Flotrack vs. LetsRun


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Flotrack vs. LetsRun

Postby JumboElliott » Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:08 pm

I just read that, and I couldn't believe that LetsRun would have a maturity edge over anyone.

Also, Flotrack Pro is overpriced, and bad for the sport. If they're going to charge that much, they'd better be live streaming every meet in America.
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Re: Flotrack vs. LetsRun

Postby j-a-m » Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:52 am

So those guys have been travelling around the country for years, putting together video content that otherwise wouldn't exist; now they charge for some of that content, and that's supposed to be bad for the sport? Really?
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Re: Flotrack vs. LetsRun

Postby Marlow » Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:33 am

There's no philosophical winners and losers here, just differing business models. The market will determine the real winners and losers.
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Re: Flotrack vs. LetsRun

Postby TN1965 » Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:01 am

I think there are a few problems here.

1. The price is way too high, compared to other contents available. $20/month is higher than what DirecTV or Dish charge for their sports pack. Or you can compare this to what UniversalSports used to charge for DL meets or WC. If I remember correctly, I paid $14.99 for the WC and $9.99 for the Indoor.

2. Their pricing is inflexible. You have to be either a monthly or a yearly member to view their streaming. But how many meets are they going to stream? If they offer a daily membership in addition to monthly and yearly, we can pay for only the meets we are interested in.

3. And aside from the two indoor meets at Armory, they have not announced which meets will be streamed. This is the biggest problem. They are asking people to pay the full price up front without telling them what the products are. It is like Amazon telling a customer "We will be selling an unspecified number of books for $100. But we can only tell you the titles of the first two books. You will know the titles of other books when they become available." How desperate does one have to be to agree to such a contract?
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Re: Flotrack vs. LetsRun

Postby Conor Dary » Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:21 am

They go from free to a pretty nutty pricing. 150 a year or 20 a month. How many are really signing up for this? Not I.
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Re: Flotrack vs. LetsRun

Postby Conor Dary » Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:23 am

j-a-m wrote:So those guys have been travelling around the country for years, putting together video content that otherwise wouldn't exist; now they charge for some of that content, and that's supposed to be bad for the sport? Really?


Well, yea, if no one signs up for it. It would be one thing if they charged 5 bucks a meet. But 20 a month. For what exactly? A couple of meets. Drills? Lift those knees!!!
Last edited by Conor Dary on Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Flotrack vs. LetsRun

Postby guru » Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:26 am

Here's my thing - Flotrack can charge whatever they want. But the product better be damn good, at least as good as Millrose's incredible HD broadcast last year, not a typical flotrack production - grainy video, eternal buffering, and sound quality that makes nails on a blackboard seem like Sinatra.

Buyer beware...
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Re: Flotrack vs. LetsRun

Postby Conor Dary » Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:33 am

guru wrote:Here's my thing - Flotrack can charge whatever they want. But the product better be damn good, at least as good as Millrose's incredible HD broadcast last year, not a typical flotrack production - grainy video, eternal buffering, and sound quality that makes nails on a blackboard seem like Sinatra.

Buyer beware...


Yea, I agree with all that. The price is nuts for the quality I remember.

And as for charging whatever they want. Well, it isn't their meet. What do the organizers get of it? A hundred people, if that many, watching it.
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Re: Flotrack vs. LetsRun

Postby odelltrclan » Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:49 am

They are trying to develop a niche. If you don't have a big market you cannot offer lower prices like one of the big cable providers. There are things they offer that the others do no. The question is whether their product will be wanted by enough people. No one is being forced to buy anything. If you don't feel their product is worth the price, don't pay for it. They are going to learn in a hurry whether or not their pricing works or not.
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Re: Flotrack vs. LetsRun

Postby Conor Dary » Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:05 am

odelltrclan wrote:They are trying to develop a niche. If you don't have a big market you cannot offer lower prices like one of the big cable providers. There are things they offer that the others do no. The question is whether their product will be wanted by enough people. No one is being forced to buy anything. If you don't feel their product is worth the price, don't pay for it. They are going to learn in a hurry whether or not their pricing works or not.


Really, a niche? More like a niche of a niche of a niche.

