restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

[Fortius19]

And on a sorta-related note, why are there no AmHS records, like there are AmC records kept seperately from the overall college records?

I understand AmC to represent American born Collegian. Correct?

I realize that foriegners occupy American T&F College teams much more often than American T&F HS teams, but now we have the case of Chelenga.

If HS records represent American HS records and Sam was born in Kenya but now runs for an American HS, I don't think he should have an (American) HS record.

Or, at the very least, have HS and AmHS records like for college athletes.

[batonless relay]

And on a sorta-related note, why are there no AmHS records, like there are AmC records kept seperately from the overall college records?

I understand AmC to represent American born Collegian. Correct?

I realize that foriegners occupy American T&F College teams much more often than American T&F HS teams, but now we have the case of Chelenga.

If HS records represent American HS records and Sam was born in Kenya but now runs for an American HS, I don't think he should have an (American) HS record.

Or, at the very least, have HS and AmHS records like for college athletes.

Being born outside of the United States has nothing to do with high school records, only NATIONAL records (national being american junior records or age group). HS records, to my knowledge (or as far back as I know), have never been restricted to only American born athletes or athletes with American citizenship. Chelenga is deserving of the record.

[Marlow]

Being born outside of the United States has nothing to do with high school records, only NATIONAL records (national being american junior records or age group). HS records, to my knowledge (or as far back as I know), have never been restricted to only American born athletes or athletes with American citizenship. Chelenga is deserving of the record.

That's not the question. The question is: if "American-citizen" College records are kept, why aren't "American-citizen" HS records kept? The answer lies in who is keeping such records. There are no 'official' citizen college records, but T&FN keeps tabs on them anyway. No one has bothered to do that for HS, though I imagine that T&FN would indeed make that distinction if the situation arose. It hasn't come up as often as the collegiate issue has (often!). Note that the current bPV HSR is held by a dual citizenship boy (who has opted to represent Canada in Jr comp).

[polevaultpower]

Being born outside of the United States has nothing to do with high school records, only NATIONAL records (national being american junior records or age group). HS records, to my knowledge (or as far back as I know), have never been restricted to only American born athletes or athletes with American citizenship. Chelenga is deserving of the record.

That's not the question. The question is: if "American-citizen" College records are kept, why aren't "American-citizen" HS records kept? The answer lies in who is keeping such records. There are no 'official' citizen college records, but T&FN keeps tabs on them anyway. No one has bothered to do that for HS, though I imagine that T&FN would indeed make that distinction if the situation arose. It hasn't come up as often as the collegiate issue has (often!). Note that the current bPV HSR is held by a dual citizenship boy (who has opted to represent Canada in Jr comp).

A few years ago, German exchange student Nico Weiler was taking shots at the BPV record, and T&FN said they would accept his mark if he broke it.

[Marlow]

German exchange student Nico Weiler

That's one long 'exchange' - he's still here (now Harvard). Had a fun conversation with him at the NCAA East Region meet. I was the guy at the top of the runway (next to the athletes) that communicated their standards placements to the pit crew. Very happy, gregarious kid.

[batonless relay]

Being born outside of the United States has nothing to do with high school records, only NATIONAL records (national being american junior records or age group). HS records, to my knowledge (or as far back as I know), have never been restricted to only American born athletes or athletes with American citizenship. Chelenga is deserving of the record.

That's not the question. The question is: if "American-citizen" College records are kept, why aren't "American-citizen" HS records kept? The answer lies in who is keeping such records. There are no 'official' citizen college records, but T&FN keeps tabs on them anyway. No one has bothered to do that for HS, though I imagine that T&FN would indeed make that distinction if the situation arose. It hasn't come up as often as the collegiate issue has (often!). Note that the current bPV HSR is held by a dual citizenship boy (who has opted to represent Canada in Jr comp).

that isn't correct. historically, T&FN has included HS athletes who are not citizens of the USA as quasi-americans UNTIL they declared their intentions to compete for another country (Verzbicas?); making all lists, etc. It makes sense for T&FN to keep tabs for college because in most (nearly all) cases, these are temporary residents as opposed to naturalized citizens or green-card holders. Many team Jamaica athletes not born in the USA spent some time at high school in the USA (Cuthbert, Dwight Thomas, Jerome Young, to name a few; not sure about Patrina Allen) and would have been eligible, rightly in my opinion, had they broken records.

