GBR Women's Indoor 400m and 4x400m

[samthemainman]

I've seen a slightly different set of times too as well as those mump quotes... I seem to remember:

50.6 TBO
50.8 Marilyn
49.7 Lee (that was what they told her split was at the end of the race - I remember the interview) - it was a very good run
48.78 Nicola

There are probably a few hundredths unaccounted for there but I reckon that is more reflective. For me the most surprising split of recent times is Kelly Sotherton's second legs - 50.3 or thereabouts for Beijing?

Lee McConnell has had such great longevity in the relays.

[samthemainman]

Last point Gwen's 49 first leg in 93 was awesome, her individual pb was 49.64 !! remind you of anyone else ??

Erm... Ledovskaya - 50 flat lead off in 1988?
Sanya Richards - whatever it was in Daegu?

[Rineanna]

Whatever happened to Helen Karagounis?

[samthemainman]

Whatever happened to Helen Karagounis?

I remember she had a half decent run in the Manchester CG 2002 to overhaul a struggling Cathy Freeman - think she ran a 51.3 or something. I don't recall any other great performances - though to be fair she was around during a period of mediocrity in British 400m running - the post Merry and pre TBO/Sanders era.

[Rog]

Anyone heard of the term "jinx"? Our relay teams are the masters of underperforming, you know!

It's a pity about Nicola Sanders - her 48.8 relay leg was brilliant, and her indoor 400 record may well be the best performance ever by a British 400 runner, but she's had rotten luck with injuries. I suppose she's a good example of that other major jinx, that of the British female sprinter!

[mump boy]

Last point Gwen's 49 first leg in 93 was awesome, her individual pb was 49.64 !! remind you of anyone else ??

Erm... Ledovskaya - 50 flat lead off in 1988?
Sanya Richards - whatever it was in Daegu?

I meant the individual pb

I got all the times from here

http://www.alltime-athletics.com/w4x400ok.htm

[samthemainman]

[/quote]

I meant the individual pb

I got all the times from here

http://www.alltime-athletics.com/w4x400ok.htm[/quote]

Ah ok - I get it!! Very true. Although I reckon Torrence's PB of 49.64 would be around a second quicker had she ever run it at a majors... I seem to remember both her and Privalova running a 49.8 at a low-key invidual prior to Stuttgart - more or less equalling Jearl Miles winning time.

I'm not 100% sure about the All-time athletics site - there are some gaps and some inaccuracies I think. Peter Matthews may be a better starting point. I do remember the Osaka splits being all over the place in the stats though... including Alison Felix's leg, ranging from 48.0 to 48.5...

[mump boy]

Gwen was definitely worth more, she ran that time when she 'stepped into the Perec zone' in Nice

[Rog]

I reckon Torrence was worth around 48 flat, she ran that 49 on the first leg in something like her 10th race of a Championships in which she was basically below form. Privalova too was below her best but ran 48.4 on her anchor leg when too far behind to contest gold - I would imagine she could have run close to 48 as well. Pretty sure FloJo could have run 48 also, remember her 48.1 anchor from Seoul?

I think that's one of the reasons the times from the 80s have gone unapproached - the best athletes have concentrated on the short sprints rather than the 400, which was the glamour event from the mid 70s to mid 80s thanks to Szewinska, Koch and Kratochvilova.

[samthemainman]

Gwen Torrence was one feisty lady. I used to enjoy her stand offs with Privalova and Devers. She was probably very tired as you say - but I would argue she was probably in better 400m form than we might think - I remember the Barcelona 92 4x400m when she ran second leg and 'only' mustered a 49.6, after winning the 200m title.

She was certainly quick to point the finger at who she saw as 'cheating' competitors.

1993 was one of the worst years for flat running (Miles winning the WC in 49.82 isn't exactly lightning) but the 3:16.72 was a 4x400m which wasn't bettered for years after thanks to a solid US team.

Back on the UK front though - I'm keen to see what a half-decent 200m runner (like Adeoye) can bring to the party. I remember seeing Katherine Merry run a great 3rd leg in the 1998 ECs - her first ever relay - she clocked a 50.4 I think - and thinking - she HAS to change events. Shame Merry was so injury prone. Her Athens GP 49.59 was lightning.

[mump boy]

There are so many people who stick with the sprints when they should move up.

Grace Jackson never ran 400m at champs, Muriel Hurtis left it too late, Marlon and Christian should have done it

Imagine what Vernicha would have done

[samthemainman]

Vernicha could have been awesome. I remember her 4x100m 3rd legs were always really good - we had a brief spell in her era where our 4x100m girls were posted a couple of sub 43 times over 2001-2002.

I think she ran a couple of 4x4 legs - sub 52s (A 51.69 in the 2002 WJs) -- but alas it wasn't to be. What about Amy Spencer???? Another one we lost out on seeing mature. She ran a good indoor 400m leg in 2003... then disappeared.

