vintage geography trivia


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vintage geography trivia

Postby gh » Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:58 am

so was perusing my alumni magazine and they had a page that reproed a famed map of North America from 1710.

The Great Lakes are there, the boundaries looking very well drawn.

But then there's the naming!

two of the lakes have the same names as they do today

one lake goes by two variants; one of them is the name of the lake today, the other is the name of another lake.

two of the lakes have names that no longer exist (or are in common use, that's for sure).

So, fill in the blanks with what they're called on the map (west to east)

Superior =
Michigan =
Huron =
Erie =
Ontario =


???
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Re: vintage geography trivia

Postby gm » Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:51 am

I know Superior was also called Gitcheegoomi (spelling definitely not right!) at some point.
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Re: vintage geography trivia

Postby gh » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:07 am

""By the shores of Gitchee Gumee, By the shining Big-Sea-Water, Stood the wigwam of Nokomis, Daughter of the Moon, Nokomis. Dark behind it rose the forest...."

Longfellow aside, on this map everything is in Anglo terminology.
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Re: vintage geography trivia

Postby Conor Dary » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:29 am

The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down
of the big lake they call "Gitche Gumee."
"Superior," they said, "never gives up her dead
when the gales of November come early!"
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Re: vintage geography trivia

Postby Marlow » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:57 am

Conor Dary wrote:The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down
of the big lake they call "Gitche Gumee."
"Superior," they said, "never gives up her dead
when the gales of November come early!"

I spent all my summers on Lake Erie and remember something about two of them being called Upper Lake and Lower Lake. Ontario and Erie?
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Re: vintage geography trivia

Postby Jnathletics » Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:53 pm

I should know this ?!?!?! My family took a trip to Mackinaw two years ago and I think I've seen the map you are talking about. In the imortal words of Charlie Brown, "Ughhhhh"

"Kitchi-Gummi" is an indian name for Superior, and it appears that GH is looking for the English names. But he confuses us with listing 7 lakes in his clues?!?!?

My guesses would have to be

Superior = sea lake
Michigan = Michigan
Huron = Iroquis
Erie = Ontario
Ontario = Upper lake

Know I have to go look this up :oops:

If it helps someone, I got none right?!?!? :(
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Re: vintage geography trivia

Postby gh » Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:49 am

Marlow wrote:.....
I spent all my summers on Lake Erie and remember something about two of them being called Upper Lake and Lower Lake. Ontario and Erie?


I'm guessing that's a simple function of physical geography: Erie is much higher than Ontario and drops over Niagara Falls, so calling those upper and lower would make sense as a localism.

Those names not correct for either.... but one is correct for another!
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Re: vintage geography trivia

Postby Master Po » Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:24 am

OK, so I'll guess that at one point Lake Superior was Upper Lake. (By the way, I have no idea what's correct, but am interested in finding out the correct answers.)
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Re: vintage geography trivia

Postby gh » Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:34 am

Yes, on this map Superior is Upper Lake.

So you now know that of the four remaining lakes, two have names that haven't changed. And that one of the four had two names, one of which stayed, the other of which migrated to another lake. And the name of the migrate-to lake disappeared.
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Re: vintage geography trivia

Postby dukehjsteve » Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:55 am

Speaking of Upper and Lower, I believe Canada itself used to be often described as Upper Canada and Lower Canada.... is this true ?
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Re: vintage geography trivia

Postby Conor Dary » Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:07 pm

54-40 or fight!
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Re: vintage geography trivia

Postby rsb2 » Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:15 pm

From 1791 to 1840, "Canada" was Upper and Lower Canada, basically Ontario and Quebec, united as the "Province" of Canada in 1840.
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Re: vintage geography trivia

Postby Master Po » Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:04 pm

gh wrote:Yes, on this map Superior is Upper Lake.

So you now know that of the four remaining lakes, two have names that haven't changed. And that one of the four had two names, one of which stayed, the other of which migrated to another lake. And the name of the migrate-to lake disappeared.


OK, one correct w-a guess. I'll go for another guess, in the interest of finding out the real answers in due time...

Is it the case that the two lakes that have not changed names are Erie and Ontario?
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Re: vintage geography trivia

Postby rsb2 » Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:52 pm

Guessing that Huron / Erie haven't changed.
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Re: vintage geography trivia

Postby gh » Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:05 pm

Master Po wrote:...
Is it the case that the two lakes that have not changed names are Erie and Ontario?


You would be correct... and kinda logical in that as "civilization" arrived, it moved westward, so the the farther East the lake the more time it had to be set in stone.

So, what were Michigan and Huron called?
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Re: vintage geography trivia

Postby Conor Dary » Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:40 pm

Well if Superior is Upper, then my guess is Michigan was Lower..
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Re: vintage geography trivia

Postby mcgato » Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:42 pm

I'll guess that Huron was "Lower Lake", and Michigan was either "Michigan Huron" or "Huron Michigan." And that is just a guess based on the clues given.
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Re: vintage geography trivia

Postby gh » Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:02 pm

There was no Lower Lake: I said one of the two was correct, and we then tabbed Superior as Upper.
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Re: vintage geography trivia

Postby gh » Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:04 pm

yes, there was a lake known as either Michigan or Huron and it took one of the names for modern usage, and the other passed to a lake known in 1710 as.... ?
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Re: vintage geography trivia

Postby Jnathletics » Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:16 pm

The problem with this questions is it may turn out that the map was inaccurate. Just to confuse the issue. It appears that the French who explored the lakes in the 1600's had different names for them. 3 of the names are the similar to today with only two being different. ( one gh has stated as having it's current name.) There is even a map from 1688 by the French that shows some of the lakes with 3 different names. But by 1703 it appears the French had settled on 4 of the 5 current names with one of the 4 have a two word name, which uses one of gh's clues.

