What's wrong with Ukhov and Williams?


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What's wrong with Ukhov and Williams?

Postby Per Andersen » Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:19 pm

2.20 guys now? I can see a meet or two when nothing works but this is getting a bit much. About 4 meets each with results around 2.20 and in 9th or 10th place. Can't be injury problems at this time. Timing issues? Ukhov has a 2.30, but not lately. He normally does 2.25 in his "sitting in an easy chair" style.
Williams has been shell schocked since, pretty much, the US trials last year.

However, maybe Dusty Jonas is back. Lot's to like about his jumping. Waiting for Kynard!!!. Last year of college. Want to see what he can really do.
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Re: What's wrong with Ukhov and Williams?

Postby gh » Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:13 pm

with an indoor PR (and second-highest jump of his life) last week, I'd say Jonas is more than "maybe" back!
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Re: What's wrong with Ukhov and Williams?

Postby Dietmar239 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:26 am

Per Andersen wrote: Waiting for Kynard!!!. Last year of college. Want to see what he can really do.


One thing that I've noticed from Rovelto-coached athletes is that they rarely post high marks early in the season. They just seem overly flat for a large part of the season. I'm sure this kind of periodization is built in so that they can peak at the big events. Everyone tries to do that. The problem is, that if you aren't use to jumping at or seeing very high heights in competition until the big meets it can set you up for a busted performance when it really counts.
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Re: What's wrong with Ukhov and Williams?

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:59 am

Like in the Olympic Games :wink: [You know what you are talking about, it is only a joke]
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Re: What's wrong with Ukhov and Williams?

Postby Marlow » Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:01 am

Dietmar239 wrote:They just seem overly flat for a large part of the season. I'm sure this kind of periodization is built in so that they can peak at the big events. Everyone tries to do that. The problem is, that if you aren't use to jumping at or seeing very high heights in competition until the big meets it can set you up for a busted performance when it really counts.

The nature of jumps training (weight room and plyos) keeps the legs too 'depressed' (even with the occasional necessary down-times) for really high comp jumps, but most jumpers still jump at ridiculously high bungee heights for that very reason. There's also frequent ramp use which can put you over a height at least 8" higher than normal. The peaking phenomenon is critical (and difficult to time just right) in the jumps (though the LJ seems least affected by it, and to some degree, the PV) and woefully misunderstood by most.
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Re: What's wrong with Ukhov and Williams?

Postby Dietmar239 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:12 am

Marlow wrote:
Dietmar239 wrote:They just seem overly flat for a large part of the season. I'm sure this kind of periodization is built in so that they can peak at the big events. Everyone tries to do that. The problem is, that if you aren't use to jumping at or seeing very high heights in competition until the big meets it can set you up for a busted performance when it really counts.

The nature of jumps training (weight room and plyos) keeps the legs too 'depressed' (even with the occasional necessary down-times) for really high comp jumps, but most jumpers still jump at ridiculously high bungee heights for that very reason. There's also frequent ramp use which can put you over a height at least 8" higher than normal. The peaking phenomenon is critical (and difficult to time just right) in the jumps (though the LJ seems least affected by it, and to some degree, the PV) and woefully misunderstood by most.


You're absolutely right about this, but not everyone is in this "depressed state" or to the same degree despite the plyos, jump squats and the like. The Europeans have for years posted great marks even in early January. Thranhardt's 2.40m indoors in Simmerath was on 1/16/87 (let's not get into track surface). I believe Dragan Tancic was able to get more mini-peaks out of his athletes than what we're currently used to seeing. Holm often put up great heights early on and then carried a lot of that momentum into the WC. This is Kynard's last shot at breaking Conway's record, which indeed is a tall order. He needs some higher heights than the 2.28m that he put up last weekend. He should be up around Drouin's 2.32m that he recently posted.
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Re: What's wrong with Ukhov and Williams?

Postby Dietmar239 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:13 am

26mi235 wrote:Like in the Olympic Games :wink: [You know what you are talking about, it is only a joke]


Ha, you're funny! You know what? With a little more jumps at higher heights and the confidence that he got from actually jumping at 2.40m in competition (much different than practice bungees) he could potentially fly over it.
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Re: What's wrong with Ukhov and Williams?

