restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]


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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby kuha » Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:11 am

ATK wrote:
polevaultpower wrote:Cain is a high school student, it's not like she has dropped out of school to train full time.

The NFHS does not recognize her records, so if it bothers you that T&FN does, just find the NFHS record list and ignore any discussion about her here.

Doesn't bother me. Just curious because it doesn't seem to make sense since there is no representation as with College.

So I was correct in saying that a random HS kid can enter any competition as an open athlete, run, and have his mark count towards HS stats, as long as they are academically enrolled in High school?


Sure, why not? If they are in High School, then they're eligible for High School Records. If we called them High School Team Records, it would be a different story.
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby ATK » Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:15 am

kuha wrote:
ATK wrote:
polevaultpower wrote:Cain is a high school student, it's not like she has dropped out of school to train full time.

The NFHS does not recognize her records, so if it bothers you that T&FN does, just find the NFHS record list and ignore any discussion about her here.

Doesn't bother me. Just curious because it doesn't seem to make sense since there is no representation as with College.

So I was correct in saying that a random HS kid can enter any competition as an open athlete, run, and have his mark count towards HS stats, as long as they are academically enrolled in High school?


Sure, why not? If they are in High School, then they're eligible for High School Records. If we called them High School Team Records, it would be a different story.

But once you get to college you better hop on the team or your competing against the world right?
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby az2004 » Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:20 am

this list fetish i dont care about

when kim gallaher set ythe 800 recrd of 2 flat she made one list, earlier in the year while running at the PA STATE MEET FOR UPPER DUBLIN, SHE was able to do the 4X800
and set a national record in it for the nfhs list

oddly, she had been injred and missed disatricts and could not enter any invividual events

only 4X4 and 4X8, winning both relays

800 and 1600 could not run because did not qualify from disctrict meet

whereas upper dublin team did so in the rlays and coulf add her, once she got healthy
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby batonless relay » Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:20 am

June 30...or any date after graduation is a wrong because the athlete is an "open" athlete. How is it different from a Texas high school football player who graduates early so that he can learn the playbook during what would be his senior year of high school final semester?

High school should be treated similar to the World Junior records: if you set a "record" at 19 but turn 20 during that year then it doesn't count as a WJR; if you set a "record" after graduation then you shouldn't receive credit for the record.
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby polevaultpower » Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:28 am

ATK wrote:So I was correct in saying that a random HS kid can enter any competition as an open athlete, run, and have his mark count towards HS stats, as long as they are academically enrolled in High school?


By T&FN guidelines, yes. As long as the meet is legitimate, which is certainly not an issue in Cain's case.
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby polevaultpower » Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:34 am

bad hammy wrote:The restrictions that the NFHS puts on HS records (basically the same rules Mr. Harkness is pushing) makes their HS record list a ridiculous joke. Jack Shepard and T&FN are doing just fine here - no significant changes required . . .


I agree.

A factor in T&FN's records being as they are is that many HS students do not face good competition during their school season. I understand being skeptical of August marks, but it can be hard to pick an exact cutoff date when there are international meets that run into August and rarely even September.

There's already a list of records that are only during the HS season and only for athletes representing their school. There's no sense in neutering the T&FN list to exclude summer meets, it would then be too similar to the NFHS list.
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby az2004 » Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:39 am

in pursuing the taylor williams hs or not hs, i've found some info

There should be only one source for information and that is Mr. Williams. He is person training Taylor....I know this because I was training her for a majority of last year and Mr. Williams decided he wanted to continue her training. They live a good distance from me and their schedule makes it easier for them to train locally.


thanks for the info

it seems that top talents seem to be bypassing the traditional hs routine

mary cain using alberto salazar and welsey frazier from nc skipping the usual route too

i don't know how easy it is to be unattached, and get quality comptetition though


You are right and here is the reason why. I know I am about to start something but sometimes the truth hurts.

1. Most high school programs are about team and not the individual (not a good recipe for Track and Field).
2. Many kids are stuck in programs that will not advance their/parents end game.
3. Elite athletes do not need high school to advance their career (If their high school program is sub-par then why go out for the team). Colleges could care less if an athlete ran for their high school. Performance is Performance and scholarships are not given for splits in a relay.

