Dick Patrick needs to take a pill!!


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Dick Patrick needs to take a pill!!

Postby aaronk » Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:15 am

Dick Patrick (Who he?? I've seen his name, but know nothing about him!!) has an article on the front page about Mary Cain and her dubious chances for a World Leading future.
He says, except for a rare few (Slaney, Jennings, Gallagher, he names), high school girl phenoms do NOT reach World Class or medal in OG's or WC's or break WR's.
He then lists 3 main needs for a girl mid-long distance runner to be better than she was in high school.
They are: genetics, mechanics, and support.
Genetics: He says body changes at puberty, eating disorders, and just DNA can determine a HS phenom's future success.....or failure.
Mechanics: He says poor running form and lack of a well-rounded training program can lead to injuries.
Support: He says runners need loving and continuous support from a coach and family to succeed.

Well, I don't know about Mary Cain's DNA, or what changes her body has been going thrpough, but it sure hasn't done much to slow her down these past three years since she first started breaking records in her frosh year!!

Mechanics?? Isn't that SPECIFICALLY what Alberto Salazar said he'd be working on with Mary?? "biomechanical deficiencies"???

Support: It seems like Mary's parents are FULLY supportive of her endeavors....to the point THEY approved her going with Salazar!! And of course, with Salazar looking 10 years into her future, it sounds like that needed support will be there for her!!

Then he lists all the "failures" (CC champs who never made it, HS record setters who never ran that fast again, etc).....or the problems even his Select Three had along the road to World Domination!!
Slaney, of course, was injury prone.....and had a lousy attitude at times.
Jennings went through a dry period throughout her college career.
Gallagher, of course, very sadly died at a very young age (38), and had several physical problems before that.

I think Slaney was/is a bad example to use. She came on at a time when it was relatively easier for a female to become dominant and break records. After all, Title IX only came to pass one year before Decker emerged at age 14.
Her competition was far less wide-ranging. There was no African Revolution then!!

I think Mary Cain will be that rare exception to Dick Patrick's rule.
Take a pill, Dick!!
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Re: Dick Patrick needs to take a pill!!

Postby az2004 » Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:34 am

there is a dave patrick from 1968 olympic trials

http://villanovarunning.blogspot.com/20 ... rials.html
dont know if the 2 are the same

the mary decker and kim gallagher and mary cain's of the world have one key factor

they are 800 types with good footspeed

decker never lost it

i know the gallagher story well, as i know her ambler olympic coach

and her story in the 80s when she first ran into kratolilova, and how she responded to it


his idea that teen recordsetters who became olympiians is rare

i say add the qualifier WITH SPEED, decker and gallagher had the speed

the hasay types had no speed and have to move up in distance

i think cain is more like the genzebe dibaba than anyone

is dibaba disappearing

salazar job is to keep ker on pace
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Re: Dick Patrick needs to take a pill!!

Postby az2004 » Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:06 am

patrick mentions chock and fairchild as those without success after having it young

forgets flanagan, jennings did medal in 1992, goucher in 2007, simpson in 2011

cain has speed the 4 mentioned above do not have

and speed hasay couldonly dream about that;s why hasay should move up

ajee wilson has better speed that's why 800 should be her max event

decker, gallagher and cain are all very similar, and they had success..
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Re: Dick Patrick needs to take a pill!!

Postby ExCoastRanger » Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:55 pm

You need the chill pill.
And you need to re-read the article.
Patrick, the longtime track and running writer for USA Today (and as such probably one of the last reporters for mainstream media whose beat was track), casts no doubts, "dubious" or otherwise, on Cain's future. He does correctly point out the success of American junior phenoms in college and in the pros -- nevermind among the world's best -- is a rare exception rather than the rule. That's truth, not a knock against Cain.

The list of important factors he cites in successful development is not his, but come from coach Terry Crawford. He does point out that at least one of those young guns did go to Salazar but did not turn out to be a world beater in the pro ranks (she had her own issues, of course, but it just goes to show even a great coach isn't a magic bullet against our own limitations).
Patrick's article could have been addressed to you specifically, as well as anybody else with well-meaning hopes and expectations for an athlete who at this point is really just a girl with a lot of growing to do.
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Re: Dick Patrick needs to take a pill!!

Postby az2004 » Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:05 pm

i think the point i was trying to emhasize was the factor of speed

having speed is key

salazar didnt quite have it

decker, gallagher, and now cain have a good pace
at the end of a race

and having it is as asset

i think salazar is buiding it in this guys, farah and rupp

i think he realizes the last lap turn of pace is needed to have a chance

MISTAKE by me dave and dick patrick two different people

flanagan, goucher, simpson women are having more success recently, i think coaches are getting it right more frequently now
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Re: Dick Patrick needs to take a pill!!