There is some good historical split data here from pre-2006 (shame the site wasn't maintained):

http://gbrathletics.com/uk/

[mump boy]

Vernicha could have been awesome. I remember her 4x100m 3rd legs were always really good - we had a brief spell in her era where our 4x100m girls were posted a couple of sub 43 times over 2001-2002.

I think she ran a couple of 4x4 legs - sub 52s (A 51.69 in the 2002 WJs) -- but alas it wasn't to be. What about Amy Spencer???? Another one we lost out on seeing mature. She ran a good indoor 400m leg in 2003... then disappeared.

There is some good historical split data here from pre-2006 (shame the site wasn't maintained):

http://gbrathletics.com/uk/

Soon after Vernicha was rumoured to run a 50. something in a 4x4 (maybe when they won Euro Jnr in 01) she went up to Kathrine Merry and said "I'm gonna get you" Katherine thought it was hilarious

[iain]

Back to the topic
Squad for Euro Indoors as expected:
400m - Eilidh Child, Shana Cox, Perri Shakes-Drayton
4x400m - Child, Cox, Shakes-Drayton, Margaret Adeoye, Meghan Beesley, Christine Ohuruogu

Who would've guessed we'd be leaving a 53.2 girl at home :O

[peach77]

Did Marge Adeoye not want to be selected for the 400? Only I'd have LOVED to have seen her have a go at it after the weekend and see what she could do. Might have given her a good idea whether to try for the outdoors at that event too...

[26mi235]

Yes, it is sometimes interesting seeing what the sprinters will do in the 4x400. Last year at the NCAA meet English Gardner (she is American, not English ), who won the 100, ran a stunning 50.x leg in the 4x400 (outdoor).

[mump boy]

Did Marge Adeoye not want to be selected for the 400? Only I'd have LOVED to have seen her have a go at it after the weekend and see what she could do. Might have given her a good idea whether to try for the outdoors at that event too...

She couldn't be selected Shana cane 2nd at trials and had QT

[samthemainman]

Shana seems like a nice girl but last year she went backwards -- didn't she do a 52.7 opener for us in the Olympic 4x4 final??

I reckon she'll end up in the Gothernburg 4x4 squad regardless to be honest unless she bombs out - though she's clearly number 5 or 6 in the pecking order.

[iain]

She did a 52.6 (poor) although to be fair to her she was in the outside lane and ran a 51.6 lead off in the heat. I actually half think UKA might get it right for once. Tempting fate there

[mump boy]

Exactly

[26mi235]

No, I think that they have their cross products all wrong because in this group multiplication is not cummutative and many of those "a"s need to be moved further back in the order...

[John G]

Did Marge Adeoye not want to be selected for the 400? Only I'd have LOVED to have seen her have a go at it after the weekend and see what she could do. Might have given her a good idea whether to try for the outdoors at that event too...

I was at the NIA and she looked silky smooth. I know appearances can be deceptive but I thought she could have gone past Beesley earlier and run several tenths faster than her 52.45. My first thought was that she could do a Jon Regis for us in the relay. 3rd leg would be perfect. The 2nd leg needs an experienced relay runner (like Nicola) to handle the break from lanes and the 1st leg needs someone with the experience of the distance to focus on their own pace and not race too soon to close down the long stagger.

I thought she could have run 52.1. The tight bends cost her at least 0.5. Then factor in 0.7 for a rolling start and you're looking at a 50.x relay runner in the summer.

[mump boy]

I've just had a rather worrying but predictable condo with a a very well know UK coach, who tells me that powers that be are considering running Shana here in Gothenburg ??

Apparently Margaret is a 'risk' and they want to play it safe

WTFF

[t_monk]

Late to the discussion but Russia isn't fielding a 4x400 team? I am going through the start list and there seem to be only a handful of Russians competing at all. Focusing on Moscow?

[az2004]

the russians have 2nd line girls in the 400

although klishina is lj andd has the lead now

their 1500 who had wr and was out for blood doping did run he 1500, she needs racing

suspect in moscow their 4X4 will be very tough

[eldanielfire]

Late to the discussion but Russia isn't fielding a 4x400 team? I am going through the start list and there seem to be only a handful of Russians competing at all. Focusing on Moscow?

They have very much brought the 'C' team so I'm guessing they are focused on Moscow naturally.

[samthemainman]

Mump - I'm not surprised by your comment on Margaret/Shana but I hope you're wrong (as I'm sure you are too). Shana will be a lot more experienced - but come on UKA, this is a Euro Indoor 4x400m. Margaret's in great form, Shana isn't. Stick her on a middle leg - what have you got to worry about? Providing she doesn't go shooting off I don't get the risk. Put Shana on 1st and she's the kind of runner that will always hand over in 3rd....

