Oscar Pistorius suffers memory lapse


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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby kuha » Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:11 pm

mump boy wrote:
batonless relay wrote:Death penalty for an accidental shooting? .


There is absolutely nothing accidental about this shooting. It remains to be seen if the result was accidental but the shooting was 100% intended.


Precisely right.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby batonless relay » Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:21 pm

jeremyp wrote:
batonless relay wrote:
jeremyp wrote:
batonless relay wrote: The cited twitter pictorial is wrong too. It claims to be a re-enactment of Pistorius' words but it's not

Pistorius said he shot through the door and he accidentally killed her. That's a good place to start and the trial will suss out the truth, hopefully.


What was accurate about the twitter piece was his statement: "I grabbed my 9 mm pistol from underneath my bed. On my way to the bathroom I screamed words to the effect for him/them to get out of my house and for Reeva to phone the police."

So why would she not respond to his screaming? Presumably she knows he has a gun and has expressed previously his fear of break ins, and surely she'd scream out something to warn him of her presence in the bathroom!

How about some of you not guess what Pistorius' intent was or what his frame of mind was; that will only lead to posts that are sure to get this thread locked like the previous thread. Until the media reports are entered into evidence in a court of law, it is presumptuous to understand them as facts. Aside from the prosecutor, the only additional testimony is the written testimony of Pistorius. Read it at the following link http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-575 ... own-words/ and you will see discrepancy's with the twitter illustration, which is nothing more than bad comedy.

How about you not presuming I'm guessing when I'm taking it from what he said. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/1 ... 17604.html. I stand by my comment. Who the hell is going to sit mute on a toilet with your boyfriend screaming at the door about burglars? Unless of course you think it was "suicide by boyfriend."

Calm down. In your huff you don't realize that what you linked to has nothing to do with the twitter comment in your initial post and your sarcasm invalidates whatever point you're trying to make (but that would be my presumption that you're trying to make one). Neither you, nor I, have any idea of what Ms. Steenkamps flight/fight responses are when scared. I admit that I have no idea what happened that night but I'm tickled by all of you who are absolutely convinced that you do know what happened that night, yet you haven't flown to South Africa to submit testimony.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby Dutra5 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:36 pm

It does seem a bit odd that Pistorius would move past the bed, not alert his girlfriend to get out of harms way, start screaming after leaving the bedroom to call the cops and to the person behind the door and the girlfriend...or anyone...would sit mute on the toilet.

That's just a bit too fantastic to believe.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby Dave » Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:00 pm

I understand there won't be a jury. Does South Africa's system resemble the US system in that the defense is to acquit the defendant no matter what or reduce the sentence if that is not possible? Likewise, is the prosecutor supposed to prove his or her case no matter what within the limits of the law?

If that is the case, I suspect most of our conjecture will be set aside quickly and most, if not all, of the really fantastical stories we have heard from the defense will be blown away.

Ultimately, there will be three professionals in the room who are under a tremendous amount of scrutiny and pressure to do their jobs and at least two of them will be under pressure to make sure this is absolutely clean.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby Pego » Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:54 pm

Dutra5 wrote:It does seem a bit odd that Pistorius would move past the bed, not alert his girlfriend to get out of harms way, start screaming after leaving the bedroom to call the cops and to the person behind the door and the girlfriend...or anyone...would sit mute on the toilet.

That's just a bit too fantastic to believe.


Preposterous. If I sat on the toilet in the middle of the night and my wife came with a gun screaming to get out, I would say something like, "Are you nuts? It's me, no burglars here."
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby Tuariki » Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:54 pm

So what are the facts that are not in dispute? They appear to be:

* OP intended to kill the person inside the toilet
* OP achieved his intention
* OP shot and killed Reeva Steenkamp
* OP used a Glock pistol to shoot Reeva
* OP fired 4 bullets
* 3 of these bullets hit Reeva

And what is in dispute?

