Cain's running form [split]


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Cain's running form [split]

Postby az2004 » Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:12 am

the cain article in the recent t&fnews has salazar talking about her bad armswing from barcelona being the technical factor she needed to correct

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bizYesRYzN4

video shows what he was talking about
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Re: mary cain at indoor nationals in NM

Postby Marlow » Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:58 am

az2004 wrote:salazar talking about her bad armswing

Pot, calling kettle - come in kettle?

Salazar's gait was one of the more unseemly of his time and it seemed to have worked OK. Yes, her biomechanics leave something to be desired, but tinker with her form at your peril!
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Re: mary cain at indoor nationals in NM

Postby 26mi235 » Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:15 am

Marlow wrote:
az2004 wrote:salazar talking about her bad armswing

Pot, calling kettle - come in kettle?

Salazar's gait was one of the more unseemly of his time and it seemed to have worked OK. Yes, her biomechanics leave something to be desired, but tinker with her form at your peril!


I think he is on record as saying his biomechanics cost him.
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Re: mary cain at indoor nationals in NM

Postby az2004 » Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:11 am

http://www.runnerspace.com/video.php?video_id=6588

salazar video on running form

at the 3 minute mark, i think there;s the basic problem he saw in cain in the 4:11 race

i'd think henwood, day to day is more responsible for smoothing out cain than anyone

salazar was ragged in his day, but making cain more flexible will help her

the 60 from 50 miles per week is not a huge leap
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Re: mary cain at indoor nationals in NM

Postby aaronk » Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:18 am

az2004 wrote:the cain article in the recent t&fnews has salazar talking about her bad armswing from barcelona being the technical factor she needed to correct

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bizYesRYzN4

video shows what he was talking about


I would say......
Tara Erdmann in Seattle
Heather Wilson in NYC (the 1st HSR in the mile)
Erdmann AGAIN in Boston
Sarah Bowman in Boston
Ashley Higginson in Boston
Bowman AGAIN in the Armory (the SECOND HSR in the mile)
Jordan Hasay in the Armory
Abbey D'Agostino in the Armory
Emma Coburn in the Armory
AND a few OTHERS......

might tend to disagree with that assessment!! :D

A FACT:

The only women she has NOT beaten this indoor season are:

Sarah Bowman and Nicole Sifuentes in the 1st HSR mile.....
Sheila Reid in the 2 mile and the 2nd HSR in the mile.....
and the UNbeatable Tirunesh Dibaba!!!

She has beaten EVERYONE ELSE!!!
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Re: mary cain at indoor nationals in NM

Postby az2004 » Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:37 am

i though cain beat bowman at millrose??

did you read the t&f newws article

the 4:11 you can see waht salazar was talking about

the cross crooss of the arms is evident in 2011

salazar and henwood have worked on upper body flexibity

the criss cross is gone


aronnk you know i like cain alot, but the article poinyed out what a good coach can do

henwood and salazar have good eyes

also the mention of her running in college, dont know if it'll be the ajee model, or the hasay model
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Re: mary cain at indoor nationals in NM

Postby aaronk » Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:09 am

az2004 wrote:i though cain beat bowman at millrose??

did you read the t&f newws article

the 4:11 you can see waht salazar was talking about

the cross crooss of the arms is evident in 2011

salazar and henwood have worked on upper body flexibity

the criss cross is gone


aronnk you know i like cain alot, but the article poinyed out what a good coach can do

henwood and salazar have good eyes

also the mention of her running in college, dont know if it'll be the ajee model, or the hasay model


Yes, she beat Bowman at Millrose!!
(All but Reid!!)
My list was of women she BEAT.....those who LOST to her (in a particular race!).
She LOST to Bowman in her first HSR mile, but BEAT her at Millrose!!

As to her arm swing, it might be "improved", but I side with Marlow.....

Don't mess with what works!!
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Re: mary cain at indoor nationals in NM

Postby KevinM » Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:28 am

aaronk wrote:As to her arm swing, it might be "improved", but I side with Marlow.....

Don't mess with what works!!