Here is the true test. If PIAA allowed unattached non-scoring athletes to compete in the state meet (individual events only) as long as they met the standards. How many top athletes would still compete for their high schools? Let me put it another way; what if PIAA proposed the Idea? How many high school coaches would protest?


Being unattached is easier than it seems and there are plenty of quality meets to go to. I even get a chance to compete with some of my athletes which is also fun for them as their mission is to embarrass me.
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby polevaultpower » Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:43 am

I believe NFHS rules would prohibit any state from allowing unattached athletes in their State Championships.
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby dj » Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:48 am

az2004 wrote:Here is the true test. If PIAA allowed unattached non-scoring athletes to compete in the state meet (individual events only) as long as they met the standards. How many top athletes would still compete for their high schools? Let me put it another way; what if PIAA proposed the Idea? How many high school coaches would protest?


The problem isn't whether one state would allow such a situation, it's whether all states would. I doubt you'd have unanimity either way.

Home-schooled athletes are allowed to compete for the local high school in some states, disallowed in others. Why the difference? The courts.

Some state courts have ruled that because parents pay local school taxes their home-schooled children may choose which public school services the may opt into.

Other state courts have ruled that athletics and other activities are extracurricular, and if you're not involved in the curriculum you can't be involved in the extracurriculars.
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby dj » Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:50 am

polevaultpower wrote:I believe NFHS rules would prohibit any state from allowing unattached athletes in their State Championships.


If a majority of state associations wanted to allow unattached athletes, the NFHS rules would be changed. Don't blame the NFHS for what the states might not want to do, it's the states that control eligibility issues.
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby polevaultpower » Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:54 am

Why would any HS coach want unattached athletes in their state meet? There are only so many lanes in the sprints, and taking away lanes from team athletes would affect the team scores, which is still important to a majority of HS coaches.
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby halharkness » Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:58 pm

We are getting lost regarding my original concern. Why should Track and Field News have a different set of standards for collegiate records than for high school records? It would seem they should be identical in criteria.

Just because Jack and Mike want to have their own criteria shouldn't matter. The marks are verified, accepted and published under the banner of Track and Field News Records. If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, it must be a duck. Now we have ducks and geese all looking like an identical animal under the guise of records. One size does fit all.
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby kuha » Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:06 pm

gh better duck or his goose will be cooked!
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby aaronk » Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:38 pm

Re GH's remarks earlier that schools are starting back in August now, with graduations in May.

So why not pull back that August 31st deadline to JULY 31st??

Aren't most of the post-season HS and JR meets in June and July??
So marks from those meets would still count as HS marks, and eligible for HSR's.
Only HS athletes who compete in August (Olympics, WC, DL meets) would be affected.
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby az2004 » Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:20 pm

polevaultpower wrote:Why would any HS coach want unattached athletes in their state meet? There are only so many lanes in the sprints, and taking away lanes from team athletes would affect the team scores, which is still important to a majority of HS coaches.



http://pa.milesplit.com/articles/100208 ... -procedure


filling the meet up is the key. lower the satdard"""

add unattached who have reached the standadr
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby az2004 » Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:59 pm

neeley spence was home schooled in pa and did xc

back to tayor williams, she is doing ther indoor meet this weekend

http://pa.milesplit.com/articles/100780 ... wenson-war

#2 seed at 60m

#1 seed at 200m

her presence can deterimine girls team champ as swenson and cheltenham will go down to the wire, and what taylor williams score will affect both teams
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby aaronk » Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:43 pm

What about home-schooled students?
Aren't they actually registered with their local HS....but don't attend classes there?
They graduate with their school, and can participate in that school's extra-curricular activities, including sports.

So while Cain DOES attend classes at Bronxville (and has a 4.0 GPA!!), she could be considered, as an athlete, like a home-schooled student!!

(I'm NOT really familiar with the rules concerning home-schooled students, so I could be entirely wrong here!!)
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby dj » Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:51 pm

aaronk: go back about 8 messages to find an answer about home-schoolers.
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby gh » Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:44 pm

halharkness wrote:We are getting lost regarding my original concern. Why should Track and Field News have a different set of standards for collegiate records than for high school records? It would seem they should be identical in criteria.

Just because Jack and Mike want to have their own criteria shouldn't matter. The marks are verified, accepted and published under the banner of Track and Field News Records. If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, it must be a duck. Now we have ducks and geese all looking like an identical animal under the guise of records. One size does fit all.


