restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]


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Re: Duel at the Armory: Hasay vs Cain

Postby halharkness » Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:40 pm

Now that we are going to spend the next 16 months talking about Mary Cain and high school records, let's apply the same criteria to high school records and Track and Field News applies to collegiate.

Taking nothing away from Mary as she is an incredible talent, she is no longer able to set high school records (using the same rules that are in effect for collegiate rules) because she no longer represents her school and does not compete in high school only competition. She should be credited with junior and age group records, but not high school. Notice in the collegiate records listings, there is a separate section for marks made in non-collegiate meets.

There should be identical criteria for both groups, collegiate and high school. Why not?
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Re: Duel at the Armory: Hasay vs Cain

Postby aaronk » Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:33 pm

halharkness wrote:Now that we are going to spend the next 16 months talking about Mary Cain and high school records, let's apply the same criteria to high school records and Track and Field News applies to collegiate.

Taking nothing away from Mary as she is an incredible talent, she is no longer able to set high school records (using the same rules that are in effect for collegiate rules) because she no longer represents her school and does not compete in high school only competition. She should be credited with junior and age group records, but not high school. Notice in the collegiate records listings, there is a separate section for marks made in non-collegiate meets.

There should be identical criteria for both groups, collegiate and high school. Why not?


Are you saying T&FN and whatever agencies rule over HSR's should change the entire high school record book??

Because if you do it for (or against!!) Cain, you'd have to go back and do it for EVERYONE!!!
Here's a PARTIAL list of the HSR's that would have to be moved to the new list for marks made in NON-HS meets:

Jim Ryun........3:59.0 (1964 Compton Invitational)
Jim Ryun........3:55.3 (1965 AAU Championships)
Alan Webb......3:38.26 and 3:53.43 (2001 Prefontaine Classic)
Gerry Lindgren..8:06.4 and 8:40.0 (1964 LA Indoor Meet)
Gerry Lindgren...13:44.0 (1964 Compton Invitational)
Allyson Felix.......22.11 (Mexico City in 2003)
Lynn Bjorklund....9:08.6 (Kiev, Soviet Union, 1975)

And on and on and.....on!!!!!

For whatever reason, the different "rule" for HSR's should be maintained!
(But get rid of those damn 1600's and 3200's!!!)

P.S. As an afterthought, why is it that T&FN print edition has eliminated EVERY list.....except for the Annual Issue's Top 40 of the year......and some monthly HS lists??
I mean, if you're getting rid of the lists because they're so out of date by the time we get the issue, then why retain the HS lists.....sometimes in EVERY monthly issue??

And if you're going to have monthly HS lists.....then bring back the World/USA/Collegiate lists too!! (You could combine them.....Top 10 or 15 World, with additional Americans bringing total to 15 or 20. And either have a separate Collegiate list, or add it to the World/USA list s an appendage.)
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restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby noone » Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:39 pm

I will repeat what i said a few months ago: Cain is a fine young runner, but at the 1972 Olympics the late Glenda Reiser, 16, ran a 4:06 1500 with much less fanfare.

Oh I get it, she wasn't American.
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Re: Duel at the Armory: Hasay vs Cain

Postby aaronk » Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:52 pm

noone wrote:I will repeat what i said a few months ago: Cain is a fine young runner, but at the 1972 Olympics the late Glenda Reiser, 16, ran a 4:06 1500 with much less fanfare.

Oh I get it, she wasn't American.


Two things have changed drastically since 1972:

1. Track and Field News didn't start covering women in depth until 1979!!

2. The Internet!!

If Reiser had run her 4:06 in 2013, you can bet she would be getting LOTS more coverage than she did 41 years ago!!
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Re: Duel at the Armory: Hasay vs Cain

Postby 18.99s » Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:21 pm

noone wrote:I will repeat what i said a few months ago: Cain is a fine young runner, but at the 1972 Olympics the late Glenda Reiser, 16, ran a 4:06 1500 with much less fanfare.

Oh I get it, she wasn't American.


And she was 17, not 16.
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Re: Duel at the Armory: Hasay vs Cain

Postby halharkness » Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:54 pm

That is exactly what I mean, use the same standards for High School Records as are used for Collegiate Records. Why are they different, I suspect the NCAA had something to do with that many years ago.

High School Records should be set by athletes representing their schools in high school competition, not by individuals not representing a school or in open level meets. No comparison and it raises the bar incredibly high.

These should be listed as age, junior or high school bests, not records.