[mump boy]

Mump - I'm not surprised by your comment on Margaret/Shana but I hope you're wrong (as I'm sure you are too). Shana will be a lot more experienced - but come on UKA, this is a Euro Indoor 4x400m. Margaret's in great form, Shana isn't. Stick her on a middle leg - what have you got to worry about? Providing she doesn't go shooting off I don't get the risk. Put Shana on 1st and she's the kind of runner that will always hand over in 3rd....

It's politics

Who's Shana's coach ??

[athlete101]

Mump - I'm not surprised by your comment on Margaret/Shana but I hope you're wrong (as I'm sure you are too). Shana will be a lot more experienced - but come on UKA, this is a Euro Indoor 4x400m. Margaret's in great form, Shana isn't. Stick her on a middle leg - what have you got to worry about? Providing she doesn't go shooting off I don't get the risk. Put Shana on 1st and she's the kind of runner that will always hand over in 3rd....

It's politics

Who's Shana's coach ??

No longer with Lloyd Cowan so that argument will not hold. She is now back working in the States.

[peach77]

I honestly can't believe they're going to put Shana in over Marg- SURELY!? She's going to be tired (as will Perri and Elidh as well) and I can't fathom how someone with almost half a second on her and, more importantly, fresh legs would be ignored!

Oh hold on. It's British Athletics. As you were...

[samthemainman]

Seriously if Margaret isn't in (I think she's LESS of a risk than TBO to be fair - at least she has actually run the 400m distance indoors!) we should all kick off big time in the form of MASS PROTEST.... what is such a risk about her? It must be politics as Mump says - is it in the form of 'If Shana's crossing the Atlantic, she has to be in the relay too' or something to do with coaches.

Let's see anyway... Why can't we take a risk.

On paper we should at the very least be able to make 2nd on the World All-time list of all girls run to form... that 2nd position is currently held by Australia if my memory serves me right.

With Shana on the team we'll get a 53 or 52.8 leg at best. No offence to Shana as she seems lovely but she's not in her 2011-early 2012 form.

[mump boy]

Mump - I'm not surprised by your comment on Margaret/Shana but I hope you're wrong (as I'm sure you are too). Shana will be a lot more experienced - but come on UKA, this is a Euro Indoor 4x400m. Margaret's in great form, Shana isn't. Stick her on a middle leg - what have you got to worry about? Providing she doesn't go shooting off I don't get the risk. Put Shana on 1st and she's the kind of runner that will always hand over in 3rd....

It's politics

Who's Shana's coach ??

No longer with Lloyd Cowan so that argument will not hold. She is now back working in the States.

But she was coached by Lloyd and when she's in the UK who does she train with ??

[athlete101]

I don't believe it is Lloyd. She left after the Olympics and this indoor would be her first return to the UK.

Its not political...UKA/BA wanted all individual athletes to run in the relay and gave them first refusal. Mens & Womens. Especially considering all three representatives made their respective Finals. For that reason alone I do not see any problem with that decision.

[mump boy]

I don't believe it is Lloyd. She left after the Olympics and this indoor would be her first return to the UK.

Its not political...UKA/BA wanted all individual athletes to run in the relay and gave them first refusal. Mens & Womens. Especially considering all three representatives made their respective Finals. For that reason alone I do not see any problem with that decision.

Who are you, Shana's mum ? it's ludicrous

Not only is MA considerably faster but she is fresh and Shana only made final because someone fell over and someone else was DQ'd and ended up running outside 53.

Do you honestly think a hungry, fresh, faster MA would run worse in the relay ??

The fact that UKA wanted all individual athletes to run in relay makes is absolutely political. It's nothing to do with who has better form but ticking boxes. Shana's lucky she's even in the team through the trials MA is blatantly faster and has more speed which is key indoors

[samthemainman]

If Shana really has been chosen by default under first refusal, as a runner in the individual, it is indeed ludicrous. With that kind of strategy we would never have had medal winning performances in the past featuring John Regis, Kriss Akabusi or Jennifer Stoute to name but a few... they need to choose the best people. They can't be doing deals to say 'if you qualify for the individual you're a shoe in for the relay' - if your form sucks between the trials and relay day you're spoiling our chances. If this works for the outdoor season too - we're stuffed. We could get 3 qualifiers for the individual getting refusal so any 400 hurdler or 200m who could do a better job gets left on the sidelines?? Infuriating.

I see the running order on the website has been posted as Child, Cox, TBO and PSD. While it could be worse - Margaret would have been a secret weapon. Instead we have 3 tired athletes and 1 fresh legged TBO whose leg could go either way.... I have every faith they can win gold, but not as easily as with Adeoye. The Russian line up with be rock solid.

UKA/British Athletics --- sit up and listen please and stop these daft choices!!! Why pay people salaries when you have people on this forum who know the runners better.