Postby unclezadok » Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:51 pm

I think the main reason a small percentage of prodigies have success as senior athletes is that, the higher level of the sport you go, the harder you have to train, and not everyone wants to do it (who can blame them?) Throw in a couple of injuries, which are inevitable, and you have that in addition to the usual hard training required. This is true of both males and females and it probably is true of all sports.
I find the puberty argument particularly ridiculous. With a very few exceptions, girls who have running success at a younger age don't wind up looking like Sophia Loren or Scarlett Johansen as adults(although they are usually very attractive). This is why 12-year olds don't hold world records. Good grief, even top female gymnasts handle the body changes well, with all the somersaults and twists they have to do.

Having said that, I sincerely hope that this topic will never be raised again. We've all heard it 8 million times by now.
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Re: Dick Patrick needs to take a pill!!

Postby az2004 » Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:09 pm

unclezadok wrote:I think the main reason a small percentage of prodigies have success as senior athletes is that, the higher level of the sport you go, the harder you have to train, and not everyone wants to do it (who can blame them?) Throw in a couple of injuries, which are inevitable, and you have that in addition to the usual hard training required. This is true of both males and females and it probably is true of all sports.
I find the puberty argument particularly ridiculous. With a very few exceptions, girls who have running success at a younger age don't wind up looking like Sophia Loren or Scarlett Johansen as adults(although they are usually very attractive). This is why 12-year olds don't hold world records. Good grief, even top female gymnasts handle the body changes well, with all the somersaults and twists they have to do.

Having said that, I sincerely hope that this topic will never be raised again. We've all heard it 8 million times by now.




i have used mary decker and kim gallagher as the model for mary cain

and basic speed is the key to all three

i see no reason why cain cannot be like gallagher or decker

hasay is not a speed type, so moving up in distance she has a chance to find better success although she needs to improve her final lap

goucher and flanagan and simpson did have some success at hs and retained it after college

getting bored with the sport can happen

but the assumption that days are numbered i thing is a poor hypothesis
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Re: Dick Patrick needs to take a pill!!

Postby aaronk » Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:49 pm

ExCoastRanger wrote:You need the chill pill.
And you need to re-read the article.
Patrick, the longtime track and running writer for USA Today (and as such probably one of the last reporters for mainstream media whose beat was track), casts no doubts, "dubious" or otherwise, on Cain's future. He does correctly point out the success of American junior phenoms in college and in the pros -- nevermind among the world's best -- is a rare exception rather than the rule. That's truth, not a knock against Cain.

The list of important factors he cites in successful development is not his, but come from coach Terry Crawford. He does point out that at least one of those young guns did go to Salazar but did not turn out to be a world beater in the pro ranks (she had her own issues, of course, but it just goes to show even a great coach isn't a magic bullet against our own limitations).
Patrick's article could have been addressed to you specifically, as well as anybody else with well-meaning hopes and expectations for an athlete who at this point is really just a girl with a lot of growing to do.


You could be right, except I hate taking pills!! :D
I think I'm so focused on Cain (or ANYONE!!!!!) breaking records, that I may have misread some of Patrick's article.

With Cain, the MEGA success she's having now makes her a HUGE target.....both for LOTS of praise.....well deserved!!.....and for LOTS of critical articles.

It's the bane of ANYONE who rises to the top....in ANYTHING!!

Whatever the case, we are less than 24 hours away from what COULD be the next major step in Cain's young career!!

Go get 'em, Mary!!!
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Re: Dick Patrick needs to take a pill!!

Postby 26mi235 » Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:00 pm

One of the capabilities that you need to have to be world class is the be able to train extremely hard and for long periods of time. It helps a whole lot if you are inclined to do such training.

Phenoms have not yet had the degree/intensity of training and the duration of hard training the provide us with much information at all about their capabilities in this regard. Not reaching world-class status is thus far from given because there is a major element that is necessary that the athlete has not yet demonstrated.

With sprinters and high jumpers, the natural ability factor is more important than in other areas (especially the HJ), and thus the training requirement is not so important. I think that this is responsible for more hs phenoms from the sprint ranks making it to the top (although even there the lost rate is pretty high). The speed element that is important is not the kind of speed that Cain has, it is pure sprint speed that is less affected by the extreme training requirement.
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Re: Dick Patrick needs to take a pill!!