Jack Shepard and Mike Kennedy are long time personal friends, they are not to blame.
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Re: Duel at the Armory: Hasay vs Cain

Postby Marlow » Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:05 pm

halharkness wrote:High School Records should be set by athletes representing their schools in high school competition, not by individuals not representing a school or in open level meets. No comparison and it raises the bar incredibly high.

Feel free to start your OWN record book. I'm just fine with things as they are.
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Re: Duel at the Armory: Hasay vs Cain

Postby halharkness » Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:34 pm

You may be fine with status quo, it is a real disservice to kids. Gives the athletes talented or lucky enough to get into open competition an opportunity to be pulled along to marks that could never be achieved in high school only competition.
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Re: Duel at the Armory: Hasay vs Cain

Postby Marlow » Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:39 pm

halharkness wrote:Gives the athletes talented or lucky enough to get into open competition an opportunity to be pulled along to marks that could never be achieved in high school only competition.

Yeah, I hate it too when talent gets rewarded.
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Re: Duel at the Armory: Hasay vs Cain

Postby rsb2 » Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:53 pm

Records are fine, but obsessions are not. Anybody still in High School (Grade 12 is a North American Standard - yes?), and under a certain age should be able to qualify for a HS Record, as I see it. Incredibly talented young athletes will, of course, be able to access high levels of competition and run very fast, as it should be. Down the road(track), their records will be broken under similar conditions by some equally, or more, blessed. As a Canadian, it is still almost unbelievable that 17 year old Glenda Reiser ran 4:06 in the Olympic semifinals almost 41 years ago, and never ran faster. Stuff happens.
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Re: Duel at the Armory: Hasay vs Cain

Postby gh » Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:56 pm

halharkness wrote:That is exactly what I mean, use the same standards for High School Records as are used for Collegiate Records. Why are they different, I suspect the NCAA had something to do with that many years ago.

High School Records should be set by athletes representing their schools in high school competition, not by individuals not representing a school or in open level meets. No comparison and it raises the bar incredibly high.

These should be listed as age, junior or high school bests, not records.

Jack Shepard and Mike Kennedy are long time personal friends, they are not to blame.


If it were up to me, the HS Records would have the same restriction as our Collegiate Records do, which is end in June. Our HS Editors, however, are dead set against any such rule, so when we made the decision to truncate the college season the prep side did not follow.

I disagree about levels of meets though. So long as it's "in-season," anything goes as far as I'm concerned.

You'll note from our records section, though, that we do keep a separate listing of marks made in HS-only competition.
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby az2004 » Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:46 am

noone wrote:I will repeat what i said a few months ago: Cain is a fine young runner, but at the 1972 Olympics the late Glenda Reiser, 16, ran a 4:06 1500 with much less fanfare.

Oh I get it, she wasn't American.



could you tell us about reiser, 1972 i was in hs and info on her was limited
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby aaronk » Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:42 am

halharkness wrote:You may be fine with status quo, it is a real disservice to kids. Gives the athletes talented or lucky enough to get into open competition an opportunity to be pulled along to marks that could never be achieved in high school only competition.


So I suppose a "gifted" student who is allowed (or pushed?) into "advanced" classes....some even taking collegiate courses while still in high school....or are otherwise given opportunities the "average" student isn't......should be punished by not allowing them to receive credit for those courses....and thereby forcing them to have to graduate with all those "dumb asses" below them!!!

Yeah, let's keep the Mary Cain's of this world in "high school only" races!!

Here's the results of a hypothetical high school only meet:

2 mile:
1. Cain, Mary...................9:38.68
2. Jane, Plain...................10:55.02

One hour later....
800:
1. Cain, Mary..................2:03.34
2. Girl, Slow...................2:23.19

30 minutes later:
1 mile:
1. Cain, Mary.................4:28.25
2. Surrender, I................5:03.46

Headline in next days sports section:

3 Girls Quit Team: "We'll never be able to win!"
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby az2004 » Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:54 am

looing up reiser, she ran her 4:06 in yhe same heat bragina set a wr

larriey ran 4:11 next heat..

ftrying to find a video od the 4:06 to see the kid in action

just talked to a friend in canada about her

She was cursed with bad skin and the nickname Glenda Greaser-people can be so cruel. Got to think that might have been the world junior record at the time. Canadian record is 4:00.27 by Lynn Williams.
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby polevaultpower » Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:59 am

There are two sets of HS records: The T&FN set and the NFHS set. It sounds like the OP should just go by the NFHS records. They do not recognize anything Mary Cain does. There's no need for T&FN to be more restrictive when there's already another group maintaining a stricter set of records.
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby az2004 » Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:04 am

a few years back i saw this when chanelle price ran a fast time, and said it was a record, not the kim gallagher 2 flat at the olympis festival
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby kuha » Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:35 am

As others have noted, there are already multiple sets of books here, so it's a non-issue.
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby aaronk » Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:45 am

kuha wrote:As others have noted, there are already multiple sets of books here, so it's a non-issue.