Isn't that the point of the conversation (and of all coaching)? They're attempting to "mess" with a part that is sub-optimal (i.e., that doesn't "work").
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Re: mary cain at indoor nationals in NM

Postby Dutra5 » Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:39 am

Salazar is not trying to have Mary Cain beat Sarah Bowman.
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Re: mary cain at indoor nationals in NM

Postby az2004 » Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:02 am

i respect marlowe, but salazar was very specific

salazar did say ehr footstrike and and loweer body mechanics are quite ggood

there was a mention of personality conflicts with her hs team

salazar saw the video and contacted cain abouther upper body mechanics

her arms were crossing her upper body completely
and mixing it up

her elbows were way way out

at hs she'd always lead from the start, but salazar has her let others lead, staying calm and staying relaxed

focusing on the kick and honing that skill

salazar and henwood focusing on nut;s and bolts of biomechanics, intervals and stretching

apparently this is the same stuff salazar did for rupp at jesuit

it's all about making you a complete runner 10 years down the stretch
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Re: mary cain at indoor nationals in NM

Postby az2004 » Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:08 am

Dutra5 wrote:Salazar is not trying to have Mary Cain beat Sarah Bowman.




he is looking into cain future and making her the best runner she may be, one day running the sort of race farah and rupp have shown themseles able to run
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Re: mary cain at indoor nationals in NM

Postby Master Po » Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:31 pm

26mi235 wrote:
Marlow wrote:
az2004 wrote:salazar talking about her bad armswing

Pot, calling kettle - come in kettle?

Salazar's gait was one of the more unseemly of his time and it seemed to have worked OK. Yes, her biomechanics leave something to be desired, but tinker with her form at your peril!


I think he is on record as saying his biomechanics cost him.


Yes, he has observed that about himself, as he has about his approaches to training, which both led him to great performances and also cost him. I think if the Salazar of today could coach the Salazar of 30ish years ago, he would try to address some of these issues (and would, I believe, have an even faster Salazar). (I will keep working on my time machine and the needed metaphysical theories to make this scenario feasible...)

Here's a more general question, for Marlow -- One thing I have never understood in T& F coaching is what you expressed here. I've heard it from so many over the years, always regarding distance runners: Don't mess with their form. But we work on technique, mechanics, efficiency, and every darn thing we can reasonably address, with every other discipline in the sport. Why not with distance runners? The challenge is the same here as with any coach in any part of the sport: There is always risk ("tinkering at our peril") in addressing the "natural" ways any gifted athlete executes her or his event, but great coaches know what to address, to what extent, in order to make those marginal improvements toward maximizing potential. Less than great coaches misdiagnose, overcorrect, etc. and screw things up. That's the territory of coaching. Nevertheless, Why have I always heard more "peril" expressed around addressing these things with distance runners than with anyone else in the sport? The fact that distance running is "less technical" can't be the answer, because technique, mechanics, efficiency always matters. We're always trying to find the best transfer of energy into forward motion, etc. I am interested in your thoughts on this. :)
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Re: mary cain at indoor nationals in NM

Postby 26mi235 » Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:34 pm

Her head is also way out in front of her body. I have a lesser version of this and it caused me problems. That is a lot of weight to have cantilevered in front of her.
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Re: mary cain at indoor nationals in NM

Postby aaronk » Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:57 pm

Back in the mid-70's, when my hair was BELOW my shoulders....and THICK......I was told by San Francisco's late Walter Stack (Remember him, anyone??) that.....if I cut my hair, I could chop a minute per mile off my marathon time!!! :lol: :lol:

More seriously, I was told by a coach (Not MY coach, but one I knew well!) that I "bounced too much" when I ran....and that I could improve my times greatly if I could stop bouncing!!
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Re: mary cain at indoor nationals in NM

Postby az2004 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 4:53 am

the salazar video on running form speaks on head placement


suspect henwood and salazar have long term plans for cain

seems there short term approach has results
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Re: mary cain at indoor nationals in NM

Postby Mighty Favog » Sat Feb 23, 2013 7:05 am

My suspicion regarding why coaches are reluctant to work on a distance runner's form is that most distance coaches don't know squat about technique or biomechanics. My high school coach didn't know much about distance running (I trained far too little and did far too much interval work) but as a strong technical sprint/jump/hurdle coach, he fixed my truly awful mechanics. In the long run this was very good, because I had just one injury in all my college years even while putting in triple-digit weekly mileage.

When you've got a coach who understands both the training and technique aspect of distance running, then you've got a good one.
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Re: mary cain at indoor nationals in NM

Postby Marlow » Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:43 am

KevinM wrote:
aaronk wrote:As to her arm swing, it might be "improved", but I side with Marlow.....
Don't mess with what works!!

