:


user4... well done . one of the most sick comments ever. :evil: The firearm a civilising defensive weapon... please go and lie down for a while and you will feel much better.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau - now - The debate on Oscar Pistorius

Postby iain » Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:09 pm

^This
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Re: Inspector Clouseau - now - The debate on Oscar Pistorius

Postby user4 » Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:25 pm

I cant assume that you think a woman should wait for the police to arrive before she is saved from an invader? You must know other alternatives :)

My hope is that the future will see the development of non-lethal technologies that allow the innocent to protect themselves without taking the life of the would-be rapist/murderer.

An ideal solution might be highly directive high propulsion pepper sprays. That seems like an avenue that should be explored in the self defense technology world. Of course you dont want a solution that merely makes the aggressor more aggressive and motivated. Another reason why firearms are so common for self defense is that the shelf life of guns and bullets is on the order of many decades, no serious need for a maintenance/replacement schedule. I suspect that the pepper spray solution falls short on this account. There is probably great room for research and development. I will try to stay positive. :)
Last edited by user4 on Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby Daisy » Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:36 pm

lonewolf wrote:Oh, I thought he was born in August. :)

This was my first thought, but that made no sense. Surely she meant TAURUS? :twisted:
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby Dutra5 » Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:29 pm

polevaultpower wrote:
Pego wrote:
polevaultpower wrote:We don't know if that is what happened or not, but it is possible that Reeva believed OP that there was an intruder, and was hidden in the bathroom to protect herself, having no idea that OP thought _she_ was the intruder. She may have died believing an intruder shot her.


Pistorius said that he was screaming at Reeva to call the police. How could she mistake that for a burglar and remain quiet in the bathroom?


If I'm Reeva, and _if_ his version of events is true, I am assuming that he has actually seen an intruder, and I'm thinking that I don't want the burglar to know where I am because I don't want to get kidnapped/raped/murdered.

As far as how could OP not realize she was not in bed? If you have a dark room, a fluffy comforter, and you're in full panic mode, it could be easy to see lumps in the comforter out of the corner of your eye and assume she was there. I doubt she neatly made the bed before she got up to pee. One time in college I was at an away meet, and when I went to go to bed, I thought my bedmate had snuck her boyfriend in, so I slept on the couch. I was wrong.


And for the record, even if everything OP says is true, he still deserves to be locked up in jail IMO. Believing his story doesn't mean that you think he deserves no punishment.


PVP...I can't decide if I'd rather have you as my lawyer or on my jury. :lol:
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby bad hammy » Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:23 pm

gh wrote:
18.99s wrote:...

If you buy six guns in a short period of time, and the guns are not for training for your job or using on the job, you're probably a criminal or a nutcase who is going to do something stupid with one of those guns someday, and I would want to stay far away from you.


Wrong. You're ignoring a not insubstantial part of the populace: those who collect things. Stamps, coins, knives, guns, you name it. There are no end of normal people who have all kind of guns that they may never even shoot. (for the record, my gut feel is that Pistorious is not one of these, but you're tarring with a way too wide a brush here)

I've spent most of my adult life living in Oakland, CA. Most folks in Oakland buying six guns at a time are probably not folks you would want to hang out with. And I am much more concerned with their ability to buy these arsenals than I am any inconvenience a collector or hunter might have if the government makes it a bit tougher to purchase their toys.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby user4 » Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:55 pm

bad hammy wrote:I've spent most of my adult life living in Oakland, CA. Most folks in Oakland buying six guns at a time are probably not folks you would want to hang out with. And I am much more concerned with their ability to buy these arsenals than I am any inconvenience a collector or hunter might have if the government makes it a bit tougher to purchase their toys.


If he is a criminal capable of armed robbery, murder or some other violent crime is he going to be worried about acquiring a gun outside the strict letter of the law ? Most guys of that type are breaking countless laws and gun laws already. You can add one more but it is likely not going to reduce crime. Do criminals have guns that can be traced back to them, certainly not the shrewdest and craftiest among them.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby 18.99s » Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:08 pm

gh wrote:
18.99s wrote:...

If you buy six guns in a short period of time, and the guns are not for training for your job or using on the job, you're probably a criminal or a nutcase who is going to do something stupid with one of those guns someday, and I would want to stay far away from you.