[Grasshopper]

Just to be clear, and for some added differences between the TnFN standards for HS and Collegiate records, the collegiate records should actually be called the NCAA D-1 records, as they don't/won't include performances from athletes in any other division.

[polevaultpower]

that isn't correct. historically, T&FN has included HS athletes who are not citizens of the USA as quasi-americans UNTIL they declared their intentions to compete for another country (Verzbicas?); making all lists, etc.

They accepted Barber's PV mark last summer, after he represented Canada at World Juniors.

I don't have a problem with that in his case, he was born and raised in America and set the record at a legit meet.

[Marlow]

historically, T&FN has included HS athletes who are not citizens of the USA as quasi-americans UNTIL they declared their intentions to compete for another country (Verzbicas?)

??!!
They've always added the ' mark after a non-citizen's name, but otherwise treated them as equals, 'declared' or not.

[26mi235]

If a collegian is red-shirting, is it still a collegiate record? This is the situation that has some similarity to Cain's current status; it is not the same, however.

[batonless relay]

that isn't correct. historically, T&FN has included HS athletes who are not citizens of the USA as quasi-americans UNTIL they declared their intentions to compete for another country (Verzbicas?); making all lists, etc.

They accepted Barber's PV mark last summer, after he represented Canada at World Juniors.

I don't have a problem with that in his case, he was born and raised in America and set the record at a legit meet.

born and raised is irrelevant, imo. Obviously, you disagree. Do you feel Sanya Richards, who wasn't born in the USA, was sufficiently American to set a high school record? How many years prior to competition must an athlete be in the USA before they're considered "raised"?

[batonless relay]

If a collegian is red-shirting, is it still a collegiate record? This is the situation that has some similarity to Cain's current status; it is not the same, however.

I don't think a red-shirting athlete should be able to get a record when they're not in college when we wouldn't think the same way of an athlete who declares pro after high school. if so, would allyson felix qualify? She was in college taking courses and the only thing different is she was getting paid legally for her services, something many collegiates have received under the table.

[halharkness]

Still missing the point, why does Track and Field News list Collegiate records on two lists, one for collegiate competition and one for open competition while in school?

It seems to me there should be a single set of standards for all school (high school/collegiate) related records by Track and Field News. What is different about collegians that they are split into two groups? The hand of the NCAA perhaps?

Using the collegiate model, High School records should also be on two lists, one while representing one's school in high school only meets and the other while competing in higher level meets, but still in school. Not too difficult to do and it establishes and consistency through the entire process.

[gh]

"the hand of the NCAA"??!!!!

Let me pull myself up off the floor from laughing before I respond to that.

The NCAA cares so little about Collegiate Records that it quit maintaining them 10 years or more ago. Why would they give a shit what we do? And if they did, do you seriously believe we'd follow their secret instructions?

You've been reading to many Ludlum novels.

[26mi235]

If a collegian is red-shirting, is it still a collegiate record? This is the situation that has some similarity to Cain's current status; it is not the same, however.

I don't think a red-shirting athlete should be able to get a record when they're not in college when we wouldn't think the same way of an athlete who declares pro after high school. if so, would allyson felix qualify? She was in college taking courses and the only thing different is she was getting paid legally for her services, something many collegiates have received under the table.

A redshirting student IS in college, and must be in college in good standing. It is different than being ineligible. However, the ineligible designation is a little tricky. Assume the athlete has used up Indoor eligibility but is competing outdoors. Do marks made indoors before he has left the school valid even though the student does not have eligibility or indoor?

[halharkness]

Gary, once your stop laughing, tell me why there are differing standards for listing records from one level to another in the same publication?

[aaronk]

Re GH's remarks earlier that schools are starting back in August now, with graduations in May.

So why not pull back that August 31st deadline to JULY 31st??

Aren't most of the post-season HS and JR meets in June and July??
So marks from those meets would still count as HS marks, and eligible for HSR's.
Only HS athletes who compete in August (Olympics, WC, DL meets) would be affected.

AAU JO's is often the first weekend of August. And for Pete's sake, if a HS athlete was good enough to qualify for Worlds or the Olympics why would you want to not include any marks set there?