And that's why people who "find" track and field.....walk away from it and return to soccer or football or golf or baseball!!

Isn't track and field supposed to be the SIMPLEST of sports to understand??

The fastest, highest, furthest is the BEST.......period!!

But, no, there's wind-aided times, altitude-adjusted marks, OG and WC "A" and "B" standards, athletes who finish 2nd do NOT make the team while 7th place finishers DO, downhill marathon courses, false start disqualifications, oversize indoor tracks, non-banked indoor tracks, high school only races and meets, American Collegiate records and Collegiate records, mixed race marks, USATF-sanctioned events with "official" USATF timers and judges, wind tunnels for discus throwers......and restrictions on what an athlete MUST wear!!
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby kuha » Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:51 am

aaronk wrote:
kuha wrote:As others have noted, there are already multiple sets of books here, so it's a non-issue.


And that's why people who "find" track and field.....walk away from it and return to soccer or football or golf or baseball!!

Isn't track and field supposed to be the SIMPLEST of sports to understand??

The fastest, highest, furthest is the BEST.......period!!

But, no, there's wind-aided times, altitude-adjusted marks, OG and WC "A" and "B" standards, athletes who finish 2nd do NOT make the team while 7th place finishers DO, downhill marathon courses, false start disqualifications, oversize indoor tracks, non-banked indoor tracks, high school only races and meets, American Collegiate records and Collegiate records, mixed race marks, USATF-sanctioned events with "official" USATF timers and judges, wind tunnels for discus throwers......and restrictions on what an athlete MUST wear!!


It's called "reality." Once you have your mind right, it's a perfectly okay place to be.
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby Marlow » Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:57 am

kuha wrote:
aaronk wrote:And that's why people who "find" track and field.....walk away from it and return to soccer or football or golf or baseball!!!

It's called "reality." Once you have your mind right, it's a perfectly okay place to be.

Exactly right. I find the 'records' issue to be a complete 'non-issue', and it is, of course, not a reason why anyone does not find track appealing (same as the red herring as the move to metric races).
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby az2004 » Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:06 am

with more record books, doesn't that mean more records to break
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby aaronk » Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:13 am

az2004 wrote:with more record books, doesn't that mean more records to break


Can't remember where I saw it....MAYBE in the pages of T&FN??....but I recall when Ron Clarke ran a track WR (or world best?) for 10 miles in 47:12.

It was said he'd broken records at:

7 miles
7 and one-fourth miles
7 and one-half miles
7 and three-quarter miles
8 miles
and on and on and on through to....
9 and three-quarter miles!!

ALL his enroute quarter mile splits were listed as "records" at each distance!! :shock: :roll:
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby halharkness » Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:20 am

Respectively, you are missing the point. Track and Field News should not have different standards for Collegiate records than for High School Records. Records are records and why the difference in only listing marks that were made in college/university competition? Note the box below the main record listings shows those made in non-college (open) meets.

Why not do the same for High School, list the NFHS records (high school only competition) and have a separate list for those marks made in higher level competition? Gives a much better perspective to the reader.
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby az2004 » Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:28 am

MY canaian friedn on reisner

Reiser would remind you of an American, but I can't remember who right now. Very long legs and metronome stride, not explosive speed but capable of running fast smoothly, not a choppy stride. She must have been hurt because she didn't even make the team in 1976. Pretty amazing talent, that's still an excellent time for a junior, still 7th fastest ever.

and here is her 1aaf profile

http://www.iaaf.org/athletes/canada/glenda-reiser
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby Marlow » Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:34 am

halharkness wrote:Track and Field News should not have different standards for Collegiate records than for High School Records.

Why not? There's a perfect logic behind it.

College seasons end at the NCAAs, because after that their eligibility expires, and they are immediately 'open athletes'.