* OP says he thought it was a burglar in the toilet
* OP says he did not know it was Reeva in the toilet
* OP says he walked past the bed and did not notice Reeva was not there
* OP did not hear Reeva calling - after he yelled to Reeva, after shot 1, shot 2, shot 3, shot 4
* OP used the cricket bat to break the toilet door
* OP did not hit Reeva with the cricket bat
* The shots were fired from a height which would have required OP to have his legs on
* OP and Reeva were having a loud argument earlier in the night
* OP was in love with Reeva
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby polevaultpower » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:09 pm

If I was living in SA, a place with frequent break-ins by violent criminals, and I was staying at my boyfriend's house, someone who is known for being wealthy and has received threats in the past, and if I was in the relative safety of a toilet inside a larger bathroom, and then I heard my boyfriend shouting that there was an intruder... my response would be to lock the door and keep quiet so the intruder doesn't know where I am.

We don't know if that is what happened or not, but it is possible that Reeva believed OP that there was an intruder, and was hidden in the bathroom to protect herself, having no idea that OP thought _she_ was the intruder. She may have died believing an intruder shot her.

I have a friend in South Africa. She and her husband have been hijacked twice, it is very common there. Last time it happened as her husband was pulling into the house (they have a gate, as do most middle class South Africans). She hid in the bathroom with her girls and tried desperately to nurse the baby to keep her quiet, while hearing her husband outside begging for his life. She says a person down the road from them has been robbed seven times and three people have been hijacked in the past three months. Most of the crime does not get reported by the press unless it is particularly violent, as it is so common. Almost everyone they know has been hijacked or robbed, and they know quite a few people who have been killed by robbers, some who were killed while resisting and some who were killed even though they weren't resisting. One of her friends was hijacked and barely got her kids out of the car in time. They don't normally take kids, but that happens too, there is always a market for human trafficking.

So yes, I think there is a _possibility_ that Reeva's fight or flight response to hearing her boyfriend hollering about an intruder would be to lock herself in the toilet and keep quiet.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby Tuariki » Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:02 am

I think polevaultpower has put up the most credible scenario of how this incident played out.

It doesn't make any logical sense that OP decided to deliberately murder RS. OP strikes me as having traits of a paranoid schizophrenic.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby Tuariki » Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:02 am

I think polevaultpower has put up the most credible scenario of how this incident played out.

It doesn't make any logical sense that OP decided to deliberately murder RS. OP strikes me as having traits of a paranoid schizophrenic.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby batonless relay » Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:27 am

Tuariki wrote:So what are the facts that are not in dispute? They appear to be:

* OP intended to kill the person inside the toilet (Nonsense! Shooting at and intent to kill are different)
* OP achieved his intention (More nonsense. If "a" is untrue, then "b" is untrue)
* OP shot and killed Reeva Steenkamp
* OP used a Glock pistol to shoot Reeva
* OP fired 4 bullets
* 3 of these bullets hit Reeva

And what is in dispute?

* OP says he thought it was a burglar in the toilet
* OP says he did not know it was Reeva in the toilet
* OP says he walked past the bed and did not notice Reeva was not there
* OP did not hear Reeva calling - after he yelled to Reeva, after shot 1, shot 2, shot 3, shot 4 (For him to hear her she would have to call back. show one link to an instance where it was written that Reeva called to Oscar)
* OP used the cricket bat to break the toilet door
* OP did not hit Reeva with the cricket bat
* The shots were fired from a height which would have required OP to have his legs on
* OP and Reeva were having a loud argument earlier in the night
* OP was in love with Reeva (are you serious?)


polevaultpower's point crossed my mind from the beginning. I'm more surprised that many of you couldn't have extended Pistorius that minuscule benefit of the doubt. Now Oscar Pistorius is a paranoid schizophrenic? Based upon what? If nearly everything you wrote is in dispute how could you possibly know that? You have examined him? I think, without having any idea whatsoever, that he was a man with a gun who was scared well beyond the area of expertise he was "trained" (trained himself) to deal with and things just went out of control. (individual gun owners routinely make [bad] choices to pull the trigger that a soldier or policeman would not make in the same circumstance)

Fact: Pistorius reports to authorities as part of bail conditions http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/fe ... ities-bail
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby user4 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:24 am

batonless relay wrote:polevaultpower's point crossed my mind from the beginning. I'm more surprised that many of you couldn't have extended Pistorius that minuscule benefit of the doubt. Now Oscar Pistorius is a paranoid schizophrenic? Based upon what? If nearly everything you wrote is in dispute how could you possibly know that? You have examined him? I think, without having any idea whatsoever, that he was a man with a gun who was scared well beyond the area of expertise he was "trained" (trained himself) to deal with and things just went out of control. (individual gun owners routinely make [bad] choices to pull the trigger that a soldier or policeman would not make in the same circumstance)