Wrong. You're ignoring a not insubstantial part of the populace: those who collect things. Stamps, coins, knives, guns, you name it. There are no end of normal people who have all kind of guns that they may never even shoot. (for the record, my gut feel is that Pistorious is not one of these, but you're tarring with a way too wide a brush here)


OK, I'll agree that collectors of antique guns aren't to be painted with the same brush. But my view still holds for others who buy 6 guns in a month for non-occupational use, to be used only by their lone self (i.e. not shared with 5 family members) and they're not an octopus.

Sure I'll be wrong a lot of the time, but this is a matter of life and death and I'll be right enough of the time that staying away from such people and keeping my family away from them is a good strategy if I want to live long.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau - now - The debate on Oscar Pistorius

Postby gh » Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:50 pm

Nowhere did I say collectors had to go for antiques. The fascination is basically the same for modern weaponry.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby Tuariki » Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:07 pm

mump boy wrote:
user4 wrote: The firearm is one of the great civilizing tools largely because, as a defensive weapon, it neutralizes the aggression and strength advantage of males vs. females. The average time-to-arrival after a call to the police is not encouraging. Self defense is just common sense.


I don't know how we cope here in the UK :roll:

Same. I am quite happy living in my uncivilized country.

I note that since the terrible events of Sandy Hook there have been about 2,000 cases of aggression neutralizing in the US.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby Tuariki » Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:09 pm

Dutra5 wrote:
PVP...I can't decide if I'd rather have you as my lawyer or on my jury. :lol:


If you are in SA I guess PVP will have to be your lawyer, given they have no juries.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau - now - The debate on Oscar Pistorius

Postby polevaultpower » Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:30 pm

gh wrote:Nowhere did I say collectors had to go for antiques. The fascination is basically the same for modern weaponry.


Oh definitely. If we had loads of cash sitting around and Lukas had stable employment, I'm sure we would have far more guns/ammo/accessories in the house. He can spend hours looking at guns online. He loves to watch youtube videos of people blowing stuff up with guns.

Fortunately, I married a man with some self-control. :wink:
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby user4 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:16 am

Tuariki wrote:
mump boy wrote:
user4 wrote: The firearm is one of the great civilizing tools largely because, as a defensive weapon, it neutralizes the aggression and strength advantage of males vs. females. The average time-to-arrival after a call to the police is not encouraging. Self defense is just common sense.


I don't know how we cope here in the UK :roll:

Same. I am quite happy living in my uncivilized country.

I note that since the terrible events of Sandy Hook there have been about 2,000 cases of aggression neutralizing in the US.


It might be worth taking a look at controlled studies of homicide rates across areas where gun prohibitions are in effect and contrast this with those rates where guns are lawful and accessible. Things can vary wildly across cultures, here is a rough sketch of homicide rates worldwide,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... icide_rate

Regarding the UK, it was once a fundamental right to have arms for one's defense. Gladstone, considered it a natural right, that is, it was a right that government's can not grant but rather that they can only usurp,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politi ... ed_Kingdom
"The fifth and last auxiliary right of the subject, that I shall at present mention, is that of having arms for their defence, suitable to their condition and degree, and such as are allowed by law. Which is also declared by the same statute I W. & M. st.2. c.2. and is indeed a public allowance, under due restrictions, of the natural right of resistance and self-preservation, when the sanctions of society and laws are found insufficient to restrain the violence of oppression."
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Re: Inspector Clouseau - now - The debate on Oscar Pistorius

Postby 18.99s » Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:47 am

gh wrote:Nowhere did I say collectors had to go for antiques. The fascination is basically the same for modern weaponry.


And that fascination is why I consider them too dangerous for me to be around. Of course, that has no bearing on whether you or anybody else wants to be around them or be like them.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby Dutra5 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:24 am

Tuariki wrote:
Dutra5 wrote:
PVP...I can't decide if I'd rather have you as my lawyer or on my jury. :lol:


If you are in SA I guess PVP will have to be your lawyer, given they have no juries.


We can promote her directly to judgeship.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby Tuariki » Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:01 am

Dutra5 wrote:
Tuariki wrote:
Dutra5 wrote:
PVP...I can't decide if I'd rather have you as my lawyer or on my jury. :lol:


If you are in SA I guess PVP will have to be your lawyer, given they have no juries.