There are two massive differences between preps and collegians that need to be taken into consideration.

1. After the NCAA meet, there is no more collegiate competition. Everything (relatively speaking) is against the pros. After your state meet there are all-star meets for preps. After the all-star meets there is the USATF Junior (which includes some collegians). After the Juniors there's a month of Junior Olympics, all involving high schoolers. So if you want to stay with the "same standards," then it can be argued that the HS season lasts at least until the JOs are over.

2.It's easy for those who live in warm weather states to forget (or not even realize) how much different it is in much of the country, where the good-weather season may not last more than a month. And no, it's not the same for collegians, because they have travel budgets that invariably take the whole team to warmer climes. California, Texas, Florida may start outdoor track in February and have a full season in place come May, but for other states, their season is only just starting up. Having the next few months in which to be able to do the sport properly equals the playing field a long way.

So there are very solid arguments for a longer season, and for not matching the collegiate system. There are some places where a one-size-fits-all philosophy just doesn't work.

I would note that as of several years back that while T&FN puts summer marks on lists and considers the marks for record purposes, that any such meets no longer carry any special weight in the All-America ratings. For those purposes, the season ends with the USATF Juniors.
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Re: Duel at the Armory: Hasay vs Cain

Postby Samurai_Runner » Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:07 am

halharkness wrote:... because she no longer represents her school and does not compete in high school only competition. ...

These "rules" are the same for T&FN's collegiate records. Looking at the list of "Men's Outdoor Collegiate Records", Chelanga's 10k record was set in a pro race @ Stanford. Since it was not a meet in which his school was entered, he did not technically represent his college. So, other than the extended season, there is no difference in the "rules" applied to collegiate & HS records.
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby wamego relays champ » Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:15 am

halharkness wrote:We are getting lost regarding my original concern. Why should Track and Field News have a different set of standards for collegiate records than for high school records? It would seem they should be identical in criteria.


Agreed, I think the original point was less concerned with extended season marks and more concerned with whether the athlete competes for their school or in high-school only competitions.The inconsistency that was pointed out was that when a collegian forfeits their NCAA eligibility (usually by going pro) their performances are no longer considered as collegiate marks by T&FN, while the same rule is not applied to a high school competitor who stops competing for their school.

I think the difference is that unless a prep star turns pro they really are not forfeiting their eligibility to go back and compete for their school or in high school only competitions. If an athlete like Cain stops competing for their school after their sophomore year so they can focus on elite competition or national team qualifying they can still decide to compete in the elite HS only competitions, so they should not be disqualified from HS record recognition just because a mark was set in an open competition during the season.

As others have suggested, if one wishes to apply the stricter eligibility of the NFHS records, they are free to consult those records (or refer to T&FN's HS-only competitions addenda).

My memory may be fading, but I seem to recall Shepard applying a form of the team participation rule in the past, but to an athlete who never competed at all (in any year) for his school and never competed in HS only events. Billy Konchellah ran faster than the HS record for the 800 while attending HS in southern California, but since he never competed for his school it was not recognized as the HSR.
.
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby aaronk » Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:48 am

I think Cain is doing her teammates (former teammates??) at Bronxville HS a favor by NOT competing for them, or training with them!!

With all due respect to the efforts of the other Bronxville team members, and to their coaches' abilities, I can't imagine a more NEGATIVE situation than for the Mary Cain of 2:03.34, 4:11.01, 4:28.25, 9:04.51, and 9:38.68 abilities to be "competing" with and against other girls who can't break 2:15 or 5:00, or 10:40!!

Who would gain anything??
And what would be lost??

Mary wouldn't gain anything, except the egotistical savoring of win after win after win after win!!!!!
And to win against people you KNOW you could beat, even if you ran BACKWARDS.....what good does it do you??

And what harm would it do....psychologically and morally speaking......to those kids......also just 16 and 17 years old.......who would ALWAYS be LOSING to Mary.....no matter how relatively talented they were??

I don't see ANY upside to that scenario, whatever way you twist the picture!!

Cain is at a point where she NEEDS to compete against America's.....and the WORLD'S!!!!......elite!!
She went up against friggin' Tirunish Dibaba, for God's sake!!!!!
And she was NOT lapped on a 200 meter track!!
Far from it!!