Fact: Pistorius reports to authorities as part of bail conditions http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/fe ... ities-bail


Blaming her death on the countless robbers and rapists and murderers in SA makes some sense if there were a few in his apartment that night. It would make near perfect sense if she were a cross fire casualty while he shot and killed a few of them. But they werent there and he didnt , rather he killed the one innocent person he was supposed to protect that night while perfectly alone in his apartment with her. If he blames this on a high crime rate in SA he is despicable.

Stat: the vast majority of female murders are committed by their boyfriends/husbands.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby odelltrclan » Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:02 am

Polevaultpower's explanation simply shows one plausible solution. However, if what has been reported is true, that of her skull having been fractured by the cricket bat, then that scenario is unlikely.

It is possible that in a fit of rage, he hit her in the head with the bat, she ran for protection and locked herself in the bathroom. Subsequently, either through her verbal communication or his realizing his life would forever be changed anyway he concocted the story and shot her through the door as some kind of excuse that the police/public might by.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby batonless relay » Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:08 am

odelltrclan wrote:Polevaultpower's explanation simply shows one plausible solution. However, if what has been reported is true, that of her skull having been fractured by the cricket bat, then that scenario is unlikely.

It is possible if a fit of rage, he hit her in the head with the bat, she ran for protection and locked herself in the bathroom. Subsequently, either through her verbal communication or his realizing his life would forever be changed anyway he concocted the story and shot her through the door as some kind of excuse that the police/public might by.

it is not refreshing to see that you're competing with polevaultpower's reasonable "explanation" by concocting something profane and outrageously extreme. She made a plausible scenario for why someone would remain quiet in the bathroom with the door locked and you continue to muddy the waters.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby 26mi235 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:40 am

batonless relay wrote:
odelltrclan wrote:Polevaultpower's explanation simply shows one plausible solution. However, if what has been reported is true, that of her skull having been fractured by the cricket bat, then that scenario is unlikely.

It is possible if a fit of rage, he hit her in the head with the bat, she ran for protection and locked herself in the bathroom. Subsequently, either through her verbal communication or his realizing his life would forever be changed anyway he concocted the story and shot her through the door as some kind of excuse that the police/public might by.

it is not refreshing to see that you're competing with polevaultpower's reasonable "explanation" by concocting something profane and outrageously extreme. She made a plausible scenario for why someone would remain quiet in the bathroom with the door locked and you continue to muddy the waters.


Looking at what is most likely, PVP's is a possible, but not likely, interpretation, given what we know. Actually, it seems to be absent what seems to be the case of the bat being used on her. That is up to forensics, but I think the new crew in charge out outmaneuvered OP and his team.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby polevaultpower » Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:07 am

We won't know until trial what the facts are about the bat, everything in the press right now is just rumors. It certainly appears that it will be a key piece of evidence either way.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby odelltrclan » Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:31 am

batonless relay wrote:it is not refreshing to see that you're competing with polevaultpower's reasonable "explanation" by concocting something profane and outrageously extreme. She made a plausible scenario for why someone would remain quiet in the bathroom with the door locked and you continue to muddy the waters.


Profane and extreme? Are you kidding me?! :roll: What I proposed is no less plausible and far more likely. If you hold to the ideal that OP is innocent, cling to PVP's theory with all your might. But one day wake up to reality. There is almost nothing that can explain what happened in realistic way where he comes out innocent.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby batonless relay » Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:00 am

odelltrclan wrote:
batonless relay wrote:it is not refreshing to see that you're competing with polevaultpower's reasonable "explanation" by concocting something profane and outrageously extreme. She made a plausible scenario for why someone would remain quiet in the bathroom with the door locked and you continue to muddy the waters.


Profane and extreme? Are you kidding me?! :roll: What I proposed is no less plausible and far more likely. If you hold to the ideal that OP is innocent, cling to PVP's theory with all your might. But one day wake up to reality. There is almost nothing that can explain what happened in realistic way where he comes out innocent.