We can promote her directly to judgeship.

And with her pole beside her she will be able to easily reach out and give a friendly "tap", or not so friendly as the case may be, to any of the lawyers getting out of line.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby jeremyp » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:18 pm

mump boy wrote:
user4 wrote: The firearm is one of the great civilizing tools largely because, as a defensive weapon, it neutralizes the aggression and strength advantage of males vs. females. The average time-to-arrival after a call to the police is not encouraging. Self defense is just common sense.


I don't know how we cope here in the UK :roll:

Now you know why you lost the colonies! :D
jeremyp
 
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby Dutra5 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:33 pm

Tuariki wrote:
Dutra5 wrote:
Tuariki wrote:
Dutra5 wrote:
PVP...I can't decide if I'd rather have you as my lawyer or on my jury. :lol:


If you are in SA I guess PVP will have to be your lawyer, given they have no juries.


We can promote her directly to judgeship.

And with her pole beside her she will be able to easily reach out and give a friendly "tap", or not so friendly as the case may be, to any of the lawyers getting out of line.


A whack would be so much more entertaining. :D
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Re: Inspector Clouseau - now - The debate on Oscar Pistorius

Postby jeremyp » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:37 pm

I was in a cadet force in HS in the UK and shot. I was in the ROTC in College and shot. Ditto for my stint in the Army. Haven't owned a gun since, and have had no need to. However I would buy one if I ever lived in an area with a high crime rate, although I would have to convince my wife to do so. The 2d amendment is alive and well in the US, but it has been hijacked by those too high on steroids and paranoia. Shooting clubs/hunting fine! Everybody who owns guns should have them registered and should not be allowed to sell them without proper paperwork, just like a car. No-one should be allowed a weapon that is primarily a military weapon unless they join a gun club and the weapon is secured there. I had a Spanish American war rifle on the wall in college and was told to remove the firing pin. No problem(o?)
Now as to inner cities and gangs I would allow Mayors to have stringent laws that would allow them to curb the mayhem. Let the Mayors and the Police chiefs guide those laws to fruition and screw the NRA. 2 cents Kaching!
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Re: Inspector Clouseau - now - The debate on Oscar Pistorius

Postby user4 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:54 pm

jeremyp wrote:I was in a cadet force in HS in the UK and shot. I was in the ROTC in College and shot. Ditto for my stint in the Army. Haven't owned a gun since, and have had no need to. However I would buy one if I ever lived in an area with a high crime rate, although I would have to convince my wife to do so. The 2d amendment is alive and well in the US, but it has been hijacked by those too high on steroids and paranoia. Shooting clubs/hunting fine! Everybody who owns guns should have them registered and should not be allowed to sell them without proper paperwork, just like a car. No-one should be allowed a weapon that is primarily a military weapon unless they join a gun club and the weapon is secured there. I had a Spanish American war rifle on the wall in college and was told to remove the firing pin. No problem(o?)
Now as to inner cities and gangs I would allow Mayors to have stringent laws that would allow them to curb the mayhem. Let the Mayors and the Police chiefs guide those laws to fruition and screw the NRA. 2 cents Kaching!


Great points all around, but there is one knot that wont go away, the data suggests that stringent gun control in inner cities has done nothing to curb the mayhem. It may actually exacerbate it. While the efforts at gun control may have done more harm than good it was certainly an honest effort on the part of city governments to give it a try. There are likely many factors that contribute to high crime in wealthy western cities but while stringent gun control laws effect to make the law abiding defenseless they have not reduced crime. Intuition tells me that humans must have a right to defend themselves in a way that is organic to their own constitution/makeup and just as importantly their circumstances. If they prefer firearms then that is a reasonable choice. People will defend themselves best when they are the ones determining the details. But it also seems obvious that people should not have to live in real fear that their neighbor's arsenal is going to blow up and destroy them. That is reasonable and so there must be reasonable restraints that society places on the right to keep and bear ammunition and other hazardous materials. If you have many arms and more importantly much ammunition in your home you should be forced to show that it is safe and secure and well kept. If you cant do that then your neighbors may exercise their rights to secure their home from accidental mayhem.
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