How could she possibly benefit from competing against people who Dibaba would've lapped (indoors) maybe two or three times???

Same goes for those Bronxville kids!!
THEY need to savor the wonders of victory, and the agonies of defeat.....but against kids who, by their abilities and foot speed, could be considered TRUE peers!!

Toward everyone's benefit, let things stand as they are!!
And let's hope Mary, by the time she leaves HS in 2014, will own EVERY SINGLE HSR, both indoors and outdoors, between 800 and 10,000!!!

And then, maybe 5 or 10 (or 40???) years down the road, we'll delight in watching "the next Mary Cain" come forth and destroy CAIN'S records!!!!
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby az2004 » Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:34 am

bronxville was 3rd in th 4X800, and if cain had run for bronxville, and they dropped their worst leg, they would have won the 4X800 and set the meet reord

http://branchsportstech.com/2013_Meets/ ... lts9-1.htm


drop 3rd leg 2:19

have cain run 2:06 gives bronxville a sub 9 breaking millrose rrecod of garden city from last year

the boys and girls 8:53 is armory record of 2002, different meet
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby polevaultpower » Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:17 am

aaronk wrote:Re GH's remarks earlier that schools are starting back in August now, with graduations in May.

So why not pull back that August 31st deadline to JULY 31st??

Aren't most of the post-season HS and JR meets in June and July??
So marks from those meets would still count as HS marks, and eligible for HSR's.
Only HS athletes who compete in August (Olympics, WC, DL meets) would be affected.


AAU JO's is often the first weekend of August. And for Pete's sake, if a HS athlete was good enough to qualify for Worlds or the Olympics why would you want to not include any marks set there?

What would be reasonable is to say that after mid-July or so, only marks from approved Championship meets can count for records.
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby PDJ551 » Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:18 am

This whole controversy about high school records set in open meets is new. I don't remember anyone making a big deal of this when Ryun or Lindgren were lighting up the track in open competition. The National Federation has their marks which concern performances at state meets but the real fans of the sport pay little attention to that.

a few years ago at the Pennsylvania State Meet the announcer was making a big deal of how the time that a team just had recorded in the 4x8 was the best time in the nation. Anyone who had been at the Penn Relays weeks before knew that that information wasn't factual. However, the majority of the fans in the stands were mislead.

If people want to consult only the National Federation lists that's fine, but I would rather consult Track & Field News.
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby Marlow » Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:58 am

PDJ551 wrote:a few years ago at the Pennsylvania State Meet the announcer was making a big deal of how the time that a team just had recorded in the 4x8 was the best time in the nation. Anyone who had been at the Penn Relays weeks before knew that that information wasn't factual. However, the majority of the fans in the stands were mislead.

This sort of thing happens ALLLLL the time. People talk about Florida HS records and aren't even close to knowing what they actually are. PA announcers at meets here seem to be the MOST MISinformed people at the meet! :shock:
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby ATK » Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:20 am

wamego relays champ wrote:
halharkness wrote:We are getting lost regarding my original concern. Why should Track and Field News have a different set of standards for collegiate records than for high school records? It would seem they should be identical in criteria.


Agreed, I think the original point was less concerned with extended season marks and more concerned with whether the athlete competes for their school or in high-school only competitions.The inconsistency that was pointed out was that when a collegian forfeits their NCAA eligibility (usually by going pro) their performances are no longer considered as collegiate marks by T&FN, while the same rule is not applied to a high school competitor who stops competing for their school.

I think the difference is that unless a prep star turns pro they really are not forfeiting their eligibility to go back and compete for their school or in high school only competitions. If an athlete like Cain stops competing for their school after their sophomore year so they can focus on elite competition or national team qualifying they can still decide to compete in the elite HS only competitions, so they should not be disqualified from HS record recognition just because a mark was set in an open competition during the season.

As others have suggested, if one wishes to apply the stricter eligibility of the NFHS records, they are free to consult those records (or refer to T&FN's HS-only competitions addenda).

My memory may be fading, but I seem to recall Shepard applying a form of the team participation rule in the past, but to an athlete who never competed at all (in any year) for his school and never competed in HS only events. Billy Konchellah ran faster than the HS record for the 800 while attending HS in southern California, but since he never competed for his school it was not recognized as the HSR.
.