Innocent? I never said that nor implied it. He has already admitted that he shot through the door. The only question is whether or not he knew Ms. Steenkamp was behind the door. He said that he didn't know Ms. Steenkamp was behind the door and I think that is reasonable. What is *not* reasonable is saying that he "concocted" the story when you can't possibly know that. what is *not reasonable* is saying that "there is nothing that can explain what happened..." when polevaultpower made a plausible explanation of what *could have* happened. (Please note that *could have* is emphasized so that it is not mistake with did) Some of us have tried to be reasonable from the start and some of you have made no attempt. So to answer your question: no, I am not kidding you.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby jeremyp » Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:11 am

batonless relay wrote: Neither you, nor I, have any idea of what Ms. Steenkamps flight/fight responses are when scared. I admit that I have no idea what happened that night but I'm tickled by all of you who are absolutely convinced that you do know what happened that night, yet you haven't flown to South Africa to submit testimony.

Fine! You agree that you have no opinion and no wish to opine! So please cease from opining. I, on the other hand, will continue to engage my thinking processes.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby jeremyp » Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:14 am

polevaultpower wrote:If I was living in SA, a place with frequent break-ins by violent criminals, and I was staying at my boyfriend's house, someone who is known for being wealthy and has received threats in the past, and if I was in the relative safety of a toilet inside a larger bathroom, and then I heard my boyfriend shouting that there was an intruder... my response would be to lock the door and keep quiet so the intruder doesn't know where I am.

We don't know if that is what happened or not, but it is possible that Reeva believed OP that there was an intruder, and was hidden in the bathroom to protect herself, having no idea that OP thought _she_ was the intruder. She may have died believing an intruder shot her.

I have a friend in South Africa. She and her husband have been hijacked twice, it is very common there. Last time it happened as her husband was pulling into the house (they have a gate, as do most middle class South Africans). She hid in the bathroom with her girls and tried desperately to nurse the baby to keep her quiet, while hearing her husband outside begging for his life. She says a person down the road from them has been robbed seven times and three people have been hijacked in the past three months. Most of the crime does not get reported by the press unless it is particularly violent, as it is so common. Almost everyone they know has been hijacked or robbed, and they know quite a few people who have been killed by robbers, some who were killed while resisting and some who were killed even though they weren't resisting. One of her friends was hijacked and barely got her kids out of the car in time. They don't normally take kids, but that happens too, there is always a market for human trafficking.

So yes, I think there is a _possibility_ that Reeva's fight or flight response to hearing her boyfriend hollering about an intruder would be to lock herself in the toilet and keep quiet.

A reasonable supposition. There is still the nagging question of why OP decided to fire into a locked bathroom when all he heard was.....silence.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby batonless relay » Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:15 am

jeremyp wrote:
batonless relay wrote: Neither you, nor I, have any idea of what Ms. Steenkamps flight/fight responses are when scared. I admit that I have no idea what happened that night but I'm tickled by all of you who are absolutely convinced that you do know what happened that night, yet you haven't flown to South Africa to submit testimony.

Fine! You agree that you have no opinion and no wish to opine! So please cease from opining. I, on the other hand, will continue to engage my thinking processes.

big difference between saying that we have no idea what happened and whatever you believe "opine" to mean or it could be a reading issue for you so I don't want to sound mean. Is english your first language?
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby odelltrclan » Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:24 am

batonless relay wrote:Innocent? I never said that nor implied it. He has already admitted that he shot through the door. The only question is whether or not he knew Ms. Steenkamp was behind the door. He said that he didn't know Ms. Steenkamp was behind the door and I think that is reasonable. What is *not* reasonable is saying that he "concocted" the story when you can't possibly know that. what is *not reasonable* is saying that "there is nothing that can explain what happened..." when polevaultpower made a plausible explanation of what *could have* happened. (Please note that *could have* is emphasized so that it is not mistake with did) Some of us have tried to be reasonable from the start and some of you have made no attempt. So to answer your question: no, I am not kidding you.