Postby az2004 » Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:43 am

salazar and henwood have been with cain for about 3 months

i first saw cain as a frosh when she ran the anchor leg on the dmr leg at penn relays, and it was evident then, she was special

she set freshman 1500 record

and then the next year set mile mark of 4:39 at penn with 62.5 last lap

all of this was before salazar

add alberto to the equation and she does 4:32

cain runs 2:03 800 before salazar

i think highly of salazar, and the 3k and 2 mile results show what he can do in a short time

what will cain do when 800 specific work gets incorporated more heavily
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Re: Dick Patrick needs to take a pill!!

Postby az2004 » Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:33 am

http://www.flotrack.org/speaker/15050-M ... man-Record

as a frosh 4:17 1500, takes the lead the whole way and kicks last lap, beating cuffe who would set the 2 mile record at new balance

this is way before salazar, her frosh year, so she must have done hard work to get to the 4:17 point


http://www.flotrack.org/coverage/248558 ... ampionship

here's cain 4:39 at penn from last year, piccirillo does push 3 lap, after cain leads 1,2

piccirrillo is frosh at villanova and ran 4:40 mile at penn state when reid ran 4:30

cain 62.5 last lap, again before salazar
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Re: Dick Patrick needs to take a pill!!

Postby aaronk » Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:16 am

az2004 wrote:salazar and henwood have been with cain for about 3 months

i first saw cain as a frosh when she ran the anchor leg on the dmr leg at penn relays, and it was evident then, she was special

she set freshman 1500 record

and then the next year set mile mark of 4:39 at penn with 62.5 last lap

all of this was before salazar

add alberto to the equation and she does 4:32

cain runs 2:03 800 before salazar

i think highly of salazar, and the 3k and 2 mile results show what he can do in a short time

what will cain do when 800 specific work gets incorporated more heavily


IMHO, Cain has NOT progressed.....at least TIMEwise.....under Salazar/Kenwood.
My differentials between 1500-1 mile are different from T&FN. They applied a 4:31 to her 4:11 from last year.
I apply a 4:28.
Thus her 4:32 doesn't match T&FN standards, let alone mine!!
As for her 9:04 3K (I also do NOT even count her 9:02, since it was run on a NON-legal track for record purposes!! IMO, her FASTEST 3K is her 9:04.51!!!), that doesn't come CLOSE to equaling (in relative value, by MY standards) what her 4:11 indicates she CAN do!!
I think her 4:11 brings on an 8:52 (at worst), as I give a 15 second slowdown between 1 and 2 miles (or between 1500 and 3000).
Thus, her 3K time SHOULD be, based on her 4:11, about 8:52.
And sometimes, it's okay to apply an even shorter slow down to the 1500/3K.....maybe 10-12 seconds, thus making her POTENTIAL off her 4:11 as fast as 8:42 for 3K!!!

And thus also is why I see her 9:04 as NOT "progress" under Salazar/Kenwood!!
IF she runs 4:28 or FASTER today, she will FINALLY be making some "progress " under her new coaches!!

This is NOT a rap at Salazar/Kenwood!!
This is just to state my opinions on her so called "progress"!!

However, all that said, she HAS beaten a few pro's and some collegians!!
She has NOT, though, yet faced the "true American elites", Pierce, Uceny, CWT, Simpson, Flanagan, Huddle et al at the 1500 to 2 mile distances (nor has she gone against the sub-2:00 800 women either!!).
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Re: Dick Patrick needs to take a pill!!

Postby 26mi235 » Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:58 am

Indoors does not equal outdoors, impatience does not equal enjoyment.
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Re: Dick Patrick needs to take a pill!!

Postby az2004 » Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:49 am

g dibaba former ethiopian teenage phenon

at birmigham 4.00.84 1500

cain has yet to do sppeedwork

world youth is her target, wait till she does 800..

all her stuff is off strngth work

wait till she gets outdoors...it's cold cold cold in northeast now
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Re: Dick Patrick needs to take a pill!!

Postby az2004 » Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:41 am

3k winner in 8:50, cain has 9:02 in seatlle

didnt catch judd brit junior time, but cain was close to it or beat it
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Re: Dick Patrick needs to take a pill!!

Postby az2004 » Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:33 am

1 Clitheroe , Helen GBR 8:50.16
2 Howarth , Lauren GBR 8:52.00
3 Bobocel , Ancuta ROU 8:52.86
4 McColgan , Eilish GBR 8:53.17
5 Reilly , Chelsea USA 8:53.89
6 Jelizarova , Polina LAT 8:58.11
7 Stewart , Emily GBR 8:59.38
8 Judd , Jessica GBR 9:00.06
9 Chepkwemoi , Nancy KEN 9:02.28
10 Machado , Ercília POR 9:05.87

judd is 17 and one year older than cain who is 16

chepkwemoi is 18 two years older than cain

their 3k times are essentially the same as 9:02 cain did at seattle
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Re: Dick Patrick needs to take a pill!!