So what happens in a scenario where a college athlete leaves his college team for whatever reason, but does not go pro. they remain unattached and run as an open athlete, but still remain in school.
Would they be eligible for College records if they broke one?
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby az2004 » Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:47 am

PDJ551 wrote:This whole controversy about high school records set in open meets is new. I don't remember anyone making a big deal of this when Ryun or Lindgren were lighting up the track in open competition. The National Federation has their marks which concern performances at state meets but the real fans of the sport pay little attention to that.

a few years ago at the Pennsylvania State Meet the announcer was making a big deal of how the time that a team just had recorded in the 4x8 was the best time in the nation. Anyone who had been at the Penn Relays weeks before knew that that information wasn't factual. However, the majority of the fans in the stands were mislead.

If people want to consult only the National Federation lists that's fine, but I would rather consult Track & Field News.



was this the 2009 race at penn relays you were talking about

http://www.runnerspace.com/video.php?do ... o_id=11681
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby kuha » Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:07 am

PDJ551 wrote:This whole controversy about high school records set in open meets is new. I don't remember anyone making a big deal of this when Ryun or Lindgren were lighting up the track in open competition. The National Federation has their marks which concern performances at state meets but the real fans of the sport pay little attention to that.


It's true that in the Ryun/Lindgren days, very few were talking about HS records since they were pretty much the least significant aspects of the achievements in question, which included winning national titles, setting national records, challenging and/or beating the standing WR holders, etc. Since figures like Elliott and even Bruce Kidd were still on everyone's mind, it was not seen as extremely unusual that teenagers could be among the very best in the world. It is that basic assumption or frame of reference that has changed very significantly (to be precise here-changed for young US athletes) over the years.
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby az2004 » Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:09 am

albemarle ran 7:30 AT PENN RELAYAS

CALLED NATIONAL RECORD

1 Albemarle (Charlottesville, VA) 7:30.67 Garrett Bradley (1:55.43), Zach Vrhovac (1:50.57), Luke Noble (1:55.34), Anthony Kostelac (1:49.33) B 2 Morris Hills (Rockaway, NJ) 7:31.60 Vincent Chiusano (1:55.22), Lucas Clybe (1:52.17), Sean Pohorence (1:53.56), Liam Tansey (1:50.65) A 3 Central Bucks South (Warrington, PA) 7:36.93



CENTRAL BUCKS SOUTH DID 7:36

AT pa STATE MEET

4x800 7:33.48
Central Bucks South
May 23, 2009
PIAA T&F State Championships
Shippensburg University


THOUGHT THIS WAS THE STATE MEET RESULT CALLED NATIONAL RECORD


WHILE ALBEAMRLE 7:30 BEAT CENTRl bucks south 7:36 at penn relays
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby Fortius19 » Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:09 am

And on a sorta-related note, why are there no AmHS records, like there are AmC records kept seperately from the overall college records?

I understand AmC to represent American born Collegian. Correct?

I realize that foriegners occupy American T&F College teams much more often than American T&F HS teams, but now we have the case of Chelenga.

If HS records represent American HS records and Sam was born in Kenya but now runs for an American HS, I don't think he should have an (American) HS record.

Or, at the very least, have HS and AmHS records like for college athletes.
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby batonless relay » Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:17 am

Fortius19 wrote:And on a sorta-related note, why are there no AmHS records, like there are AmC records kept seperately from the overall college records?

I understand AmC to represent American born Collegian. Correct?

I realize that foriegners occupy American T&F College teams much more often than American T&F HS teams, but now we have the case of Chelenga.

If HS records represent American HS records and Sam was born in Kenya but now runs for an American HS, I don't think he should have an (American) HS record.

Or, at the very least, have HS and AmHS records like for college athletes.

Being born outside of the United States has nothing to do with high school records, only NATIONAL records (national being american junior records or age group). HS records, to my knowledge (or as far back as I know), have never been restricted to only American born athletes or athletes with American citizenship. Chelenga is deserving of the record.
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby Marlow » Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:57 am

batonless relay wrote:Being born outside of the United States has nothing to do with high school records, only NATIONAL records (national being american junior records or age group). HS records, to my knowledge (or as far back as I know), have never been restricted to only American born athletes or athletes with American citizenship. Chelenga is deserving of the record.