If you read both threads you would see that I have been one to give OP the benefit of the doubt with PVP. She opined a plausible explanation, which is exactly what I did. I never spoke it as fact. Others have given their opinions as well. And to suggest hers is the only reasonable explanation for what happened is ludicrous. Unlike others, I, nor most of they, go into a hissy fit when they don't agree with other posters. This appears to be something you have a problem dealing with. So please make an attempt to calm yourself down. What are these message boards other than people discussing current events and their take on that. If you can't handle it, go to Letsrun where you can talk unabashedly and demean people to your hearts content.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby batonless relay » Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:32 am

odell, unless please re-read your own posts and you will see that they are the quivalent of emotional outburst, not as bad as user4, but ... anyway, please calm down. Also until more information is added to the Pistorius case there will be nothing more for me to discuss with individual posters. Have a calm day, please. No need to get a heart attack.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby gh » Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:33 am

batonless relay wrote:.... Is english your first language?


Another comment like that and you're on vacation. We don't take that kind of tone around here. Thanks.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby kuha » Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:41 am

odelltrclan wrote:If you read both threads you would see that I have been one to give OP the benefit of the doubt with PVP. She opined and plausible explanation, which is exactly what I did. I never spoke it as fact. Other have given their opinions as well. And to suggest hers is the only reasonable explanation for what happened is ludicrous. Unlike others, I nor most of they, go into a hissy fit when they don't agree with other posters. This appears to be something you have a problem dealing with. So please make an attempt to calm yourself down. What are these message boards other than people discussing current events and their take on that. If you can't handle it, go to Letsrun where you can talk unabashedly and demean people to your hearts content.


Yes, totally. I give odelltrclan my proxy vote on this thread.

The bottom line here is that no one deserves special pleading. The facts are there to be analyzed. If that is done properly, then the legal truth will emerge. But it goes without saying that Pistorius is beginning in something of a deep hole. And that his guilt or innocence is utterly unrelated to whether he is seen as some sort of track "hero" or not.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby Pego » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:37 am

polevaultpower wrote:We don't know if that is what happened or not, but it is possible that Reeva believed OP that there was an intruder, and was hidden in the bathroom to protect herself, having no idea that OP thought _she_ was the intruder. She may have died believing an intruder shot her.


Pistorius said that he was screaming at Reeva to call the police. How could she mistake that for a burglar and remain quiet in the bathroom?
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby Tuariki » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:49 am

batonless relay wrote:
Tuariki wrote:* OP intended to kill the person inside the toilet (Nonsense! Shooting at and intent to kill are different)

When a person is locked in a little bathroom with nowhere to hide and no way to run away and you shoot at that person 4 times (with 3 on target) then IMO, and probably in the opinion of most others, OP had the intention of killing that person.

batonless relay wrote:
Tuariki wrote:* OP achieved his intention (More nonsense. If "a" is untrue, then "b" is untrue)



And I believe in the tooth fairy

batonless relay wrote:
Tuariki wrote:* OP did not hear Reeva calling - after he yelled to Reeva, after shot 1, shot 2, shot 3, shot 4 (For him to hear her she would have to call back. show one link to an instance where it was written that Reeva called to Oscar)



I am not saying that Reeva did call out. I am saying it is a possibility. OP says he called out to Reeva. He apparently says she never replied. PVP gave a plausible explanation which if true is a positive for OP. However, except for OP, no one will ever know. Only two people know if Reeva called out and one of those is dead. If Reeva did call out then OP is never going to admit that. So this possible scenario is something that is in dispute.

batonless relay wrote:
Tuariki wrote:* OP was in love with Reeva (are you serious?)


If OP deliberately killed Reeva then if that is love it is a love that is foreign to me. A person who is obsessed is not IMO in love. However, I am not making a judgement either way.I am just saying it is something in dispute. I imagine Reeva's family would dispute that OP was in love.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby Conor Dary » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:53 am

Pego wrote:
polevaultpower wrote:We don't know if that is what happened or not, but it is possible that Reeva believed OP that there was an intruder, and was hidden in the bathroom to protect herself, having no idea that OP thought _she_ was the intruder. She may have died believing an intruder shot her.


Pistorius said that he was screaming at Reeva to call the police. How could she mistake that for a burglar and remain quiet in the bathroom?


