GBR Women's Indoor 400m and 4x400m

[samthemainman]

This year is the best year ever for the GB girls over 400m and hopefully they can do something special in Gothenburg.

PSD: 51.37
Eilidh Child: 51.50
Either of these two could medal I think...

Margaret Adeoye: 52.45 (to win the 'National' 400m at Birmingham - impressive, eh!)
Meghan Beesley 52.8
Shana Cox 52.97

We then have TBO who is rumoured to be doing the relay in Gothenburg... any others? Birmingham is often deceptively quick for 400m with good bends... but they seem to be in great shape. A UK 4x400m record is definitely on the cards me thinks... Can they topple the Russians?

[iain]

I fancy our girls this year, a team of Child-Adeoye-TBO-PSD is easily a match for the Russian IMO. Fingers crossed

[mump boy]

Haha why not start the year as we mean to go on, discussing the UK w4x400 ?!!

THe difference this year (indoors at least) seems to be that we don't have a weak link and we can all agree on the order.

(Now sit back and watch as UKA totally fuck it up as usual )

[iain]

Hmm, Ohuruogu-Cox-PSD-Child has a nice ring don't you think? ;P

[eldanielfire]

it's possible they could topple the Russian's as Russia isn't taking anybody who is in the A-team or even the B team by any means. Though the two Ksenia's will be dangerous, Ksenia Ustalova is a sub-50s runner and Ksenia Zadorina is probably as fast as anybody not named Christine on the brit team, with a 51sec or two in her career.

[iain]

Eldanielfire, could you use more punctuation in your posts? I'm not trying to make a dig, it's just sometimes I find them difficult to understand

[mump boy]

Hmm, Ohuruogu-Cox-PSD-Child has a nice ring don't you think? ;P

TBO, Emma Duck, Meghan Beesly, LInda Keough

[iain]

But you forgot Tasha :O

[samthemainman]

Agree with your first running order suggestion Iain... As TBO doesn't run the individual indoors her on the first leg could be a bit of nightmare... That order could work outdoors too. PSD defo has to be on last.

Mump - I completely agree they'll probably goof up... though I expect that more outdoors....

Phylis Smith can bring a smile to any line up...
Linda Keough was awesome in her day... split 1990 was great - she outran Perec!!

Any news on Nicola this year? I still look back on that 50.02 indoor run (and that 48.8 relay leg) in 2007 as outstanding. But alas, it was 6 years ago...

[mump boy]

Agree with your first running order suggestion Iain... As TBO doesn't run the individual indoors her on the first leg could be a bit of nightmare... That order could work outdoors too. PSD defo has to be on last.

Mump - I completely agree they'll probably goof up... though I expect that more outdoors....

Phylis Smith can bring a smile to any line up...
Linda Keough was awesome in her day... split 1990 was great - she outran Perec!!

She certainly was.

The fact that she, Sally Gunnell, Lee McConnell, PSD, Michelle Scutt have all run sub 50 in relays is one of the reasons TBO and 4x4 rubs me up the wrong way.

Even Kelly Sotherton and Marily Okoro, Jocelyn Hoyte Smith, Donna Hartley, Alison Curbishley have run faster than TBO in relays and and Georgina Oladapo has run the same time

[samthemainman]

Let's not forget Jennifer Stoute (Split 90, Barcelona 92), Kath Merry (Sydney), Donna Fraser even did a 50.1 in KL 98...

I love in hope that TBO will turn in a good leg sometimes. Sandie Richards and even Cathy Freeman were other runners who either couldn't or didn't get chance to do a killer relay leg.

Sally G ran two stormers in Tokyo - both 49.5 or quicker, a clever 49.9 in Stuttgart to outgun Sandie Richards and an agonising 49.45 in Helsinki 94 when we missed a medal...

I'm going off thread again but what is it that turns good flat runners into great relayers? I put Akabusi and Phil Brown in that group too...

[mump boy]

Let's not forget Jennifer Stoute (Split 90, Barcelona 92), Kath Merry (Sydney), Donna Fraser even did a 50.1 in KL 98...