That's not the question. The question is: if "American-citizen" College records are kept, why aren't "American-citizen" HS records kept? The answer lies in who is keeping such records. There are no 'official' citizen college records, but T&FN keeps tabs on them anyway. No one has bothered to do that for HS, though I imagine that T&FN would indeed make that distinction if the situation arose. It hasn't come up as often as the collegiate issue has (often!). Note that the current bPV HSR is held by a dual citizenship boy (who has opted to represent Canada in Jr comp).
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby polevaultpower » Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:35 am

Marlow wrote:
batonless relay wrote:Being born outside of the United States has nothing to do with high school records, only NATIONAL records (national being american junior records or age group). HS records, to my knowledge (or as far back as I know), have never been restricted to only American born athletes or athletes with American citizenship. Chelenga is deserving of the record.

That's not the question. The question is: if "American-citizen" College records are kept, why aren't "American-citizen" HS records kept? The answer lies in who is keeping such records. There are no 'official' citizen college records, but T&FN keeps tabs on them anyway. No one has bothered to do that for HS, though I imagine that T&FN would indeed make that distinction if the situation arose. It hasn't come up as often as the collegiate issue has (often!). Note that the current bPV HSR is held by a dual citizenship boy (who has opted to represent Canada in Jr comp).


A few years ago, German exchange student Nico Weiler was taking shots at the BPV record, and T&FN said they would accept his mark if he broke it.
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby Marlow » Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:41 am

polevaultpower wrote:German exchange student Nico Weiler

That's one long 'exchange' - he's still here (now Harvard). Had a fun conversation with him at the NCAA East Region meet. I was the guy at the top of the runway (next to the athletes) that communicated their standards placements to the pit crew. Very happy, gregarious kid.
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby batonless relay » Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:08 am

Marlow wrote:
batonless relay wrote:Being born outside of the United States has nothing to do with high school records, only NATIONAL records (national being american junior records or age group). HS records, to my knowledge (or as far back as I know), have never been restricted to only American born athletes or athletes with American citizenship. Chelenga is deserving of the record.

That's not the question. The question is: if "American-citizen" College records are kept, why aren't "American-citizen" HS records kept? The answer lies in who is keeping such records. There are no 'official' citizen college records, but T&FN keeps tabs on them anyway. No one has bothered to do that for HS, though I imagine that T&FN would indeed make that distinction if the situation arose. It hasn't come up as often as the collegiate issue has (often!). Note that the current bPV HSR is held by a dual citizenship boy (who has opted to represent Canada in Jr comp).

that isn't correct. historically, T&FN has included HS athletes who are not citizens of the USA as quasi-americans UNTIL they declared their intentions to compete for another country (Verzbicas?); making all lists, etc. It makes sense for T&FN to keep tabs for college because in most (nearly all) cases, these are temporary residents as opposed to naturalized citizens or green-card holders. Many team Jamaica athletes not born in the USA spent some time at high school in the USA (Cuthbert, Dwight Thomas, Jerome Young, to name a few; not sure about Patrina Allen) and would have been eligible, rightly in my opinion, had they broken records.
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby Grasshopper » Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:24 am

Just to be clear, and for some added differences between the TnFN standards for HS and Collegiate records, the collegiate records should actually be called the NCAA D-1 records, as they don't/won't include performances from athletes in any other division.
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby polevaultpower » Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:40 am

batonless relay wrote:that isn't correct. historically, T&FN has included HS athletes who are not citizens of the USA as quasi-americans UNTIL they declared their intentions to compete for another country (Verzbicas?); making all lists, etc.


They accepted Barber's PV mark last summer, after he represented Canada at World Juniors.

I don't have a problem with that in his case, he was born and raised in America and set the record at a legit meet.
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby Marlow » Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:04 pm

batonless relay wrote:historically, T&FN has included HS athletes who are not citizens of the USA as quasi-americans UNTIL they declared their intentions to compete for another country (Verzbicas?)

??!!
They've always added the ' mark after a non-citizen's name, but otherwise treated them as equals, 'declared' or not.
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:53 pm

If a collegian is red-shirting, is it still a collegiate record? This is the situation that has some similarity to Cain's current status; it is not the same, however.
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