What would be reasonable is to say that after mid-July or so, only marks from approved Championship meets can count for records.

Earlier, GH had stated that many schools are starting classes in August, instead of after Labor Day, and some start in mid or early August.

Since most WC and OG are in August or later, if a HS'er has entered college, he/she would NOT be eligible to break HSR's at the OG or WC anyway!!!
(Though, if they're an enrolled college athlete, and they set a mark good enough to be a CR, then that AUGUST mark WOULD be eligible for a CR!!!
That's why I said what I said.
Otherwise, sure, let them set marks at the OG or WC or DL meets in August!!
No problem!!

My biggest beef concerning HS or Collegiate records is that T&FN continues to mix indoor records with outdoor, and allow OT marks to be given as records!!

The PRIME example is in the March edition of T&FN!!
In the Collegiate records section, Jenny Simpson's INDOOR and OVERSIZE track mark of 15:01.70 for 5K is given as THE Collegiate record!!!
It is, at best, the INDOOR record!!
But it's not even THAT....as OT marks are NOT official records!!!
The outdoor CR for women's 5K is 15:07.64 by Jenny (Barringer) Simpson!!
The indoor record for 5K is held by Kim Smith, at 15:14.18!!!!!

[18.99s]

If a collegian is red-shirting, is it still a collegiate record? This is the situation that has some similarity to Cain's current status; it is not the same, however.

I don't think a red-shirting athlete should be able to get a record when they're not in college when we wouldn't think the same way of an athlete who declares pro after high school. if so, would allyson felix qualify? She was in college taking courses and the only thing different is she was getting paid legally for her services, something many collegiates have received under the table.

Felix lost her NCAA eligibility by going pro, and she wasn't taking a full-time load of classes 2 semesters a year. A redshirted athlete is still a full-time student with remaining NCAA eligibility.

[batonless relay]

If a collegian is red-shirting, is it still a collegiate record? This is the situation that has some similarity to Cain's current status; it is not the same, however.

I don't think a red-shirting athlete should be able to get a record when they're not in college when we wouldn't think the same way of an athlete who declares pro after high school. if so, would allyson felix qualify? She was in college taking courses and the only thing different is she was getting paid legally for her services, something many collegiates have received under the table.

Felix lost her NCAA eligibility by going pro, and she wasn't taking a full-time load of classes 2 semesters a year. A redshirted athlete is still a full-time student with remaining NCAA eligibility.

I do understand that; however, suppose there was an athlete that went to college and didn't run for the school, but also didn't turn pro (let's make this person a 10k runner) and they ran faster than the collegiate record...would it be a collegiate record? And, how would this be different from the current Cain situation (she doesn't run for her team yet she is setting "high school"records).

[26mi235]

The notion that a 5000 run on an indoor 306m track in 15:02 is not better than a 15:06 (say) run on an outdoor track is, to me, somewhat close to ludicrous. T&FN critria that such OT marks are acceptable for overall (usually outdoor) record status is eminently reasonable. I would like to hear an argument why that should not be the case other than 'it was indoors', which has essentially no underlying content about the real quality of the performance.

[ATK]

If a collegian is red-shirting, is it still a collegiate record? This is the situation that has some similarity to Cain's current status; it is not the same, however.

I don't think a red-shirting athlete should be able to get a record when they're not in college when we wouldn't think the same way of an athlete who declares pro after high school. if so, would allyson felix qualify? She was in college taking courses and the only thing different is she was getting paid legally for her services, something many collegiates have received under the table.

Felix lost her NCAA eligibility by going pro, and she wasn't taking a full-time load of classes 2 semesters a year. A redshirted athlete is still a full-time student with remaining NCAA eligibility.

I do understand that; however, suppose there was an athlete that went to college and didn't run for the school, but also didn't turn pro (let's make this person a 10k runner) and they ran faster than the collegiate record...would it be a collegiate record? And, how would this be different from the current Cain situation (she doesn't run for her team yet she is setting "high school"records).

That's basically exactly what I have been asking...

So what happens in a scenario where a college athlete leaves his college team for whatever reason, but does not go pro. they remain unattached and run as an open athlete, but still remain in school.
Would they be eligible for College records if they broke one?