I love in hope that TBO will turn in a good leg sometimes. Sandie Richards and even Cathy Freeman were other runners who either couldn't or didn't get chance to do a killer relay leg.

Sally G ran two stormers in Tokyo - both 49.5 or quicker, a clever 49.9 in Stuttgart to outgun Sandie Richards and an agonising 49.45 in Helsinki 94 when we missed a medal...

I'm going off thread again but what is it that turns good flat runners into great relayers? I put Akabusi and Phil Brown in that group too...

I didn't include Kath or Donna as their individual times are very comparable to TBO and should run faster than she has. You're right about Jenny her 50.4 in Barcelona is faster than anything TBOO has run despite the fact she never broke 51 in the individual.

Sandie Richards has a 49.4 from Athens in 97 ans Cathy a 49.3 from Sydney. Deon Hemmings has a 49.3 and even Davita Predeghast !! had a sub 50

TBO lack of commitment to the relay is one of the most annoying things in world athletics

[eldanielfire]

TBO lack of commitment to the relay is one of the most annoying things in world athletics

You keep stating TBO isn't commited to the relay (and use times alone to justify this) but on a few occasions the other girl's say that it is Christine who keeps the relay team going.

[mump boy]

TBO lack of commitment to the relay is one of the most annoying things in world athletics

You keep stating TBO isn't commited to the relay (and use times alone to justify this) but on a few occasions the other girl's say that it is Christine who keeps the relay team going.

I choose to judge it by what happens on the track where it matters rather than one random quote that makes absolutely no sense. She might want to try keeping herself going, during the race.

She is the Olympic and World champion at 400m yet had historically always been outrun by people massively inferior to her. I'm not having another discussion where you make excuses for her atrocious performances, let's just agree to differ.

[samthemainman]

I'm totally with mump on this one.... I just want to see her run out of her skin. FOR ONCE.

Mump - thanks for the Richards/Freeman stats - agreed they are decent splits - but considering Cathy's flat PB is a 48.6 - I'd have looked more for a 48ish/Felix style split.

[Flumpy]

Agree with your first running order suggestion Iain... ..

NOOOO!!!! He was joking.

Please iain tell me you were joking???

[Flumpy]

You keep stating TBO isn't commited to the relay (and use times alone to justify this) but on a few occasions the other girl's say that it is Christine who keeps the relay team going.

You should hear what they say in private!!!

[iain]

Agree with your first running order suggestion Iain... ..

NOOOO!!!! He was joking.

Please iain tell me you were joking???

Child-Adeoye-TBO-PSD wasn't a joke, TBO-Cox-PSD-Child was

And as to what 'they' say, it probably depends on who 'they' are

[samthemainman]

Child-Adeoye-TBO-PSD sounds like a great combo to me - Child on first and PSD on anchor... The middle two could go either way round indoors but I think your proposal is the safer one - Adeoye on 2nd outdoors would work as she'd go out fast I think and get us a good spot at changeover...

Mump I'm confused - do you not think that's a good order or am I bein fick?

[mump boy]

Child-Adeoye-TBO-PSD sounds like a great combo to me - Child on first and PSD on anchor... The middle two could go either way round indoors but I think your proposal is the safer one - Adeoye on 2nd outdoors would work as she'd go out fast I think and get us a good spot at changeover...

Mump I'm confused - do you not think that's a good order or am I bein fick?

I think it's the perfect order, my other suggestions were ones more likely to be selected by UKA

[samthemainman]

I'm glad we cleared that one up...

UKA have to bring back Emma Duck, surely? Poor Emma...

Seriously though - do any of the team have a say in preceedings or is it taken out of their hands completely?

Odds are 8-1 on Verona Elder coming back into the line up with Sandra Douglas as reserve.

[Flumpy]

Agree with your first running order suggestion Iain... ..

NOOOO!!!! He was joking.

Please iain tell me you were joking???

Child-Adeoye-TBO-PSD wasn't a joke, TBO-Cox-PSD-Child was

PHEW!!! Fully onboard with the former.