Maybe she was brushing her teeth and didn't want to be bothered.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby Tuariki » Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:00 am

batonless relay wrote:polevaultpower's point crossed my mind from the beginning. I'm more surprised that many of you couldn't have extended Pistorius that minuscule benefit of the doubt. Now Oscar Pistorius is a paranoid schizophrenic? Based upon what? If nearly everything you wrote is in dispute how could you possibly know that? You have examined him? I think, without having any idea whatsoever, that he was a man with a gun who was scared well beyond the area of expertise he was "trained" (trained himself) to deal with and things just went out of control. (individual gun owners routinely make [bad] choices to pull the trigger that a soldier or policeman would not make in the same circumstance)

Paranoia is a thought process believed to be heavily influenced by anxiety or fear, often to the point of irrationality and delusion.

Schizophrenia is a mental disorder that makes it hard to tell the difference between what is real and not real;

I think that the above definitions of paranoia and schizophrenia fairly describe the actions that night of OP. I also note the many comments of OP's acquaintances in SA and around the world who have noted his obsession with guns and security. His recent application for another 6 pistols also lends weight to suggestions of paranoia and schizophrenia.

It would also seem that OP's best chances of getting off would be to plead mental instability because IMO, in concert with other posters, OP deliberately and with intent killed the person in the toilet. Whether ot not OP knew that person was Reeva will never be resolved by forensics. Only OP knows the truth on that particular issue. His version may well be true,but we will never know.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby batonless relay » Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:00 am

Multiple gun ownership, at least in the USA, does not mean that someone is either paranoid or schizophrenic. I don't know if he had an obsession with guns or not, but, to me, it didn't seem that way. Depending on how entrenched one is within a gun culture, Pistorius may not have seemed that bad (i always take comments made after an incident with a huge grain of salt, not saying they're wrong, just that people are usually not qualified to make judgments about people that some clinicians have been known to get wrong.). Multiple guns and trips to shooting ranges are considered extremely normal in a lot of places in the USA (big debate going on about that right now). And that culture can run along all lines: race, socio-economic background, job title and gender.

I'm not sure if you've ever seen this video before but my limited knowledge of the athlete in it would not make me think, for one moment, that they were obsessed with guns even though there is a great chance that they own more than one (most avid gun owners own more than one gun).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czQMxnqhEQo

Oscar Pistorius and his family will hold a private memorial service for Reeva Steenkamp at his uncle's home Tuesday night.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ol ... e/1948689/
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby jeremyp » Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:43 pm

batonless relay wrote:
jeremyp wrote:
batonless relay wrote: Neither you, nor I, have any idea of what Ms. Steenkamps flight/fight responses are when scared. I admit that I have no idea what happened that night but I'm tickled by all of you who are absolutely convinced that you do know what happened that night, yet you haven't flown to South Africa to submit testimony.

Fine! You agree that you have no opinion and no wish to opine! So please cease from opining. I, on the other hand, will continue to engage my thinking processes.

big difference between saying that we have no idea what happened and whatever you believe "opine" to mean or it could be a reading issue for you so I don't want to sound mean. Is english your first language?


Of course there is a big difference! I have no idea about whether many things have happened, but why should that stop me trying to figure out something rationally? You have stated you know nothing about what happened, so leave those of us who want to wrestle with the case be and go on about your business of staying above the fray. And what was that about sarcasm?
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby Dutra5 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:13 pm

polevaultpower wrote:If I was living in SA, a place with frequent break-ins by violent criminals, and I was staying at my boyfriend's house, someone who is known for being wealthy and has received threats in the past, and if I was in the relative safety of a toilet inside a larger bathroom, and then I heard my boyfriend shouting that there was an intruder... my response would be to lock the door and keep quiet so the intruder doesn't know where I am.

We don't know if that is what happened or not, but it is possible that Reeva believed OP that there was an intruder, and was hidden in the bathroom to protect herself, having no idea that OP thought _she_ was the intruder. She may have died believing an intruder shot her.

I have a friend in South Africa. She and her husband have been hijacked twice, it is very common there. Last time it happened as her husband was pulling into the house (they have a gate, as do most middle class South Africans). She hid in the bathroom with her girls and tried desperately to nurse the baby to keep her quiet, while hearing her husband outside begging for his life. She says a person down the road from them has been robbed seven times and three people have been hijacked in the past three months. Most of the crime does not get reported by the press unless it is particularly violent, as it is so common. Almost everyone they know has been hijacked or robbed, and they know quite a few people who have been killed by robbers, some who were killed while resisting and some who were killed even though they weren't resisting. One of her friends was hijacked and barely got her kids out of the car in time. They don't normally take kids, but that happens too, there is always a market for human trafficking.