Postby marknhj » Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:49 pm

I think we’re witnessing two different issues with Ukhov and Williams and they’re more related to psychological factors than physical ones. To me, Ukhov’s dodgy form is to do with post-Olympic comedown. For someone with his image of a few years ago to completely rehabilitate himself in the public eye and become Olympic Champion showed the strength of his inner mettle. He could have been destroyed by his drunken escapades but the opposite happened. Truly marvelous. I suspect that his mind is taking a rest and his core inner motivation has been been temporarily compromised (and that can happen despite him thinking he’s still trying to jump high).

Williams is another matter and I still have no idea why what happened to him at and after the Trails. It obviously impacted him and I’m sure he’s having something of a crisis of confidence. After the Games I got the impression that his reasoning could have been more practically constructive than his statements suggested, but I really have no idea. However, it shows that the margins of error both in technique and psychological preparedness are minuscule when elite athletes are facing high bars.

I’ve always believed that top guys should be able to physically jump within 10-15cms of their best no matter what part of their training cycle they’re in. At that level not jumping at the real high heights is probably not as much as a factor as some may imagine, certainly not to the extent that they’ve got to jump off ramps or at bungee cords (which I personally found to be worthless).

But even so, intangible psychological factors play a very significant part in high jumping. Sometimes, for no logical reason, you simply cannot jump as high as you wish or are physically prepared for. But conversely, heights that looked absolutely impossible to even envision clearing in training magically became much lower-looking when in competition.

(as a side note: I remember being at a training camp in Nice in the late 1970’s and the West German’s were also there. I watched Dragon Tancic have Dietmar’s namesake and Thranhardt do multiple full run-ups to a very high bar without taking off. The WR at the time was 2.34m and the bar was set at 2.40m. I thought they were being over-ambitious...)
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Re: What's wrong with Ukhov and Williams?

Postby Per Andersen » Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:13 pm

Good comments, Mark.
Yes, they might have different issues. I am more inclined to think Williams has technical issues.

Ukhov can just never be pinned down. When he opened with 2.30 beating Barshim it seemed normal and then.....2.15. Maybe he has not trained much, although he did say he had no clue what happened. Last year Ukhov did not have his usual strong indoor season, but outdoors, better than ever.
At this point I really can't see him beating Grabarz in Birmingham on Saturday. But then again, he's Ukhov!
Of the current world stars I think Grabarz has the best clearance technique of them all. Almost Holm like but 4 inches taller :)

I remember something Holm said about maybe competing too much indoors around the time he jumped 2.40 in Madrid in '05. He felt he was jumping better than ever and he just had to utilize it. The outdoor season could take care of itself.
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Re: What's wrong with Ukhov and Williams?

Postby Dietmar239 » Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:26 pm

Dietmar239 wrote:
Per Andersen wrote: Waiting for Kynard!!!. Last year of college. Want to see what he can really do.


One thing that I've noticed from Rovelto-coached athletes is that they rarely post high marks early in the season. They just seem overly flat for a large part of the season. I'm sure this kind of periodization is built in so that they can peak at the big events. Everyone tries to do that. The problem is, that if you aren't use to jumping at or seeing very high heights in competition until the big meets it can set you up for a busted performance when it really counts.


As a sidenote to this thread, I think Rovelto was reading my comments ;).

“Erik jumped well,” said K-State Head Coach Cliff Rovelto. “He needed the competition and to see higher bars in a meet. His last attempt at 2.38 was pretty good.”

Courtesy of k-statesports.com. Erik jumped 2.33m tonight and had two really good attempts at a new collegiate record of 2.38m.
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Re: What's wrong with Ukhov and Williams?

Postby Per Andersen » Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:52 pm

Dietmar239 wrote:

Courtesy of k-statesports.com. Erik jumped 2.33m tonight and had two really good attempts at a new collegiate record of 2.38m.

Good news! Things are heating up now. Dmitrik beating Grabarz and Ukhov. Grabarz had attempts at 2.39 in Sheffield. Ukhov attempting 2.33 again!
Russian males are fine. Mudrov over 2.34 + the youngsters Semyonov and Tsyplakov b. 1992 over 2.30.

BTW Russia is not sending any female HJers to the Euro Champs in Sweden!
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