Something going on at Texas?


Main message board: for the discussion of topical track & field items only.

Re: Something going on at Texas?

Postby tandfman » Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:54 pm

You'll get no argument from me about that.
tandfman
 
Posts: 15043
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am

Re: Something going on at Texas?

Postby 18.99s » Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:39 pm

Pego wrote:I am amazed at all those "conspiracy" musings. UT did exactly what every other school would have done in today's atmosphere. No need for "ulterior motives."


They rightly did what they're supposed to do after they found out. My wondering is about what led to them finding out in 2012, considering when it happened and there's no criminal aspect to it.
18.99s
 
Posts: 704
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:28 am

Re: Something going on at Texas?

Postby guru » Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:27 pm

18.99s wrote: My wondering is about what led to them finding out in 2012...



That, is the $475,000 question...
guru
 
Posts: 10266
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Strava, racking KOMs https://tinyurl.com/qf2ntch

Re: Something going on at Texas?

Postby TrakFan » Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:34 pm

eldanielfire wrote:While I won't justify the relationships because college staff and athletes, being sympathetic you have to empathise that in sport it must be hard for coaches who are essentially moulding female bodies into physical perfection.


I think you're projecting, my friend. 99% of the individuals in such situations are not tempted or turned on by those they interact with. Based on your premise, it must also be "hard" for gynecologists because they’re seeing and touching things (vaginas and breasts) that are typically considered a turn-on for hetero males.
TrakFan
 
Posts: 1272
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Colorado Springs

Re: Something going on at Texas?

Postby gh » Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:05 pm

guru wrote:
18.99s wrote: My wondering is about what led to them finding out in 2012...



That, is the $475,000 question...


see story now on front page: BK lawyer says it was done to block her raise/contract extension.
gh
 
Posts: 46335
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Re: Something going on at Texas?

Postby 18.99s » Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:31 pm

guru wrote:
Pego wrote:I am amazed at all those "conspiracy" musings. UT did exactly what every other school would have done in today's atmosphere. No need for "ulterior motives."



Agree 100%. If, as 18.99 suggests, UT was "looking to get out of the expensive new contract", why would they offer it to her in the first place?


Left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. Or the left hand doesn't like what the right is doing.

The fact that she was offered or perhaps aggressively negotiated that big contract doesn't mean it was a unanimous decision in UT. It could have been a split decision by a committee, or a powerful individual made it a unilateral decision, and that was resented by others who felt adversely affected (suppose her higher salary meant lower raises for other coaches or forgoing equipment upgrades in a few other sports).
18.99s
 
Posts: 704
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:28 am

Re: Something going on at Texas?

Postby TxHottrack » Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:45 pm

It looks as if Allison Peter is transferring...she is no longer on the roster.
TxHottrack
 
Posts: 347
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:57 pm

Re: Something going on at Texas?

Postby lonewolf » Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:06 pm

I suspect insiders at UT have known about this for all these years. The whistle blower well could be someone who disapproved of the raise.. I cannot think why the athlete involved would be motivated to fess up.
lonewolf
 
Posts: 8816
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Indian Territory

Re: Something going on at Texas?

Postby Blues » Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:44 pm

If the involved athlete is now 30 as the latest home page story states, then Coach Kearney was about 45 and her athlete was 19 or 20 during their affair in 2002... I'd hoped that the involved athlete might have been a little older and more mature, but I guess it could have been worse.

Has it been stated for certain that it was actually the athlete herself who blew the whistle and contacted the university, as opposed to a family member or loved one that the athlete may have recently confided in? What if the athlete had recently heard a story of something similar happening and felt obligated to try to prevent it from happening again? I'm not suggesting that either of those scenarios are probably what transpired, but there could still be a valid explanation of why this happened now without it having to be solely about blocking the coach's new contract and raise. Coach Kearney's lawyer seems eager to get to the bottom of it though. I hope he doesn't accidentally stir up too much more dirt for his client while trying.
Blues
 
Posts: 1091
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 9:58 am

Re: Something going on at Texas?

Postby Blues » Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:32 am

At least for the time being, I'm still having a tough time sympathizing with her... From CNN, as linked to on the home page:

"Is it because I have a disability? Is it because I'm black? Is it because I'm female? Is it because I'm successful? Is it now because of my sexual preference?" Coach Bev Kearney asked on CNN's "Starting Point" Tuesday. "I had to finally come to embrace not knowing why, and I had to embrace it because the more you try to figure out why, the harder it is to forgive."
Blues
 
Posts: 1091
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 9:58 am

Re: Something going on at Texas?