The high school season shouldn't end until Aug 31, because they are not yet training with their college team, so there is no 'taint' to the record. Post-season HS Invitationals and Jr. Olympics (well after the graduation ceremony) are part of a HS senior's last HS season, so records there SHOULD count.
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby kuha » Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:47 am

aaronk wrote:
az2004 wrote:with more record books, doesn't that mean more records to break


Can't remember where I saw it....MAYBE in the pages of T&FN??....but I recall when Ron Clarke ran a track WR (or world best?) for 10 miles in 47:12.

It was said he'd broken records at:

7 miles
7 and one-fourth miles
7 and one-half miles
7 and three-quarter miles
8 miles
and on and on and on through to....
9 and three-quarter miles!!

ALL his enroute quarter mile splits were listed as "records" at each distance!! :shock: :roll:


What point are you attempting to make? This was nearly half a century ago. You might be interested in knowing that all these fractional "best on records" were kept beginning ca. the late 1870s and that practice continued for many decades, more unofficially than officially, of course. And why should this be perceived as nutty? If one is keeping accurate splits, why not measure them against the best-on-record-to-date?

Needless to say, no one does this anymore. We all know what the WR is for the 5 and 10; how many remember the best 4000 or 9000 splits, never mind the clockings at every lap? All that stuff is kept, of course, its just that our withered little brains don't have room for the information.
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby gh » Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:53 am

Marlow wrote:
halharkness wrote:Track and Field News should not have different standards for Collegiate records than for High School Records.

Why not? There's a perfect logic behind it.

College seasons end at the NCAAs, because after that their eligibility expires, and they are immediately 'open athletes'.

The high school season shouldn't end until Aug 31, because they are not yet training with their college team, so there is no 'taint' to the record. Post-season HS Invitationals and Jr. Olympics (well after the graduation ceremony) are part of a HS senior's last HS season, so records there SHOULD count.


The August 31 dating is a flawed model from another era when schools "everywhere" cranked backup after Labor Day. Far as I know, the whole school year has been skewed backwards in many/most states, with classes starting in August, sometimes early August. And HS graduations in places are in early May. Should somebody really be getting credit for a "high school" mark made 4+ months after their graduation? Or if they're already in college?

This last question isn't fanciful; it has happened. A few years back I had to have the HS Editors pull some marks from the top of the list because the athlete in question was indeed already at university, in classes for the fall semester (not summer school), and the meet in question (in August) was a meet on the school's campus.
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby polevaultpower » Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:17 am

gh wrote:This last question isn't fanciful; it has happened. A few years back I had to have the HS Editors pull some marks from the top of the list because the athlete in question was indeed already at university, in classes for the fall semester (not summer school), and the meet in question (in August) was a meet on the school's campus.


That's still an extremely rare scenario in which a college would be hosting a track meet in August.

In August, unless you have a kid with some international meet still on their schedule, most college coaches want their kids getting into their fall base training, not chasing after marks. I think August marks should be taken on a case by case basis, but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater, there's not some widespread epidemic of college coaches trying to squeeze a HSR out of their incoming freshmen.
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby az2004 » Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:24 am

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/new ... 856d7b669b

in reading info on reiser and cain

reiser was a swimmer who turned to track

same with cain who was a swimmer turned tack

here's a couple photos of reiser

looks to be a big girl

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=gle ... tedIndex=1
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby Marlow » Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:30 am

polevaultpower wrote:
gh wrote:This last question isn't fanciful; it has happened. A few years back I had to have the HS Editors pull some marks from the top of the list because the athlete in question was indeed already at university, in classes for the fall semester (not summer school), and the meet in question (in August) was a meet on the school's campus.

That's still an extremely rare scenario in which a college would be hosting a track meet in August.

Indeed. That's a very rare circumstance, and should have been excised. Few other examples exist. If a student is indeed already on a college campus, benefiting from that environment, then it should not be included, but that is sooooo rare.

We recently discussed Casey Carrigan's case, which explains why he couldn't be given a Junior class record even though he was actually extending his junior season into October of his senior year!
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby ATK » Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:26 am

Is there any criteria for records in terms of representing your school? Do you actually have to be part of the schools track team? Did you have to compete for a certain amount of meets or time? Do you just have to be enrolled in school?

I just think Cain breaking these HS records but not even running for her school doesn't really make sense. Makes it seem as if any random HS kid can enter any random open meet and break a HS record.
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:35 am

ATK wrote:Is there any criteria for records in terms of representing your school? Do you actually have to be part of the schools track team? Did you have to compete for a certain amount of meets or time? Do you just have to be enrolled in school?