Postby br » Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:08 am

az2004 wrote:1 Clitheroe , Helen GBR 8:50.16
2 Howarth , Lauren GBR 8:52.00
3 Bobocel , Ancuta ROU 8:52.86
4 McColgan , Eilish GBR 8:53.17
5 Reilly , Chelsea USA 8:53.89
6 Jelizarova , Polina LAT 8:58.11
7 Stewart , Emily GBR 8:59.38
8 Judd , Jessica GBR 9:00.06
9 Chepkwemoi , Nancy KEN 9:02.28
10 Machado , Ercília POR 9:05.87

judd is 17 and one year older than cain who is 16

chepkwemoi is 18 two years older than cain

their 3k times are essentially the same as 9:02 cain did at seattle


Judd is 18.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Judd
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Re: Dick Patrick needs to take a pill!!

Postby az2004 » Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:30 pm

wont judd be a world junior in eugene though in 2014

so she can do the 800 and 1500 her better distances

she seems a medal contender in both to me
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Re: Dick Patrick needs to take a pill!!

Postby aaronk » Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:53 pm

Judd just turned 18 in early January, so she'll still be considered a Junior throughout 2014.
As for her best event, potential, being as good as Cain etc, I'd say her 2:00.96 behind Wilson is her best matk.
Her 4:09/93 at age 17 and 6 months was barely better than Cain's 4:11.01 at 16 and 2 months!!
And their 3K times....Judd's 9:00 and change, and Cain's 9:04.51 (her REAL best time!!!) are pretty close, especially with their 18 month age difference.

But young runners....female OR male....are pretty hard to predict what their best distance will be later on.
I think both Judd and Cain could be GREAT at 5000!!!
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Re: Dick Patrick needs to take a pill!!

Postby eldanielfire » Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:53 pm

br wrote:
az2004 wrote:1 Clitheroe , Helen GBR 8:50.16
2 Howarth , Lauren GBR 8:52.00
3 Bobocel , Ancuta ROU 8:52.86
4 McColgan , Eilish GBR 8:53.17
5 Reilly , Chelsea USA 8:53.89
6 Jelizarova , Polina LAT 8:58.11
7 Stewart , Emily GBR 8:59.38
8 Judd , Jessica GBR 9:00.06
9 Chepkwemoi , Nancy KEN 9:02.28
10 Machado , Ercília POR 9:05.87

judd is 17 and one year older than cain who is 16

chepkwemoi is 18 two years older than cain

their 3k times are essentially the same as 9:02 cain did at seattle


Judd is 18.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Judd



Judd only just turned 18 and Cain will be 17 in 2 months. It hardly alters the point much and Judd has posted a faster 1500m than Cain when she PB'ed a month ago and is far from the best young 3000m region runner in the UK which won't seriously be her distance anyway.
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Re: Dick Patrick needs to take a pill!!

Postby az2004 » Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:12 pm

day 1 3000 final

800
day 1 heat
day 2 semis
day 3 finals

1500
day 4 heat
day 6 finals

thats the eugene schedule

judd looks like clear favorite for the 800


4:08.28Senbere Teferi ETH

4:09.93Jessica Judd GBR

4:11.01Mary Cain USA

4:11.98Alem Gereziher ETH

cain is 3rd on the 1500 list

lets see what time cain can put up in world youth ukraine

if judd does 800, he wont be freesh for 1500 semis, but i bet she'd make finals

have cain do 1500 only, the final would be a great race, 2 ethiopians, judd and cain and 3 medals

cain can do the 3000 then come back day 4 for the 1500 semis
or just do day 4 1500 semis

judd would have 3 races, then the 1500 semis

what will salazar do?
Last edited by az2004 on Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dick Patrick needs to take a pill!!

Postby aaronk » Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:18 pm

Don't be surprised if Emma Coburn either wins tonight...or runs VERY fast!!
Remember what her collegiate peer at CO did??
Jenny Barringer (nee Simpson) was a fast SC'er, then wound up going sub-4:00 at 1500, and running a 4:25 mile!!
Coburn might be following in her footsteps!!?
She DOES have a 9:23 SC to her credit!!
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Re: Dick Patrick needs to take a pill!!

Postby az2004 » Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:53 pm

http://www.flotrack.org/coverage/250015 ... rose-Games

emma coburn is taling about tonight

has raced since the olympic final

even she admits she doesn't quite no where she is right now

suspect moscow steeple is her primary goal

4:09 best 1500

4:33 best mile

i agreee she's in the race, but i cant see her beating sheila reid who i see as the favorite
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