[26mi235]

Go back to the narrower case of a student taking a 'red-shirt'. That is, they are on the team, they train with the team. They are not off competing on their own, they have full access to the team facilities etc., but they cannot travel with the team except for at their own expense.

For instance, from the Wisconsin website, there is this piece on Lihrman. This one is a little different in that he transferred from UW-Stout (a DIII school, not generally used for College Records, but I am not certain) and has not yet competed for Wisconsin; he has two years of indoor and outdoor eligibility remaining.

"Fellow thrower Michael Lihrman also had a noteworthy performance for the Badgers, breaking the facility record at The Shell with a heave of 70-10 3/4 to win the weight throw. The junior, competing unattached, would have easily topped UW’s school record if he were competing in a UW uniform.

Even so, the mark broke The Shell record of 70-9 set by Jon Pullum of Purdue in 2008 and ranks as the No. 7 performance by an American this season."

[ATK]

Go back to the narrower case of a student taking a 'red-shirt'. That is, they are on the team, they train with the team. They are not off competing on their own, they have full access to the team facilities etc., but they cannot travel with the team except for at their own expense...

Makes sense and is a good scenario. Which seems to be the whole gripe here. Since their records wouldn't count (I assume), why do Cains, and other HS athletes competing unattached?

I think the performance divide between HS and College may have some meaning. HS athletes are (generally) not seen as world class, but once college comes, you are basically competing with world class athletes. If a HS record is broken, it is usually compared with HS times (obviously depending on the record). If a college record is broken, Your automatically talking about Wolrd/olympic final or medal potential.
Just my thoughs

[26mi235]

I would say college-to-open is more like National Class. However, in the sprints that just about means World Class and that is where we see many of those that opt out of college early. It is interesting that in the US there are now a number of athletes for which this is not the sprints (or will not be): Jager, Ajee Wilson, Cain?, Rupp [who then went back into the school system]. These are in areas that can get sponsorship; the throws and many field events in general, there is not so much support.

[Marlow]

The HS scenario is more clear-cut. There are criteria for eligibility (can't turn 20 until Sept 1 after graduation) that allows someone like Mary to NOT compete for her team, but still allow T&FN to treat her as a HSer. An iffy case would be a home-schooled kid, who doesn't have the academic credentials (GPA>2.0) to verify her eligibility.
College is much more complex, with issues like limited enrollment, student-visa, never-went-out-for-the-team, etc..

[Conor Dary]

Gary, once your stop laughing, tell me why there are differing standards for listing records from one level to another in the same publication?

If you have been around the sport awhile, like decades, then it is pretty obvious. Years ago, especially in the 1970's the foreigners were a big deal. The UTEP and WSU guys, like Rono, taking all of the collegiate marks. So it made sense to have an American list. That has not been a problem in high school.

And to think the NCAA cares about TandFNews, is comical. In NCAAland, Track is equivalent to Pluto and TandFnews is a moon of Pluto, all revolving around the Sun, aka, Football.....

[no one]

If your referring to (f you have been around the sport awhile, like decades, then it is pretty obvious) regarding halharkness ... then he's 'been around' T&F for nearly 60 yrs - at just about all levels, if memory serves, and I am pretty sure it does. His thinking about this is not without some breadth of experience.

[Conor Dary]

If your referring to (f you have been around the sport awhile, like decades, then it is pretty obvious) regarding halharkness ... then he's 'been around' T&F for nearly 60 yrs - at just about all levels, if memory serves, and I am pretty sure it does. His thinking about this is not without some breadth of experience.

Then, as I said it should be obvious.

[halharkness]

Yes, I have been around for a while. Somehow my original point is lost or being ignored. Look in the Records section and check the Collegiate lists. Note there are two tables, the first contains marks made during the regular collegiate season up through the NCAA Meet. The second contains marks made outside the regular collegiate season.

I am not questioning nationality or any other condition other than consistency in criteria for having T&FN recognize and categorize records from on level to another. Mary Cain poses a particular problem if she chooses not to participate this spring for her school and run only in open meets against older, experienced competition. Where do you put her marks?

[CookyMonzta]

No restrictions. Period. Same with the NCAA. Same for any meet they might enter. If they're good enough to run with the big boys and girls, then any record they set should count.