USATF 2013 Outdoor World Champs Qualifying Procedures


Main message board: for the discussion of topical track & field items only.

USATF 2013 Outdoor World Champs Qualifying Procedures

Postby dl » Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:49 pm

http://www.usatf.org/Events---Calendar/ ... ction.aspx

If I'm not mistaken, these qualifying procedures have changed significantly from 2007, 2009 and 2011.

The biggest differences:

1. Having the "B" and placing top 3 (assuming the other 2 in the top 3 have the "A") will not guarantee you a spot on the team.

So, if the finish is A, B, A, B, they will NOT name the top 3 as the team. The B's can chase the "A" standard through the IAAF July 20 deadline, and if the 4th placer gets the "A" but the 2nd placer doesn't, that 4th placer will be named to the team.

Or am I reading it incorrectly?
dl
 
Posts: 1805
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:30 am

Re: USATF 2013 Outdoor World Champs Qualifying Procedures

Postby ATK » Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:31 pm

dl wrote:So, if the finish is A, B, A, B, they will NOT name the top 3 as the team. The B's can chase the "A" standard through the IAAF July 20 deadline, and if the 4th placer gets the "A" but the 2nd placer doesn't, that 4th placer will be named to the team.

Or am I reading it incorrectly?

I thought that's how its always been for the WC? If there are less than 3 A's, the highest placing B who gets the A standard goes.
ATK
 
Posts: 3808
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 6:00 pm

Re: USATF 2013 Outdoor World Champs Qualifying Procedures

Postby dl » Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:09 pm

ATK wrote:
dl wrote:So, if the finish is A, B, A, B, they will NOT name the top 3 as the team. The B's can chase the "A" standard through the IAAF July 20 deadline, and if the 4th placer gets the "A" but the 2nd placer doesn't, that 4th placer will be named to the team.

Or am I reading it incorrectly?

I thought that's how its always been for the WC? If there are less than 3 A's, the highest placing B who gets the A standard goes.


No, the IAAF allows 2 A's and 1 B for the World Champs (Olympics are 3 A's), so a "B" in the top 3, as long as the other 2 had "A's", would automatically make the team. A couple examples that pop to mind are Erin Donohue in the 1500 in 2007 and Scott Bauhs in the 10,000 in 2011.
dl
 
Posts: 1805
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:30 am

Re: USATF 2013 Outdoor World Champs Qualifying Procedures

Postby gh » Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:11 pm

What we printed in the March '11 edition (and said was no change from '09):


<<Athletes in the first 4 will have until August 8, a week before the IAAF’s deadline, to chase qualifiers (placers below that are not allowed to chase).

If the first 3 are A-A-A, they go.

Winning at Nationals is prime, so if the first 3 are A-A-B, A-B-A or B-A-A the 4th-placer will not supplant the B even if they have an A.

A scenario with two B’s and an A with an A in 4th will see the A replace the lower of the B’s, to ensure a 3-person team.>>

So it sounds as if changes have been made.
gh
 
Posts: 46335
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Re: USATF 2013 Outdoor World Champs Qualifying Procedures

Postby tandfman » Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:19 pm

dl wrote: . . . .Or am I reading it incorrectly?

I think you are probably reading it incorrectly. Once again, USATF has produced an almost incomprehensible narration on this subject, but as I read it, in the situation you mentioned, where the Nationals finish is A,B,A,B and the 4th placer chases and gets the A, the team can (and I assume would) consist of the top 3. I think the key sentence is this:
In each event, the rank order of the finish at the 2013 USA Track & Field Championships shall determine whether an athlete competes or is designated an alternate at the World Championships.
tandfman
 
Posts: 15043
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am

Re: USATF 2013 Outdoor World Champs Qualifying Procedures

Postby dl » Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:11 pm

tandfman wrote:
dl wrote: . . . .Or am I reading it incorrectly?