[mump boy]

I'm glad we cleared that one up...

UKA have to bring back Emma Duck, surely? Poor Emma...

Seriously though - do any of the team have a say in preceedings or is it taken out of their hands completely?

Odds are 8-1 on Verona Elder coming back into the line up with Sandra Douglas as reserve.

Were's Marilyn Neufville when you need her

[samthemainman]

[/quote]

Were's Marilyn Neufville when you need her [/quote]

How about Tracy Goddard (later Joseph)? She helped us to a great bronze in 1993 on third leg when Jenny Stoute was injured. Her flat PB was 53.23 but she managed a 51.4 to hand over to Sally in third after Phylis Smith's 50-flat awesome second leg... That's a relay best of two seconds faster than on the flat... that's the attitude! See the team here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDycCUeZ0BA

Gwen Torrence's opener of 49 flat was just jaw-dropping. Linda Keough wasn't in the best of form in 1993, but Phylis was a star and Sally's last leg wasn't her quickest (49.9) - but VERY clever. Privalova had a storming 48.4 too.

[andyjgt]

Maybe Curbishley comes back, and Mel Neef and Linsey Macdonald too...then we can have England v Scotland!

(Sinead Dudgeon can run a leg in the first round too if need be/for resting purposes.)

[samthemainman]

Now Melanie Neef was a gutsy runner!! She had a few GREAT first legs... Helsinki 94 when she ran out of her skin - 4 tenths faster than her then slow PB, Euro Cup 95 51.1, and Gothenburg 50.8 (each time faster than her flat PB)... then began her injuries and we didn't see her again apart from a disappointing indoor outing in 1996.

Allison Curbishley was always solid too - but she had no real kick though... I seem to remember her running 50.5-50.6 but not much faster.

Going back further Donna Hartley was always good - had a 50.1 to her name I think. Kathy Cook never really got going in the 4x400m and with a couple of exceptions (1st leg in 1983 and last leg in 1986 CG and probably a Europa Cup somewhere in there) stuck to the 4x100m.

Some of the best ever GB women's legs are probably:

Nicola Sanders Osaka run to take down Antyukh - 48.8 - incredible finish
Sally Gunnell's 3rd leg in Tokyo - 49.46 - really powerful
Sally Gunnell's final leg in Tokyo SF - 49.5
Nicola Sanders' anchor in Beijing - 49.57 - no medal though
PSD's anchor in Barcelona 2010 - 49.6
Linda Keough's anchor in Tokyo - 49.71 - but got outrun by Grit Breuer - one of the best ever relayers
Sally Gunnell's anchor in Stuttgart - 49.9 - smart, controlled run from a slow start to outrun Sandie Richards
Katherine Merry's anchor in Sydney - 49.77 - no medal though - awful first leg and a sub-par Curbishley on 3rd meant we were way out of reach - a big disappointment
Lee McConnell's anchor in Munich 2002 - 49.9 - no medal though
Michelle Scutt - London 82 - 49.98
Phylis Smith 2nd leg in Stuttgart - 50.0 - brought us from 5th to 3rd...
Linda Keough's final leg in Frankfurt 1991 - 50.0
Linda Keough's final leg in Split 1990 - 50.1
Donna Fraser's final leg in Kuala Lumper 1998 - 50.1

There were other memorable one's too. Sally's anchors in both the 1994 European Cup (50.1) and World Cup (50.8) were both great runs. The European Cup because she led from the front and the women qualified for the world cup, and the World Cup run because she came from a huge deficit behind to overtake Germany and the Americas. The team went out on a high that year after huge disappointment at the Euros in Helsinki (where they should have got at least silver but screwed up the running order putting Phylis and Linda on the wrong legs and there was huge changeover congestion) despite Sally's 49.45 leg - only a tenth slower than Perec's. Also at CG in Victoria where Sally had the worst ever anchor leg (apparently preoccupied with the Modahl scandal of that year - she went off far too slowly) and turned in a 51.2 (her slowest leg in a final for years) to be overtaken by Cathy Freeman. They won gold in the end due the Aussies being disqualified for baulking Nigeria - but it wasn't a sweet victory.