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:52 am

Blues wrote:At least for the time being, I'm still having a tough time sympathizing with her... From CNN:

"Is it because I have a disability? Is it because I'm black? Is it because I'm female? Is it because I'm successful? Is it now because of my sexual preference?" Coach Bev Kearney asked on CNN's "Starting Point" Tuesday. "I had to finally come to embrace not knowing why, and I had to embrace it because the more you try to figure out why, the harder it is to forgive."

http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/08/us/texas- ... index.html

:shock:

It sounds like she's going to make this as ugly as possible. Not only is she throwing the kitchen sink at UT, but for good measure, she's throwing the oven, the refrigerator and the garbage disposal as well. Has she no shame? Jesus Christ!

Personally, I can't relate to eldanielfire's comments, but I don't know how old he is. Don't get me wrong, 20 years ago, when I was in my 20's and even early 30's, I did view some female college athletes as sexual beings, but not anymore. Today, I look them the same way I would look at my best friend's daughter, it just doesn't seem right.
jazzcyclist
 
Posts: 10860
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Something going on at Texas?

Postby Cooter Brown » Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:59 am

lonewolf wrote:I suspect insiders at UT have known about this for all these years.


Once this story came out a few days ago, I was told by someone that they were surprised this was the issue she was in trouble for since it wasn't a well kept secret over the last decade.
Cooter Brown
 
Posts: 2056
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Austin

Re: Something going on at Texas?

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:05 pm

Cooter Brown wrote:
lonewolf wrote:I suspect insiders at UT have known about this for all these years.


Once this story came out a few days ago, I was told by someone that they were surprised this was the issue she was in trouble for since it wasn't a well kept secret over the last decade.

But the only way that anyone can ever really confirm that a relationship is taking place between two people is if one of them talks, or evidence is discovered by a third party such as emails, text messages or a blue dress.

EDIT: What I don't understand is why did she resign if she feels she didn't do anything wrong? Shouldn't she have forced UT to fire her?
jazzcyclist
 
Posts: 10860
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Something going on at Texas?

Postby eldanielfire » Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:17 pm

fourjz wrote:
tandfman wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:In the wrong moment and circumstances anybody could break and cross a boundary without a second thought.

Some people undoubtedly could, but not everybody. Some people have a strong enough moral compass to resist temptations like that.

It still boils down to professionalism,coaching ethics,and individual moral ethics.It's flat out wrong !!! :x


This is horse rubbish and a poor comparison. A gynaecologist doesn't get or have need to be personally involved with their patients and are highly unlikely to see them for hours a day on a regular basis for years. I’d also think it was not professional if a gynaecologist ever needs to see women’s breasts as part of their job.

By the way, sexuality is not just breasts, bum and vagina and relationships and feelings are not simply physical desires that are turned on or off or controlled it you want to. Relationships, closeness, high intensity situations which are large parts of successful sporting relationships can stir hormones and emotions the people involved don't want and had no prior intention of having. This leads people into emotionally vulnerable states or moments of high passion where anything can regardless of prior values, morals or intentions.

By the way I'm not justifying such relationships, just because I think what is essentially a teacher/lecturer-student relationship is wrong that doesn't mean I can't empathise or sympathise with the situation. Especially as I consider realistically the nature of a high level coach athlete to be an emotionally intense one. Sometimes it shows itself differently, how many secretly athletes consider a coach as more of a parent their their own? Plenty! In other cases different personalities it is always going that comes out in a highly charged moment of intimacy. It will happen right or wrong. We are human and our need for relationships, sex and love is programmed into our DNA, literally as a species.
eldanielfire
 
Posts: 1321
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:07 am

Re: Something going on at Texas?

Postby 26mi235 » Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:33 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
Blues wrote:At least for the time being, I'm still having a tough time sympathizing with her... From CNN:

"Is it because I have a disability? Is it because I'm black? Is it because I'm female? Is it because I'm successful? Is it now because of my sexual preference?" Coach Bev Kearney asked on CNN's "Starting Point" Tuesday. "I had to finally come to embrace not knowing why, and I had to embrace it because the more you try to figure out why, the harder it is to forgive."

http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/08/us/texas- ... index.html

:shock:

It sounds like she's going to make this as ugly as possible. Not only is she throwing the kitchen sink at UT, but for good measure, she's throwing the oven, the refrigerator and the garbage disposal as well. Has she no shame? Jesus Christ!