More comical than anything else. And yes, obviously we don't have to buy it. :roll:

I just think it is a crazy business decision. I didn't even know they started charging. Then you get this email about this exciting meet. And....by the way, you have to give us your first born, or the equivalent. A big turnoff.

PS. I can easily afford it, but I have no interest in it at that price. And I presume most of their audience had been a generation that seems to think every thing on the internet should be free. So good luck...
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Re: Flotrack vs. LetsRun

Postby odelltrclan » Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:25 am

Conor Dary wrote:
odelltrclan wrote:They are trying to develop a niche. If you don't have a big market you cannot offer lower prices like one of the big cable providers. There are things they offer that the others do no. The question is whether their product will be wanted by enough people. No one is being forced to buy anything. If you don't feel their product is worth the price, don't pay for it. They are going to learn in a hurry whether or not their pricing works or not.


Really, a niche? More like a niche of a niche.

More comical than anything else. And yes, obviously we don't have to buy it. :roll:

I just think it is a crazy business decision. I didn't even know they started charging. Then you get this email about this exciting meet. And....by the way, you have to give us your first born, or the equivalent. A big turnoff.


I agree. I stopped following their stuff a long time ago. Once in a blue moon do I go to their site. If they are charging like people are saying, I probably won't go back. Some of the videos they post as "media productions" are a joke. Someone with a hand held video device with the worst quality possible. Maybe they have improved some, or hope to with some funding. Will it work? I doubt it! but power to them. They are welcome to try!
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Re: Flotrack vs. LetsRun

Postby Conor Dary » Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:40 am

I just received this email from flotrack....

    Rupp and Mary Cain Take to the Track in less than 2hrs!

    It's almost time! Galen Rupp is less than 2hrs away from his AR attempt at BU Terrier in what should be an extremely competitive and entertaining men's mile! Keep an eye on NB Games, which is highlighted by the men's and women's mile.

Sell your car! Don't eat for a week! Give us your young! No Sapphire Martinis this month! And you can watch this meet!

I wish Rupp and Cain luck...but they will have to go without me watching...
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Re: Flotrack vs. LetsRun

Postby eldanielfire » Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:01 pm

Indeed. The costing is just ridiculous. Surely paywalls are proving to be ineffective unless you have some genuinely great s##t that appeals to a well-off demograph. Flo Track are selling low quality rubbish at sky high prices with difficult and inflexable conditions attached. Their money making ideas are well out of date for our developed internet era.

If some amateur websites like "That Guy with the Glasses" and "Red Letter Media" can make good bucks with self-made videos of good picture and sound quality with no charges than it's ridiculous to think Flo Track have any vague idea of how to run an internet based business. They should be screening videos for free, linking to highlights, both on the website and on YouTube and selling the full-meet version for download or on DVD. Quite simply what they are doing is doomed to stagnate rapidly or fail.
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Re: Flotrack vs. LetsRun

Postby Conor Dary » Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:12 pm

I suppose the equivalent would be if gh decided he suddenly raised to subscriptions to $250 a year. As a fine as TandFNews is that is a bit of a huge climb from a pretty reasonable, even cheap price now. They would lose most of what they have now and even if they realized...oops...it would be too late..
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Re: Flotrack vs. LetsRun

Postby TN1965 » Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:16 pm

Okay.

I have checked their site again, and now they have added 4 more indoor meets. They say they will announce the outdoor meets next week. (I don't know how many... )

This is apparently for the friends and family members who cannot travel to every meet. Not for "casual" fans.
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Re: Flotrack vs. LetsRun

Postby aaronk » Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:21 pm

Conor Dary wrote:I suppose the equivalent would be if gh decided he suddenly raised to subscriptions to $250 a year. As a fine as TandFNews is that is a bit of a huge climb from a pretty reasonable, even cheap price now. They would lose most of what they have now and even if they realized...oops...it would be too late..


I'd be willing to pay up to $200 per year for a PRINT edition of Track Newsletter, as long as it was similar to what we got before:

42 issues a year, sent first class snail mail
between 200 and 300 pages total, with some issues larger than others
a couple of "special" issues per year, like for the WC or OG or NCAA, etc

If it could be printed "on demand", I would imagine there would be a few people, like myself, who would be willing to pay $200 a year for TN, and that way, T&FN would just produce the number of subscriptions that are paid for!!
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Re: Flotrack vs. LetsRun

Postby guru » Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:22 pm

As mentioned, the value will be in the quality, which better be at least as good as Texas A&M today, which is fantastic - and free.

http://www.aggieathletics.com/mediaPort ... M_ID=27300


Some nice sprint races coming up, including Muna Leeand Jessica Beard in the 200
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Re: Flotrack vs. LetsRun

Postby Conor Dary » Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:24 pm

TN1965 wrote:Okay.