Isn't that the point of the conversation (and of all coaching)? They're attempting to "mess" with a part that is sub-optimal (i.e., that doesn't "work").

I am a big fan of bio-mechanical efficiency, and it is indeed a coach's job to help an athlete achieve that, but . . . sometimes athletes instinctively do what's best for THEM, even though it doesn't fit the 'model', and many times (not all) they are right. A good coach must tinker with, but not break, his/her athletes' form.
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Re: mary cain at indoor nationals in NM

Postby Conor Dary » Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:02 am

Marlow wrote:
KevinM wrote:
aaronk wrote:As to her arm swing, it might be "improved", but I side with Marlow.....
Don't mess with what works!!

Isn't that the point of the conversation (and of all coaching)? They're attempting to "mess" with a part that is sub-optimal (i.e., that doesn't "work").

I am a big fan of bio-mechanical efficiency, and it is indeed a coach's job to help an athlete achieve that, but . . . sometimes athletes instinctively do what's best for THEM, even though it doesn't fit the 'model', and many times (not all) they are right. A good coach must tinker with, but not break, his/her athletes' form.


We have talked about this quite a few times before and I agree with that. I have been running about 45 years with a lot of 100+ weeks starting in high school and really never had a major running injury and still doing about 4-5 a day. And that was running a lot in Tiger Marathons that have a 1/2 inch hard cushioning. You just learn to run that is comfortable. And I think Salazar is doing a bit of wishful thinking about his running career. His form wasn't that bad. Little shoulder roll, arms relaxed. Perhaps a bit of overstriding. But to think his career was short because of his running form is a bit much. Salazar's problem really started when he ran Boston only 10 days after a 10,000 in Eugene.

As for running form in general Jack Daniels has done a lot of research on this and the verdict is leave well enough alone.

    When Bill Rodgers was the best marathoner in the world in the late 1970s, a biomechanist named Peter Cavanagh tested him in his lab at Penn State. As part of the test, Cavanagh had Rodgers "fix" his trademark across-the-body right arm swing. The result? Running with more textbook form, Rodgers' running economy, or oxygen cost at the same pace, was higher. That is, changing Rodgers' form to something thought to be better made it harder for him to run a given pace.

    In the more than three decades since that lab experiment, a take-home message from it has been endlessly repeated: Don't mess with your running form. Over time, your body will find its best way of running. The more you run, the more your body will find its natural form. Just run, baby.

    For starters, let's go back to the Rodgers experiment. No reputable source claims that, at any one instant, significantly altering your form from what your body is used to will make you faster. Coaching legend and longtime lab rat Jack Daniels has tested thousands of runners over the last 40 years. "I have tested runners' economy of running with their hands in their pockets, on their hips, folded on top of their heads, etc., and it always costs more than when using a normal arm swing," he says.



http://www.runnersworld.com/race-traini ... age=single
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Re: Cain's running form [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:08 am

I would like to add, that one of the best, and essential, ways to improve form is running intervals or at least something fast once in a while. Something a lot joggers never do.
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Re: Cain's running form [split]

Postby gh » Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:11 am

Salazar was a shuffler par excellence. I remember being at a meet once and somebody joked that he was lifting less than the walkers.
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Re: Cain's running form [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:46 am

Yea, he didn't have much of a back kick at all. Viren was like that too, a very low back kick. But no one goes around saying what shitty form he had. Just different physiques.

Another point is I think running on hard surfaces, such as roads, as good for you. That pounding really makes you run efficiently. Running on grass all of the time lets you get away with murder. Watch the 1983 NYC marathon sometime and notice the difference between Geoff Smith and the winner Rod Dixon. Dixon has a fast quick turnover, while Smith is in the air much longer with way too much lift. Years later, Smith eventually needed a hip replacement and doesn't run anymore, while Dixon is still racing pretty well for his age.

On a similar note, I remember the first time these sisters from England came to Boulder years ago. I went on a 10 mile run with them and we spent the whole time trying to run on grass. It drove me nuts since Boulder isn't known for big grassy areas, but that was what they were use to. They were also known for their rather unorthodox running form, and I think led to their rather short, but excellent, careers. I tried to help with some advice but it was rather hopeless.
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Re: Cain's running form [split]

Postby TN1965 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:38 am

That Rodgers experiment only indicates that changing forms becomes harder as a runner gets older and has accumulated more mileage on feet.