"one lake goes by two variants; one of them is the name of the lake today, the other is the name of another lake."


So, it appears the 1710 english map was out of date before it was made. :P
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Re: vintage geography trivia

Postby gh » Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:59 pm

i never said there was a 2-word name... I said one lake had two different names. As in, it was known as either Lake X or Lake Y.
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Re: vintage geography trivia

Postby gh » Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:11 am

since there are so many twists and turns to this, let me reset where we are

Superior = Upper Lake
Erie = Erie
Ontario = Ontario

We know that one of the two remaining lakes was known both as Lake Huron and Lake Michigan. It kept one of those names, and the other name moved to the other lake. Which one stayed the same, and which one moved? And what was the moved-to lake's name on the map in question.
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Re: vintage geography trivia

Postby mamo » Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:43 am

I think the Illinois river watershed surrounds much of the southwestern section of Lake Michigan. I think this lake may have been called Illinois back in the days of those intrepid French voyageurs.
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Re: vintage geography trivia

Postby gh » Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:13 am

correct.... Lake Michigan was Lake Illinois on this map (ergo, Lake Huron was your choice of Huron or Michigan)
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Re: vintage geography trivia

Postby Conor Dary » Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:36 am

So Lake Michigan was once called Lake Illinois. That is something I didn't know. I wonder why it changed.
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Re: vintage geography trivia

Postby gh » Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:37 am

perhaps because the Anglos had nothing to do with the naming (it was those Gallic pests!), and when their term came, they did it their way?
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Re: vintage geography trivia

Postby gh » Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:52 am

Looking at the same map, what were the Western (well defined) and Northern (a rough answer will do) borders of the area known as Florida?

Also, what (roughly) was the Eastern border for the chunk that didn't border the Atlantic. (hint: Jacksonville wasn't part of Florida! It was in Carolina)
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Re: vintage geography trivia

Postby gh » Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:14 am

sub-note for the nitpickers: Jacksonville wasn't part of anything in 1710, because it didn't exist. I should have more properly phrased that as "the spot of land where Jacksonville now stands"
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Re: vintage geography trivia

Postby mcgato » Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:21 am

Since what's now Jax wasn't part of Florida, I'm guessing that St. Augustine was part of Florida at that time. Thus the border should be a little north of that, and extend west to the Gulf of Mexico.

I am going to get one of these right. Maybe.
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Re: vintage geography trivia

Postby gh » Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:26 am

St. Augustine was indeed about the Northern/Eastern border of the Atlantic part of Florida, but it's not the answer to either question as a whole.

As for Western, what part of the Gulf?
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Re: vintage geography trivia

Postby mamo » Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:07 pm

I guess, back in the day, there were two Floridas: the familiar one that extended west to the Apalachicola River, and a West Florida that extended all the way to the Mississippi.
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Re: vintage geography trivia

Postby gh » Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:13 pm

No, there's just a single chunk of real estate all labeled as Florida.

the Mississippi is not the correct answer for the Western border.
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Re: vintage geography trivia

Postby gh » Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:11 am

OK, just to nudge things along, since trying to visualize this from previous clues perhaps not easy.

The Eastern border was of course the Atlantic for the main portion of Florida. At about 30º (between St. Augustine and Jacksonville of today) the border makes a left and does so for x miles before going north again, forming a border with Carolina. So, more specifically, what was the East/West border of Florida and Carolina?
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Re: vintage geography trivia

Postby Master Po » Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:46 am

gh wrote:OK, just to nudge things along, since trying to visualize this from previous clues perhaps not easy.

The Eastern border was of course the Atlantic for the main portion of Florida. At about 30º (between St. Augustine and Jacksonville of today) the border makes a left and does so for x miles before going north again, forming a border with Carolina. So, more specifically, what was the East/West border of Florida and Carolina?


OK, having guessed some of the Great Lakes' names without knowing much of anything, I'll make a guess here. It's not utterly uninformed, but is probably wrong nonetheless. Haven't see the map gh is referring to, but I recall seeing other early maps of North America in which "Florida" and "Carolina" were identified -- this area of course pre-Georgia and crossing over what is now Georgia. I can't think what's actually there on the ground to mark the boundary (seems like all lowland forests and swamps to me...), but it occurs to me that the boundary gh is referring to follows part of the route Hernando de Soto took in 15--whatever it was, when he was doing whatever he was doing (looking for a good indoor meet, probably). Maybe that route formed part of this boundary?
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Re: vintage geography trivia

Postby gh » Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:54 am

creative thinking! But no, don't think the de Soto routings had anything to do with it.
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Re: vintage geography trivia

Postby lonewolf » Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:51 pm

Howze bout Tombigee River/Mobile Bay as west limit of Florida?
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Re: vintage geography trivia

Postby gh » Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:07 pm

I don't think anybody realizes how large (massive) "Florida" was at the time.
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Re: vintage geography trivia

Postby gh » Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:08 pm

I hasten to add that I was among those who didn't realize, which was the whole purpose of my turning it into a trivia ("trivia"?) question after I saw the map.
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Re: vintage geography trivia

Postby lonewolf » Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:47 pm

Since the map predates the Louisiand Purchse and the border is not the Mississippi
River, the next logical geographic barrier is the Rio Grande River.
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Re: vintage geography trivia

Postby gh » Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:22 pm

Rio Grande is correct for the West.

Now what about the North and the East that isn't ocean-bound?
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