I have checked their site again, and now they have added 4 more indoor meets. They say they will announce the outdoor meets next week. (I don't know how many... )

This is apparently for the friends and family members who cannot travel to every meet. Not for "casual" fans.


So a few hundred at most. And what percentage would even sign up? I mean unless junior is a star, they may not even make the coverage. And I suspect a lot of these athletes have friends there taping their race on an iphone and sending it out free. Or at least they will when they see the bill.
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Re: Flotrack vs. LetsRun

Postby JumboElliott » Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:00 pm

Conor Dary wrote:I suppose the equivalent would be if gh decided he suddenly raised to subscriptions to $250 a year. As a fine as TandFNews is that is a bit of a huge climb from a pretty reasonable, even cheap price now. They would lose most of what they have now and even if they realized...oops...it would be too late..

The difference is that T&FN was never a free publication. They really backed themselves into a corner by giving stuff away for free for so long and then starting to charge a ludicrous price out of nowhere.

Also, the quality of the content in T&FN is second to none, something that you really can't say about Flotrack, whose quality varies from pretty good to plagiarized.
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Re: Flotrack vs. LetsRun

Postby Mighty Favog » Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:55 pm

Here's the angle that no one has looked at, but I am thinking about a lot.

A significant portion of Flotrack's existence can be credited towards its collaborative model. People gave freely of what they had because we all shared it. Heck, the website even has a contributor ranking page. I've contributed a lot of time and effort and gotten nothing back but (meager) travel expenses.

This kind of move towards a pay site has me really thinking about whether or not I should continue to do any volunteer work for them. I've committed to working three indoor meets and I'm not going to back out at this late date, but after that I'm probably done unless I get paid.

That said, everyone needs to remember that the only thing behind a paywall is the live coverage. All the races can still be viewed for free after the fact--and I think the last time I watched a live webcast at Flotrack was probably in 2010, so I don't feel like I'm missing anything.
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Re: Flotrack vs. LetsRun

Postby JumboElliott » Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:19 pm

Interesting perspective.
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Re: Flotrack vs. LetsRun

Postby meninblack » Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:37 pm

I think FT is at the third stage of their little project:

The first three stages being:

1.Wild Enthusiasm
2.Total Confusion
3.Disillusionment

Unfortunately the stages to come aren't good.
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Re: Flotrack vs. LetsRun

Postby Dutra5 » Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:49 pm

Like Conor Dary, I can afford the price but won't as I find it exhorbitant.

I also don't need anyone cheering on any particular athlete as an event unfolds as an air of professionalism should at least show a little.
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Re: Flotrack vs. LetsRun

Postby KevinM » Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:24 pm

Dutra5 wrote:Like Conor Dary, I can afford the price but won't as I find it exhorbitant.

I also don't need anyone cheering on any particular athlete as an event unfolds as an air of professionalism should at least show a little.


Agreed - I find it hard to believe that the prevailing wish is for something like we saw in the Rupp BU video. Dick Vitale would have blushed watching that on someone's iPhone in the Duke student section.
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Re: Flotrack vs. LetsRun

Postby Smoke » Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:53 pm

Ridiculous. Any of you ever ask what it cost to run these sites? Recall dyestat died?! I believe he quoted 15k.
Track has to grow, mature, and invest in itself. If its too much, there's a muh better way to express it than criticizing. The market will drive the price. You don't buy they lower or they die. But tell me what other site travels the world streaming meets? Not linking articles but creating their own content?
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Re: Flotrack vs. LetsRun

Postby ATK » Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:46 pm

Mighty Favog wrote:That said, everyone needs to remember that the only thing behind a paywall is the live coverage. All the races can still be viewed for free after the fact--and I think the last time I watched a live webcast at Flotrack was probably in 2010, so I don't feel like I'm missing anything.