That's why Salazar insists it's important to learn the efficient form when a runner is very early in his/her career. Trying to change Ritz's running form was a mistake (he was too old and advanced for that), but Cain is young enough to change her form. And he is not trying to fundamentally revamp her form. What they are trying to do is to make adjustment based on her current form.

Does any one here believe James Li did disservice to Lagat by changing his form at Washington State? Would he have had a career as long and successful with his original form?

(As for Salazar's early demise, the #1 culprit was probably not taking enough rest when needed. That's why he is giving his runners plenty of rest like 2 weeks break at the end of a season.)
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Re: mary cain at indoor nationals in NM

Postby Dave » Sat Feb 23, 2013 11:18 am

26mi235 wrote:
Marlow wrote:
az2004 wrote:salazar talking about her bad armswing

Pot, calling kettle - come in kettle?

Salazar's gait was one of the more unseemly of his time and it seemed to have worked OK. Yes, her biomechanics leave something to be desired, but tinker with her form at your peril!


I think he is on record as saying his biomechanics cost him.


Not to mention that one would hope that he would learn over the years as that remark would indicate he had.
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Re: Cain's running form [split]

Postby no one » Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:25 pm

bad form that needed correction:

Zatopek gee he's all over the place
Gammoudi - especially when kicking
Prefontaine had a bad habit of looking to the left
Keino
Ryun bobbled head
Kidd
Lee Evans
Bob Hayes - not smooth enough
Cruz over strider
Juantorena another over strider
Fosbury - not a distance guy but his form needed major help
Marsh - form passable but racing strategy too unorthodox
Wolhulter
Symmonds
Jenner - too much side to side and head movement when tired

thats just off top of my head where there is a greater or lesser need for attention to form

More (or less seriously) these guys maintained their idiosyncratic form after their school years and into post HS and collegiate seasons. I do concur that messin with the form of a female runner who ran 2:03 as a frosh (or is it soph) is risky business. And the pot calling kettle is what I thought when the "she needs to fix her form" announcement was uttered.

I had a team mate in college who ran completely on his toes - heels never touch the ground. There had been a number of efforts to rectify. No luck. He ended up running 2:17 marathon ... back in the day and was nationally ranked (TFN) I think two years. Plus he was one of the first 10 or so guys to break 9:00 2 mile in HS (as a Jr) - all on his toes.

I guess AL can give it a go but I would be leery of become so focused on that ......

OK have at it boys
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Re: Cain's running form [split]

Postby TN1965 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:37 pm

Conor Dary wrote:Another point is I think running on hard surfaces, such as roads, as good for you. That pounding really makes you run efficiently. Running on grass all of the time lets you get away with murder.


Yeah, that's why Lagat had such a short career, right? He runs on grass all the time, and James Li forced him to change his "natural" form.

Damn, if he was allowed to run on hard surfaces in his natural form, he would still be competing in 1500m instead of moving up to 5000m.

And of course, Nike wasted their money by building a wood chip running loop on their campus. Mo, Galen and Ritz would be more successful if they ran on the asphalt instead of dirt trail, wood chip and grass field. Too bad Salazar is so clueless. :wink:
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Re: Cain's running form [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:56 pm

I have never been a big fan of running on grass. Dirt roads are a different thing.

But different courses for different horses I say.... :lol:

Of course, the East Africans really learned proper form at an early age by running barefoot, or in very thin shoes on dirt roads.
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Re: Cain's running form [split]

Postby JumboElliott » Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:54 pm

I think we should give the benefit of the doubt to the guy who is coaching the two best track runners on the planet at this very moment.
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Re: Cain's running form [split]

Postby az2004 » Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:10 am

i think running fast mechanically properly is what salazar gets out of rupp and farah

cain shows no downside with henwood or salazar with similar techniques
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Re: mary cain at indoor nationals in NM

Postby 26mi235 » Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:59 am

Conor Dary wrote:As for running form in general Jack Daniels has done a lot of research on this and the verdict is leave well enough alone.

    When Bill Rodgers was the best marathoner in the world in the late 1970s, a biomechanist named Peter Cavanagh tested him in his lab at Penn State. As part of the test, Cavanagh had Rodgers "fix" his trademark across-the-body right arm swing. The result? Running with more textbook form, Rodgers' running economy, or oxygen cost at the same pace, was higher. That is, changing Rodgers' form to something thought to be better made it harder for him to run a given pace.