Personally, I can't relate to eldanielfire's comments, but I don't know how old he is. Don't get me wrong, 20 years ago, when I was in my 20's and even early 30's, I did view some female college athletes as sexual beings, but not anymore. Today, I look them the same way I would look at my best friend's daughter, it just doesn't seem right.


I am not sure why the implications are quite so obvious. I suspect that this is maneuvering as regards a settlement. I think that it is a bit hard to not realize that someone that is in such a minority^4 [black, female in a male sports/head coach role, lesbian, disability]. The reports indicate that there was a report to the school by the individual involved in 'late October'; was it spurred by others, etc.

The timing is part of the picture here. My guess is there that she had a few strong enemies and that they decided this was the time to stop her rather than enshrine her and found a way to transform rumors in action, and given the climate change since Penn State (but also, the climate has been progressively changing in that direction from when I started teaching in the early '80s).
26mi235
 
Posts: 16335
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Madison, WI

Re: Something going on at Texas?

Postby Pego » Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:34 pm

eldanielfire wrote:I’d also think it was not professional if a gynaecologist ever needs to see women’s breasts as part of their job.


Say what :shock: ?
Pego
 
Posts: 10203
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: beyond help

Re: Something going on at Texas?

Postby eldanielfire » Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:21 pm

Pego wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:I’d also think it was not professional if a gynaecologist ever needs to see women’s breasts as part of their job.


Say what :shock: ?



They should be concerned with the vagina, Ovaries and Uterus only in their role. Breast vision shouldn't be a regular thing.
eldanielfire
 
Posts: 1321
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:07 am

Re: Something going on at Texas?

Postby Pego » Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:53 pm

eldanielfire wrote:
Pego wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:I’d also think it was not professional if a gynaecologist ever needs to see women’s breasts as part of their job.


Say what :shock: ?



They should be concerned with the vagina, Ovaries and Uterus only in their role. Breast vision shouldn't be a regular thing.


It has been since the time immemorial. As it should be.
Pego
 
Posts: 10203
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: beyond help

Re: Something going on at Texas?

Postby TrakFan » Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:32 pm

eldanielfire wrote:A gynaecologist doesn't get or have need to be personally involved with their patients and are highly unlikely to see them for hours a day on a regular basis for years. I’d also think it was not professional if a gynaecologist ever needs to see women’s breasts as part of their job.


Many of these individuals deliver the children of the women they see, and are very familiar with many aspects of their lives. FYI they don't just see breasts -- there's also palpation. It’s very routine. Ask your wife or girlfriend.

eldanielfire wrote:high intensity situations which are large parts of successful sporting relationships can stir hormones...


I'm confident 99% of the coaches out there don't get sexually-related hormone rushes watching their athletes perform. If anything, they're concerning themselves with technical aspects of their athlete's performance.

eldanielfire wrote:By the way I'm not justifying such relationships, just because I think what is essentially a teacher/lecturer-student relationship is wrong that doesn't mean I can't empathise or sympathise with the situation.


Sorry, I don't understand and share the feelings (empathy) of such inappropriate relationships, nor do I have sympathy for those in authority who receive a legal and professional smack-down because they broke those rules.

eldanielfire wrote: We are human and our need for relationships, sex and love is programmed into our DNA, literally as a species.


We also have self-conrtol and (should) make decisions based on personal/societal moraliy.
TrakFan
 
Posts: 1272
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Colorado Springs

Re: Something going on at Texas?

Postby JumboElliott » Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:41 pm

What is the head coach of a non-revenue generating sport doing making over two times what the governor of Texas is making?
JumboElliott
 
Posts: 2142
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:46 am

Re: Something going on at Texas?

Postby TxHottrack » Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:06 am

The governor of my state of Texas? You got jokes! Lol
I think it's best to keep the focus on track and field.
TxHottrack
 
Posts: 347
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:57 pm

Re: Something going on at Texas?

Postby JumboElliott » Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:13 am

I don't care who the governor is, he deserves to make more than the women's track coach at UT.
JumboElliott
 
Posts: 2142
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:46 am

Re: Something going on at Texas?

Postby TxHottrack » Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:26 am

JumboElliott wrote:I don't care who the governor is, he deserves to make more than the women's track coach at UT.


I can list a million reasons why the governor of Texas is not deserving of making more than former coach Beverly Kearney. As I stated earlier, I prefer to keep the focus on track and field.
TxHottrack
 
Posts: 347
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:57 pm

Re: Something going on at Texas?

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:09 am

JumboElliott wrote:What is the head coach of a non-revenue generating sport doing making over two times what the governor of Texas is making?