This is key. your paying for what can be seen later. if its that important that you see it live, you would probably shell out the money. But I'm pretty sure most track fans are satisfied with (occasionally live)results and seeing the races later.

Smoke wrote:But tell me what other site travels the world streaming meets? Not linking articles but creating their own content?

I agree. The fact that they even put up these race videos is golden. Show me another site that shows tons of race videos from most major and some minor college meets, high school meets, the euro circuit, Canadian circuit and tons more. Workouts/interviews with not only the top athletes, but also the close to home developing athletes.
A guy with a video recorder is better than no video at all.
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Re: Flotrack vs. LetsRun

Postby JumboElliott » Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:10 am

Smoke wrote:Ridiculous. Any of you ever ask what it cost to run these sites? Recall dyestat died?! I believe he quoted 15k.
Track has to grow, mature, and invest in itself. If its too much, there's a muh better way to express it than criticizing. The market will drive the price. You don't buy they lower or they die. But tell me what other site travels the world streaming meets? Not linking articles but creating their own content?

Then they should have been a premium site from the beginning..
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Re: Flotrack vs. LetsRun

Postby Conor Dary » Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:54 am

No one is saying they shouldn't charge. But to go from nothing to 20 a month is pretty silly and a poor business decision, considering how little content there is available. This isn't 40 years ago when there were a lot of top quality meets. (By the way, I only pay a few dollars more per month for The New York Times and that includes the print edition.) And especially since their production still seems amateurish. It doesn't even look like they use a tripod. And the announcers are over the top and annoying in my opinion.

And since I really don't think they know what they are doing, giving them my credit card is last on my list of good ideas. I sense cancellation would be not be easy.

Anyways, I wish them luck. But unless they lower their fees alot I think they are doomed.
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Re: Flotrack vs. LetsRun

Postby ATK » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:08 am

Conor Dary wrote:No one is saying they shouldn't charge. But to go from nothing to 20 a month is pretty silly and a poor business decision, considering how little content there is available. This isn't 40 years ago when there were a lot of top quality meets. (By the way, I only pay a few dollars more per month for The New York Times and that includes the print edition.) And especially since their production still seems amateurish. It doesn't even look like they use a tripod. And the announcers are over the top and annoying in my opinion.

And since I really don't think they know what they are doing, giving them my credit card is last on my list of good ideas. I sense cancellation would be not be easy.

Anyways, I wish them luck. But unless they lower their fees alot I think they are doomed.

Your speaking as if you cant enter the site without paying.
90% of their content is free. The other 10% most fans can live without.
Live meet? if you really cant wait a couple hours after to view every race video for free then too bad.
There is no other site that gives as much content as flotrack does...
And you cant expect diamond league, or even TV quality videos at every HS and college meet they attend.
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Re: Flotrack vs. LetsRun

Postby eldanielfire » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:16 am

How did this Letsrun vs Flotrack feud start BTW?
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Re: Flotrack vs. LetsRun

Postby Conor Dary » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:21 am

ATK wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:No one is saying they shouldn't charge. But to go from nothing to 20 a month is pretty silly and a poor business decision, considering how little content there is available. This isn't 40 years ago when there were a lot of top quality meets. (By the way, I only pay a few dollars more per month for The New York Times and that includes the print edition.) And especially since their production still seems amateurish. It doesn't even look like they use a tripod. And the announcers are over the top and annoying in my opinion.

And since I really don't think they know what they are doing, giving them my credit card is last on my list of good ideas. I sense cancellation would be not be easy.

Anyways, I wish them luck. But unless they lower their fees alot I think they are doomed.

Your speaking as if you cant enter the site without paying.
90% of their content is free. The other 10% most fans can live without.
Live meet? if you really cant wait a couple hours after to view every race video for free then too bad.
There is no other site that gives as much content as flotrack does...
And you cant expect diamond league, or even TV quality videos at every HS and college meet they attend.


Yes, I realize their non live stuff is free. Though even that was confusing.

And yes, I can wait. So can everyone else. Which makes their business model even sillier. I mean who is dumb enough to pay those ridiculous prices if the race is free a couple hours later.