So yes, I think there is a _possibility_ that Reeva's fight or flight response to hearing her boyfriend hollering about an intruder would be to lock herself in the toilet and keep quiet.


The problem I have with the Pistorius story as has been presented is the multiple angles which there are at least a few leaps beyond what would be considered normal. Based on his own words, he retrieved a gun from the bedroom. The same bedroom the girlfriend would have been sleeping in. If there were an intruder in the home, why would he not either notice her not in the bed or at least attempt to alert her to the fact that she needed to seek safety. That in itself, to me, is pretty bizarre. Then, when he begins to yell out to her to call the police....and why didn't he do that while in the bedroom in the first place.....he gets no answer and then he gets no answer from inside the bathroom...again why wouldn't she answer.....and then simply starts firing away.

One of these might be explainable but there are just too many to me to make any sense at all.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby Dutra5 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:19 pm

Pego wrote:
polevaultpower wrote:We don't know if that is what happened or not, but it is possible that Reeva believed OP that there was an intruder, and was hidden in the bathroom to protect herself, having no idea that OP thought _she_ was the intruder. She may have died believing an intruder shot her.


Pistorius said that he was screaming at Reeva to call the police. How could she mistake that for a burglar and remain quiet in the bathroom?


Since he said he was in the bedroom where he supposedly thought she was sleeping, why did he wait until he was out of the bedroom to start screaming back into another room to call the police. Why didn't he tell her in the bedroom to call the police?
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby user4 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:20 pm

If the only source for the story "that Reeva was locked quietly in a bathroom" when she was shot to death by her boyfriend is her boyfriend I can not see how one would make any inferences regarding his innocence based on that information.

Now if the forensics determine that she was actually quiet in the bathroom, trembling for fear to get away from an "intruder" rather than trembling to stay alive away from a raging nutty boyfriend, then there is some useful information in that fact.

Based on the eons history of mankind in these scenarios Ill bet that there was a raging nutty boyfriend.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby kevinsdad » Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:46 pm

Dutra5 wrote:
The problem I have with the Pistorius story as has been presented is the multiple angles which there are at least a few leaps beyond what would be considered normal. Based on his own words, he retrieved a gun from the bedroom. The same bedroom the girlfriend would have been sleeping in. If there were an intruder in the home, why would he not either notice her not in the bed or at least attempt to alert her to the fact that she needed to seek safety. That in itself, to me, is pretty bizarre. Then, when he begins to yell out to her to call the police....and why didn't he do that while in the bedroom in the first place.....he gets no answer and then he gets no answer from inside the bathroom...again why wouldn't she answer.....and then simply starts firing away.

One of these might be explainable but there are just too many to me to make any sense at all.


By his own farfetched account, the sounds of his girlfriend using his bathroom sent him into such a panic that he lost the ability to act rationally, such was his paranoia about home intruders. Yet, if he was really so paranoid that the armed patrols and other neighborhood security measures didn't satisfy him, why was his property not protected by a fence, and his windows and doors not barred? Why didn't he have an activated alarm system? Just one more thing in his story that makes no sense.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby mump boy » Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:54 pm

batonless relay wrote:
odelltrclan wrote:Polevaultpower's explanation simply shows one plausible solution. However, if what has been reported is true, that of her skull having been fractured by the cricket bat, then that scenario is unlikely.

It is possible if a fit of rage, he hit her in the head with the bat, she ran for protection and locked herself in the bathroom. Subsequently, either through her verbal communication or his realizing his life would forever be changed anyway he concocted the story and shot her through the door as some kind of excuse that the police/public might by.

it is not refreshing to see that you're competing with polevaultpower's reasonable "explanation" by concocting something profane and outrageously extreme. She made a plausible scenario for why someone would remain quiet in the bathroom with the door locked and you continue to muddy the waters.