I just think Cain breaking these HS records but not even running for her school doesn't really make sense. Makes it seem as if any random HS kid can enter any random open meet and break a HS record.


An interesting point. A HS kid not running for her high school at all does seem a bit odd. Even odder to call them school records. But not unprecedented. Tom Sullivan back in 1961, when he ran the HS record 4:03.5 didn't compete for his high school much and not at all in the Illinois State meet or anything sanctioned by the IHSA. The reason was so he could compete in open races, such as the Compton Relays where he set the record.
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby az2004 » Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:38 am

http://pa.milesplit.com/videos?id=33518

perfect example here taylor william top times i PA in 60m and 200m

1st in heat 2nd in finals

http://pa.milesplit.com/videos?id=33519

college girls in final

coached professionally because dad wants a better coach thn avaiable at her hs


here's her 200m

and her 60m

http://ny.milesplit.com/meets/131862/videos/?id=32652 withe 3 girls from st jhns in the race

taylor williams goes to a suburban hs, her dad wanted good coaching, not available at the school he attends

http://pa.milesplit.com/videos?id=33520

is running for high speed track


she's in 11the grade, her dad is filiminf this 200 from nyu

http://ny.milesplit.com/meets/131862/videos?id=32669
Last edited by az2004 on Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:11 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby gh » Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:46 am

polevaultpower wrote:
gh wrote:This last question isn't fanciful; it has happened. A few years back I had to have the HS Editors pull some marks from the top of the list because the athlete in question was indeed already at university, in classes for the fall semester (not summer school), and the meet in question (in August) was a meet on the school's campus.


That's still an extremely rare scenario in which a college would be hosting a track meet in August.

In August, unless you have a kid with some international meet still on their schedule, most college coaches want their kids getting into their fall base training, not chasing after marks. I think August marks should be taken on a case by case basis, but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater, there's not some widespread epidemic of college coaches trying to squeeze a HSR out of their incoming freshmen.


rare or not, nobody (IMHO) should be getting credit for a HS Record as much 4+ months after they've actually graduated!
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby batonless relay » Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:56 am

ATK wrote:Is there any criteria for records in terms of representing your school? Do you actually have to be part of the schools track team? Did you have to compete for a certain amount of meets or time? Do you just have to be enrolled in school?

I just think Cain breaking these HS records but not even running for her school doesn't really make sense. Makes it seem as if any random HS kid can enter any random open meet and break a HS record.

It works in reverse (where you don't have to be enrolled at the school to participate). They call them "Tim Tebow rules" http://ideas.time.com/2012/02/16/tim-te ... ay-sports/
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby polevaultpower » Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:02 am

ATK wrote:Is there any criteria for records in terms of representing your school? Do you actually have to be part of the schools track team? Did you have to compete for a certain amount of meets or time? Do you just have to be enrolled in school?

I just think Cain breaking these HS records but not even running for her school doesn't really make sense. Makes it seem as if any random HS kid can enter any random open meet and break a HS record.


Cain is a high school student, it's not like she has dropped out of school to train full time.

The NFHS does not recognize her records, so if it bothers you that T&FN does, just find the NFHS record list and ignore any discussion about her here.
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:06 am

gh wrote:

rare or not, nobody (IMHO) should be getting credit for a HS Record as much 4+ months after they've actually graduated!


I agree with that. Middle of June of their senior year should be the end.
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby ATK » Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:08 am

polevaultpower wrote:Cain is a high school student, it's not like she has dropped out of school to train full time.

The NFHS does not recognize her records, so if it bothers you that T&FN does, just find the NFHS record list and ignore any discussion about her here.

Doesn't bother me. Just curious because it doesn't seem to make sense since there is no representation as with College.

So I was correct in saying that a random HS kid can enter any competition as an open athlete, run, and have his mark count towards HS stats, as long as they are academically enrolled in High school?
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby kuha » Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:09 am

Conor Dary wrote:
gh wrote:

rare or not, nobody (IMHO) should be getting credit for a HS Record as much 4+ months after they've actually graduated!


I agree with that. Middle of June of their senior year should be the end.


I'd say June 30, but it doesn't really make much difference. Everyone's in agreement that performances in August or September are out.
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Re: restrictions on meets for HS Records? [split]

Postby bad hammy » Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:10 am

The restrictions that the NFHS puts on HS records (basically the same rules Mr. Harkness is pushing) makes their HS record list a ridiculous joke. Jack Shepard and T&FN are doing just fine here - no significant changes required . . .
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