I do want to point out, I am not complaining. They can charge whatever they want, I don't care at all. I hardly ever watched flotrack live when it was free. I would try to catch something if it was interesting live and had nothing else to do. But that wasn't that often.
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Re: Flotrack vs. LetsRun

Postby Conor Dary » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:21 am

eldanielfire wrote:How did this Letsrun vs Flotrack feud start BTW?


What feud?
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Re: Flotrack vs. LetsRun

Postby eldanielfire » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:31 am

Conor Dary wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:How did this Letsrun vs Flotrack feud start BTW?


What feud?


All I've read these past few days is Letsrun posters slagging off the Flotrack bros and the Flotrack Bros have apparently made a video slagging off the Letsrun website.

I'd ask at Letsrun message boards whihc are always quite busy but you can't mention an athlete there without trolls constantly declaring what magic drugs they are ona dn the magic masking agents that Letsrun posters know all about but can't specifically name or talk about how they actually work and Flotrack always so flashly stuff heavy it seems to run waaaaay to slowly for my laptop.
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Re: Flotrack vs. LetsRun

Postby Conor Dary » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:44 am

eldanielfire wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:How did this Letsrun vs Flotrack feud start BTW?


What feud?


All I've read these past few days is Letsrun posters slagging off the Flotrack bros and the Flotrack Bros have apparently made a video slagging off the Letsrun website.

I'd ask at Letsrun message boards whihc are always quite busy but you can't mention an athlete there without trolls constantly declaring what magic drugs they are ona dn the magic masking agents that Letsrun posters know all about but can't specifically name or talk about how they actually work and Flotrack always so flashly stuff heavy it seems to run waaaaay to slowly for my laptop.


I want to make it clear I am not defending letsrun. I haven't been there in years.
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Re: Flotrack vs. LetsRun

Postby az2004 » Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:09 am

i took a look at letsrun to see what they had to sayabout the 4:32


there are many opinions out there

if you stay here you tend to get the informed adult opionion

letsrun tends to be far more emotional erratic views, a mix of what's out there

take them as a grain of salt
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Re: Flotrack vs. LetsRun

Postby Marlow » Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:14 am

az2004 wrote:letsrun
take them as a grain of salt

If by 'grain', you mean this, then yes.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Gkuk0p9kMNM/T ... +Small.jpg
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Re: Flotrack vs. LetsRun

Postby lionelp1 » Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:17 am

I think highly of Letsrun but NOT the foul mouthed nasty people that exist and infest their Forum. Their coverage across the board is generally fine and the interviews are excellent. The oppo to see and hear the race at Boston and Rupps comments was welcome.

Are the posters who write on Letsrun typical Americans?
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Re: Flotrack vs. LetsRun

Postby ATK » Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:18 am

Conor Dary wrote:Yes, I realize their non live stuff is free. Though even that was confusing.

And yes, I can wait. So can everyone else. Which makes their business model even sillier. I mean who is dumb enough to pay those ridiculous prices if the race is free a couple hours later.

I do want to point out, I am not complaining. They can charge whatever they want, I don't care at all. I hardly ever watched flotrack live when it was free. I would try to catch something if it was interesting live and had nothing else to do. But that wasn't that often.

Again 90% of their site are FREE race videos and interviews. the other 10% is the stuff you pay for that most track fans can do without.
If you hardly ever watched flotrack, why are you commenting so much just to be negative towards them in the first place?
If you did follow flotrack for the past couple years, you would realize that basically nothing has changed except maybe the site layout. Most of the content is pretty much the same and as free as ever
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Re: Flotrack vs. LetsRun

Postby JumboElliott » Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:28 am

lionelp1 wrote:I think highly of Letsrun but NOT the foul mouthed nasty people that exist and infest their Forum. Their coverage across the board is generally fine and the interviews are excellent. The oppo to see and hear the race at Boston and Rupps comments was welcome.

Are the posters who write on Letsrun typical Americans?

They're typical anonymous internet posters.
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Re: Flotrack vs. LetsRun

Postby Marlow » Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:39 am

Are the posters who write on Letsrun typical Americans?
They're typical anonymous internet posters.

Of the younger, more obnoxious kind.
I do agree the home-page of Letsrun is a cornucopia of great stuff. There is also valuable content in the Message Board, but the signal-to-noise ration is so low, that it's barely worth the effort to find it.
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