But this scenario is far more plausible and the one that i'm going with at the moment
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby mump boy » Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:28 pm

kevinsdad wrote:
Dutra5 wrote:
The problem I have with the Pistorius story as has been presented is the multiple angles which there are at least a few leaps beyond what would be considered normal. Based on his own words, he retrieved a gun from the bedroom. The same bedroom the girlfriend would have been sleeping in. If there were an intruder in the home, why would he not either notice her not in the bed or at least attempt to alert her to the fact that she needed to seek safety. That in itself, to me, is pretty bizarre. Then, when he begins to yell out to her to call the police....and why didn't he do that while in the bedroom in the first place.....he gets no answer and then he gets no answer from inside the bathroom...again why wouldn't she answer.....and then simply starts firing away.

One of these might be explainable but there are just too many to me to make any sense at all.


By his own farfetched account, the sounds of his girlfriend using his bathroom sent him into such a panic that he lost the ability to act rationally, such was his paranoia about home intruders. Yet, if he was really so paranoid that the armed patrols and other neighborhood security measures didn't satisfy him, why was his property not protected by a fence, and his windows and doors not barred? Why didn't he have an activated alarm system? Just one more thing in his story that makes no sense.


Why were the police called previously and that night ?

How and why did burglars manage to climb in a bathroom window on (at least) the 2nd floor, in a gated community that hadn't had a break in for 5 years ??

Why would they lock themselves in a bathroom cubicle ?

If they had, why not fire a warning shot ?

Why not call the police ?

We've already gone over, why not tell your girlfriend ?

How does a cricket bat help you break down a door ?

Not confirmed but why where the shots at a downwards angle ?

Whatever the content, why did he have syringes ?

Why did he carry her downstairs ?

How did his dad and agent get to the house before the police ?

I may not live in SA but i do live in a particularly dodgy part of London and i have a spare room that different models stay on all the time. There is not a scenario in the world in which i wake up and hear noises in the bathroom and assume it's robbers rather than the other people in my house.

I don't live in a gated community and the other people aren't sleeping in the bed next to me but it is inconceivable that i would indiscriminately shoot at persons unknown !!

His story is so full of holes it's a joke, it sounds like something he came up with on the back of fag packet between calling his agent and the police

Even if i'm totally wrong and it was all a big accident, he still deserves to be locked up for years anyway :x
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby gh » Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:00 pm

somehow, this is all starting to have the touch and feel of a creative writing class :mrgreen:
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby mump boy » Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:47 pm

Oscar Pistorious has held a "private' memorial for Reeva,

http://news.sky.com/story/1057309/pisto ... -for-reeva

yet manages to tell the whole world about it !!
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby user4 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:14 pm

mump boy wrote: Yet, if he was really so paranoid that the armed patrols and other neighborhood security measures didn't satisfy him, why was his property not protected by a fence, and his windows and doors not barred? Why didn't he have an activated alarm system? Just one more thing in his story that makes no sense.


Indeed.

mump boy wrote: How and why did burglars manage to climb in a bathroom window on (at least) the 2nd floor, in a gated community that hadn't had a break in for 5 years ?? Why would they lock themselves in a bathroom cubicle ?

analyzing the machinations of a bald-faced liar is a fools errand.

mump boy wrote:If they had, why not fire a warning shot ?Why not call the police ?

firing a warning shot is usually not a good idea in a residential environment. The great efficacy of a firearm is that you can instantly stop a murderer. Guns should never be used unless innocent life is in great and immediate danger and you are certain that you are shooting to stop a violent crime. That is a rough summary approximation, in common language, of the law in most states in the US . SA may vary from this but I doubt by very much. I dont own a gun but I have read many cases where women have saved their lives and the lives of their children during a home invasion with the use of a firearm. It might be said that the best defense against rape or murder that a woman has is a firearm, not her boyfriend.

mump boy wrote:We've already gone over, why not tell your girlfriend ?

he was in the process of murdering her.

mump boy wrote:I may not live in SA but i do live in a particularly dodgy part of London and i have a spare room that different models stay on all the time. There is not a scenario in the world in which i wake up and hear noises in the bathroom and assume it's robbers rather than the other people in my house.
I don't live in a gated community and the other people aren't sleeping in the bed next to me but it is inconceivable that i would indiscriminately shoot at persons unknown !!

you are a reasonable person.
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Re: Inspector Clouseau is alive and well in Pretoria

Postby 26mi235 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:44 pm

OP said that she did not call out; we are missing her testimony. His testimony can be checked for consistency and feasibility, but little that he says can readily be taken as reliable in any normal, or legal sense.
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