    For starters, let's go back to the Rodgers experiment. No reputable source claims that, at any one instant, significantly altering your form from what your body is used to will make you faster. Coaching legend and longtime lab rat Jack Daniels has tested thousands of runners over the last 40 years. "I have tested runners' economy of running with their hands in their pockets, on their hips, folded on top of their heads, etc., and it always costs more than when using a normal arm swing," he says.



That Rodgers experiment only indicates that changing forms becomes harder as a runner gets older and has accumulated more mileage on feet.


When you have a form element that is not terrible but maybe one we think of as 'not optimal', when you first adjust to the 'optimal' form you are likely to be less efficient, so you have to be a little careful. Both the posters above are careful.

In cycling, a lot of riders push to big of gears. When you try to get them to change they do not perform as well (at first) because they have better muscle motor coordination in the pattern that they have trained in. However, it is often the case that if they train at the 'better' form for a while they will get better at it. The Li/Lagat bit above is an illustration. A similar but also somewhat different story holds for events like the pole vault, where a vaulter's form has to be reconstructed and it takes a while to get this done -- and it does not always succeed.
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Re: Cain's running form [split]

Postby John G » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:31 am

I agree it is probably impossible and counter-productive to radically alter an elite runners style once they are in their 20s. However, a little tinkering can go a long way. Even to the untrained eye it had been obvious for years that Mo overstrided when he kicked. Salazar has fixed that and according to Mo continued to remind him of it right up to the moment he took to the track in London. Without that small modification, he wouldn't have held off Gebremeskel.
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Re: Cain's running form [split]

Postby Half Miler » Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:56 am

JumboElliott wrote:I think we should give the benefit of the doubt to the guy who is coaching the two best track runners on the planet at this very moment.


Glen Mills?
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Re: Cain's running form [split]

Postby halharkness » Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:05 pm

Are many of you saying that at age 16 with years and years of running ahead, everything is set in stone? What's the benefit of elite coaching?
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Re: Cain's running form [split]

Postby az2004 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:19 pm

some of what salazar is working on is her race tactics, taking the lead in hs and running away because shes simply superior

now there's better tactics, learning how to race, and kicking at the end with savy runners

sheila reid is teaching cain a lot

sure salaar has fixed her upper body flexibity

but he admits her lower body, and footplant are fine

it' all about 10 years from now

and i think the problem alberto saw in the race is no longer evident
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Re: Cain's running form [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:54 pm

halharkness wrote:Are many of you saying that at age 16 with years and years of running ahead, everything is set in stone? What's the benefit of elite coaching?


Good coaches can do wonders for an athlete. But when it comes to form, really not much.
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Re: Cain's running form [split]

Postby halharkness » Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:08 pm

Sorry, but I totally disagree, especially at her age.
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Re: Cain's running form [split]

Postby az2004 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:33 pm

i agree with you and salazar, the way the arms were crossing her body in barcelona in 2011, is not happening in any of her races this year like in the 2011 4:11 race
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Re: Cain's running form [split]

Postby TN1965 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:58 pm

Here are two things I don't understand.

1. If coaches cannot / should not change a runner's "natural" form, does that hold true for sprinters as well?

2. If the argument is "inefficient forms worked for so-and-so (fill in your favorite past runner)" why should we believe they could not have possibly run faster with better forms?

Does any one recommend a middle distance runner today to follow Lydiard's linear periodization? Sure it "worked" for Snell, didn't it? I bet Snell himself would train differently if he were a young athlete today.
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Re: Cain's running form [split]

Postby az2004 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:51 am

http://www.iaaf.org/news/feature/cain-s ... -very-able

photo of cains arm position

article on 2013 indoor season
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Re: Cain's running form [split]

Postby lonewolf » Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:21 pm

Her cross body arm swing does seem extreme...I assume that photo is during her sprint and not typical of her entire race.
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Re: Cain's running form [split]

Postby az2004 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:43 pm

http://ny.milesplit.com/meets/126486/videos?id=33708


here;s the millrose mile video with armswing

the 4:11 barcelona video

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=mar ... FORM=VIRE1

you can see what salazar was talking about

i think he form in millrose, not perfect is better
Last edited by az2004 on Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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