I think you are probably reading it incorrectly. Once again, USATF has produced an almost incomprehensible narration on this subject, but as I read it, in the situation you mentioned, where the Nationals finish is A,B,A,B and the 4th placer chases and gets the A, the team can (and I assume would) consist of the top 3. I think the key sentence is this:
In each event, the rank order of the finish at the 2013 USA Track & Field Championships shall determine whether an athlete competes or is designated an alternate at the World Championships.


It certainly isn't very well written. They could've made things much more straightforward by providing examples for each possible finish (AABA, ABAB, etc.).

But by my reading of the text, I think things have changed. Below bolding is mine.

"The top three (3) rank order finishers in each event at the 2013 USA Track & Field Championships will automatically select themselves to the USATF team for the World Championships (the “Team”), provided that each has achieved the applicable IAAF “A” Standard and meets all other qualifications."

Why put in the qualifying phrase in bold unless they are NOT allowing a "B" in the top 3 to automatically be named to the team.

"If each of the top four (4) rank order finishers has not achieved the IAAF “A” standard, each athlete among the top four (4) finishers who has not achieved the “A” standard will have until midnight PDT on July 20, 2013 to achieve the “A” standard."

Why make a provision for the top 4 to chase the "A" if the top three consist of 2 "A's" and 1 "B"?

"If after July 20, 2013 any of the top four (4) rank order finishers have not achieved the “A” standard, USATF may, in its discretion, enter one (1) athlete who has not achieved the “A” standard, provided that said athlete has achieved the “B” standard in that event during the qualifying period."

This above paragraph indicates to me that they will only name a top three trio of 2 "A's" and 1 "B" AFTER the 4th placer fails to hit the "A" by July 20.
dl
 
Posts: 1805
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:30 am

Re: USATF 2013 Outdoor World Champs Qualifying Procedures

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:01 pm

dl sounds like he has the situation, including questioning the language and the decisions in this case. How can they be so utterly inept at writing the important qualification criteria?

There is a reason to allow some chasing by the top four when two of them do not have the B which is that the alternate in an ABAB cannot go if one of the "A"s drops out, and so might be replaced by the highest placing "A" not in the top 4, although it seems implicit that the "A" in such cases was attained by the time of the Final.
26mi235
 
Posts: 16337
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Madison, WI

Re: USATF 2013 Outdoor World Champs Qualifying Procedures

Postby gh » Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:39 pm

dl really hit the nail on the head when he said this: <<They could've made things much more straightforward by providing examples for each possible finish (AABA, ABAB, etc.).>>

Why use confusing words, when simple "pictures" like the letter examples tend to leave little doubt what you mean.

I'm still unclear on whose interpretation is the correct one.
gh
 
Posts: 46335
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Re: USATF 2013 Outdoor World Champs Qualifying Procedures

Postby j-a-m » Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:54 am

dl wrote:"If after July 20, 2013 any of the top four (4) rank order finishers have not achieved the “A” standard, USATF may, in its discretion, enter one (1) athlete who has not achieved the “A” standard, provided that said athlete has achieved the “B” standard in that event during the qualifying period."

This above paragraph indicates to me that they will only name a top three trio of 2 "A's" and 1 "B" AFTER the 4th placer fails to hit the "A" by July 20.

And what's up with the use of the term "in its discretion"? Isn't the whole point that there's no discretion?
j-a-m
 
Posts: 2449
Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 8:21 pm

Re: USATF 2013 Outdoor World Champs Qualifying Procedures

Postby tandfman » Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:19 am

j-a-m wrote:And what's up with the use of the term "in its discretion"? Isn't the whole point that there's no discretion?

I was wondering about that myself.
tandfman
 
Posts: 15043
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am

Re: USATF 2013 Outdoor World Champs Qualifying Procedures

Postby gh » Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:58 am

I don't read it that last bit way at all (oh goodie, another interpretation!). I think it says that if the first four are B-B-B-B, they may not enter anyone.