The World Indoor win last year was also fantastic - watching PSD hold off the advancing SRR was good viewing!!

[mump boy]

Nothing from out Olympic, World and Commonwealth Champion ?

[samthemainman]

Nothing from out Olympic, World and Commonwealth Champion ?

I could probably find about 20 better runs than the 50.5 relay best she has which I think dates back to Athens 2004 - 3rd leg. Her most 'impressive' leg for me was probably the 50.6 opener she had in Osaka 2007 - but even then she handed over in third or something - when she'd won the flat title.

It sounds like we're picking on her I know - and I do love to watch her in the individual - but I 100% share your frustration... almost as far as saying leave her out of the relay altogether if we have a strong 4 instead.

No news on Nicola then?

[mump boy]

Nothing from out Olympic, World and Commonwealth Champion ?

I could probably find about 20 better runs than the 50.5 relay best she has which I think dates back to Athens 2004 - 3rd leg. Her most 'impressive' leg for me was probably the 50.6 opener she had in Osaka 2007 - but even then she handed over in third or something - when she'd won the flat title.

It sounds like we're picking on her I know - and I do love to watch her in the individual - but I 100% share your frustration... almost as far as saying leave her out of the relay altogether if we have a strong 4 instead.

No news on Nicola then?

I think i love you

Why have we never met before, where have you been hiding yourself ?

[samthemainman]

Hahaha - i've been on every year... just not gone on about it in as much detail. It's probably my favourite event though.

[mump boy]

Hahaha - i've been on every year... just not gone on about it in as much detail. It's probably my favourite event though.

You're in the right place we have this same discussion obsessively every year. This one is looking better than usual

(we always say this and it usually ends in tears )

[drdan]

I love this thread! How about a TARDIS-enabled trans-historic all-time GBR women's 4x400 team? I'd go for:

1st leg: Katherine Merry (2000-2001 version)
2nd leg: Kathy Cook (1984 version)
3rd leg: Sally Gunnell (1993 version)
4th leg: Nicola Sanders (2007 version)

With Linda Keough (1991 version) as alternate.

[samthemainman]

Tweak that line up to show Merry in early 2001 form. Gunnell could probably be in 1991, 1993 or 1994 form (Despite the technically almost perfect 1993 400H, I think she was faster on the flat in 1991 and 1994). I'd add PSD to the reserve list - I like her gutsy approach even if she doesn't have Linda's smooth stride or tactical awareness.

Bring on Gothenburg and lets see what the outdoor season has to offer though.

[mump boy]

This year look very exciting

Eilidh is significantly faster indoors (51.50) than she is outdoors (52.28) and she ran 50.8 split in Helsinki so she is worth at least low 50's in relay, we all know what Perri's indoor (51.37) is basically the same as outdoor (51.24) so i think we can expect a massive improvement in the summer which means a very low 49 split. We know my issues with TBO so i can't attribute anything but a mid 50 to her and then as always we have a conundrum but i'm hoping Margaret Adeoye is the solution (it was supposed to be Shana). Nicola and Lee can still probably be depended on for a solid 51 or better as well

Overall there has been a massive step up in class from our 400m ladies this winter

Meghan Beesley and Laura wake (who i've never heard of before) have both pretty much equaled their outdoor best indoors

I'm under no illusion that we can beat RUS and JAM for minor medals but just once i'd like to see us put our A team out, run in the right order and ALL of them run to their ability

The UK record is very good but it's Marilyn is certainly not one of our top 400m ladies but look at the blinder she ran

Christine Ohuruogu (50.73) 17.05.84 GBR
Marilyn Okoro (50.44) 23.09.84 GBR
Lee McConnell ( 50.17) 09.10.78 GBR
Nicola Sanders (48.70) 23.06.82 GBR

especially compared to certain others

Last point Gwen's 49 first leg in 93 was awesome, her individual pb was 49.64 !! remind you of anyone else ??

[iain]

I've always seen this with Lee having a 49.9 and Marilyn as 50.8 - a great effort nonetheless