To me, the real key overall is that the winner is no longer guaranteed a place, which isn't a very good way to sell a track meet.
gh
 
Posts: 46335
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Re: USATF 2013 Outdoor World Champs Qualifying Procedures

Postby athleticshushmail » Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:07 am

gh wrote:I don't read it that last bit way at all (oh goodie, another interpretation!). I think it says that if the first four are B-B-B-B, they may not enter anyone.

To me, the real key overall is that the winner is no longer guaranteed a place, which isn't a very good way to sell a track meet.


That's really an awful change if the winner is no longer guaranteed a place. That type of drama is what makes the trials such high quality entertainment. It has to be everything at stake.
athleticshushmail
 
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:22 am

Re: USATF 2013 Outdoor World Champs Qualifying Procedures

Postby gh » Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:32 am

On the positive side, note that they've made it clear how the "conflicting" Wild Card people (cna't remember who/if those are at the moment) will be treated.

Reigning world champs get wild card as always. The Diamond League champ wild card comes into play only if there is no reigning world champ.
gh
 
Posts: 46335
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Re: USATF 2013 Outdoor World Champs Qualifying Procedures

Postby mcgato » Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:33 am

Poorly written as others have said, but I don't see a change from past practices.

Auto Qualifying: These are the reasons where it is cut and dried who is going:
1. Top three are A
2. Defending world champ
3. 2012 DL champ, with some restrictions

Other qualifying: These are for when the AQ is not met for an event, i.e. at least one of the top three does not have an A:
1. Top 4 can chase an A standard if they don't have it. The word "each" probably should have been "any."
2. Once qualifying window closes, they will choose no more than 1 B to travel. This is based on finish order from the national champs (see #5 below).
3. Deals with having a B travel and a B as an alternate.
4. No Bs, nobody goes.
5. Order of finish at national champs is the main criteria to travel.
mcgato
 
Posts: 1607
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Hoboken

Re: USATF 2013 Outdoor World Champs Qualifying Procedures

Postby gh » Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:52 am

B winner was guaranteed in the past; that doesn't seem to be the case now. No?
gh
 
Posts: 46335
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Re: USATF 2013 Outdoor World Champs Qualifying Procedures

Postby mcgato » Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:20 am

Not how I read it. From the other qualifying, after the chase for marks is done, they pick no more than 1 B qualifier. So if first is B, he or she goes. That is what OQ #2 says, along with OQ #5 which says that finish order at nationals is the main determining factor.
mcgato
 
Posts: 1607
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Hoboken

Re: USATF 2013 Outdoor World Champs Qualifying Procedures

Postby gh » Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:30 am

now we're back to the picky part, where they say they MAY pick 1 B. Which to me, combined with what meant before says that if, for example, the finish is B-A-A-A, the B person has the chase time, and at the end of the case time, USATF "at its discretion" might put them on the team. But isn't obligated to.
gh
 
Posts: 46335
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Re: USATF 2013 Outdoor World Champs Qualifying Procedures

Postby mcgato » Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:46 am

Won't disagree on the "at their discretion" part, but I think that #5 stating that the finish order at nationals determines who competes should put the B on the team in the case of BAAA.

Of course, nobody really knows what will happen with USATF.
mcgato
 
Posts: 1607
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Hoboken

Re: USATF 2013 Outdoor World Champs Qualifying Procedures

Postby dl » Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:12 am

gh wrote:B winner was guaranteed in the past; that doesn't seem to be the case now. No?


In 2007, 2009 and 2011, a "B" who finished in the top 3, as long as the other 2 in the top 3 had "A's", was also guaranteed to be on the team.
dl
 
Posts: 1805
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:30 am

Re: USATF 2013 Outdoor World Champs Qualifying Procedures

Postby gh » Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:31 am

So the one thing that we do know for sure is that USATF is using different wording this year. Now we simply need to figure out why the change:

a--because the criteria themselves have changed

b--because the criteria haven't changed, but they wanted to make the explanation easier to understand

Either way..... fail!
gh
 
Posts: 46335
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Re: USATF 2013 Outdoor World Champs Qualifying Procedures

Postby tandfman » Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:36 am

gh wrote:On the positive side, note that they've made it clear how the "conflicting" Wild Card people (cna't remember who/if those are at the moment) will be treated.

Reigning world champs get wild card as always. The Diamond League champ wild card comes into play only if there is no reigning world champ.

The only event in which that's relevant is the 110m Hurdles, where the USA has both the World Champ (Richardson) and the DL champ (Merritt).
tandfman
 
Posts: 15043
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am

Re: USATF 2013 Outdoor World Champs Qualifying Procedures

Postby 26mi235 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:46 am

I suspect that Merritt can make the top three, but it is a sprint race (FS) over hurdles (fall).

As for the rules, if they are going to have the power to push out a B they should be clear if it applies to BAAA or only ABxyz and AABxyz, cBA, ... etc. I think that it is a mistake to make it apply to a case of BAA, especially if it is BAAA, so the alternate is guaranteed.
26mi235
 
Posts: 16337
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Madison, WI

Re: USATF 2013 Outdoor World Champs Qualifying Procedures

Postby dl » Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:50 am

I reached out to two people at USATF who work with the international teams, but both are out of the office for the next week.
dl
 
Posts: 1805
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:30 am

Re: USATF 2013 Outdoor World Champs Qualifying Procedures

Postby gh » Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:06 pm

I don't want to say this is 100% accurate, but I've talked with somebody who should know the score, and they say that there are no changes from '11.
gh
 
Posts: 46335
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Re: USATF 2013 Outdoor World Champs Qualifying Procedures

Postby dl » Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:52 pm

Got this from USATF today: "The procedure is the same as other past World Championships. We can enter up to 4 individuals with a combination of three A's and 1B or 2 A's and 1 B or 4A's. If the 100m finish is an A, A, B, A then the B makes the team with the first two A's and the fourth place A is the alternate."

Sorry for raising the alarm, but I stand by my initial interpretation that, as worded, the procedure had changed.
dl
 
Posts: 1805
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:30 am

Re: USATF 2013 Outdoor World Champs Qualifying Procedures

Postby gh » Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:13 pm

I agree with you.... the new wording made it worse, not better.
gh
 
Posts: 46335
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Re: USATF 2013 Outdoor World Champs Qualifying Procedures

Postby Walt Murphy » Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:44 pm

gh wrote:I agree with you.... the new wording made it worse, not better.


I have been told by a good source that the wording will be changed, hopefully eliminating any confusion.
Walt Murphy
 
Posts: 1738
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: USATF 2013 Outdoor World Champs Qualifying Procedures

Postby gh » Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:49 pm

and the over/under on success is.... :twisted:
gh
 
Posts: 46335
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Re: USATF 2013 Outdoor World Champs Qualifying Procedures

Postby 26mi235 » Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:48 pm

Better, not good -- the first standard is pretty low, the latter has no precursors on this topic recently.
26mi235
 
Posts: 16337
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Madison, WI

Re: USATF 2013 Outdoor World Champs Qualifying Procedures

Postby dl » Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:26 am

One thing that HAS changed is that USATF will only enter 3 athletes in the marathon, even though they are allowed 5. They World Cup team competition has been eliminated, but the IAAF is sticking with the 5-per-country allotment.

http://usatf.org/Events---Calendar/2013 ... ction.aspx

From the IAAF World Champs qualifying standards info:

In the Marathon a maximum of six athletes may be entered but no more than five
will be allowed to start. The reigning World Outdoor Champion may also compete
if entered by his Federation, but he must be within the five. Please be reminded
that the World Marathon Cup team event has been discontinued.
dl
 
Posts: 1805
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:30 am

Re: USATF 2013 Outdoor World Champs Qualifying Procedures

Postby dl » Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:36 pm

dl
 
Posts: 1805
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:30 am


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: BruceFlorman, Exabot [Bot], Speedster and 9 guests