If we're comparing the salaries of non-revenue coaches at public universities to the salary of that state's governor, there are literally hundreds of coaches all over the country in a variety of sports who are overpaid, not just Bev Kearney. The two most egregious examples are probably women's basketball coaches Pat Summitt ($2.2 million) and Gino Auriemma ($1.8 million), with Vin Lananna being the most overpaid in track and field.
jazzcyclist
 
Posts: 10860
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Something going on at Texas?

Postby Marlow » Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:42 am

jazzcyclist wrote: Vin Lananna being the most overpaid in track and field.

a. No such thing :wink:
b. He's much more than just a 'coach'. He's Tracktown USA!!!
Marlow
 
Posts: 21126
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:00 pm
Location: Somewhere over the . . . hill

Re: Something going on at Texas?

Postby gh » Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:02 am

Another way of looking at it would be that given the revenue and attention he brings to both the University of Oregon and the city of Eugene (without him, the OT may not even be there) that Lananna is underpaid.

Perhaps the only track coach in the nation whose program pays its own way (relatively speaking)?
gh
 
Posts: 46335
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Re: Something going on at Texas?

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:12 am

gh wrote:Another way of looking at it would be that given the revenue and attention he brings to both the University of Oregon and the city of Eugene (without him, the OT may not even be there) that Lananna is underpaid.

Perhaps the only track coach in the nation whose program pays its own way (relatively speaking)?

According the Oregon's athletic department books, their track program loses money. Keep in mind that I'm not arguing that Lananna is overpaid, I'm just pointing out that based on JumboElliott's logic, he's overpaid since he makes more than Oregon's governor and he coaches a program that loses money.
jazzcyclist
 
Posts: 10860
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Something going on at Texas?

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:15 am

gh wrote:Another way of looking at it would be that given the revenue and attention he brings to both the University of Oregon and the city of Eugene (without him, the OT may not even be there) that Lananna is underpaid.

Perhaps the only track coach in the nation whose program pays its own way (relatively speaking)?


Helps having a billionaire as your best supporter. Who also helps keeps the football coach from going.
Conor Dary
 
Posts: 6297
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: कनोर दारी in Ronald MacDonald's Home Town, and once a Duck always a Duck.

Re: Something going on at Texas?

Postby gh » Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:15 am

that's why I said "relatively speaking"; the track operation itself undoubtedly loses money, but Lananna's work makes money elsewhere, for both university and city.
gh
 
Posts: 46335
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Re: Something going on at Texas?

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:18 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
gh wrote:Another way of looking at it would be that given the revenue and attention he brings to both the University of Oregon and the city of Eugene (without him, the OT may not even be there) that Lananna is underpaid.

Perhaps the only track coach in the nation whose program pays its own way (relatively speaking)?

According the Oregon's athletic department books, their track program loses money. Keep in mind that I'm not arguing that Lananna is overpaid, I'm just pointing out that based on JumboElliott's logic, he's overpaid since he makes more than Oregon's governor and he coaches a program that loses money.


Overpaid? Pocket change in Nikeland....as is Chip Kelly's salary.
Conor Dary
 
Posts: 6297
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: कनोर दारी in Ronald MacDonald's Home Town, and once a Duck always a Duck.

Re: Something going on at Texas?

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:21 am

Conor Dary wrote:Overpaid? Pocket change in Nikeland....as is Chip Kelly's salary.

Chip Kelly's salary is easy to justify since the football program makes money.
jazzcyclist
 
Posts: 10860
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Something going on at Texas?

Postby gh » Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:26 am

Conor Dary wrote:
gh wrote:Another way of looking at it would be that given the revenue and attention he brings to both the University of Oregon and the city of Eugene (without him, the OT may not even be there) that Lananna is underpaid.

Perhaps the only track coach in the nation whose program pays its own way (relatively speaking)?


Helps having a billionaire as your best supporter. Who also helps keeps the football coach from going.


Oh, absolutely (and on the football side, anybody who was surprised that Kelly stayed at home wasn't paying attention). But note how well Lananna's predecessor did in forging a working relationship with Knight and turning Eugene back into TrackTown.
gh
 
Posts: 46335
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Re: Something going on at Texas?

Postby guru » Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:31 am

gh wrote:Oh, absolutely (and on the football side, anybody who was surprised that Kelly stayed at home wasn't paying attention)...



Considering the looming NCAA sanctions, I'm shocked he didn't get out while the getting was good(ala P. Carroll).
guru
 
Posts: 10266
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Strava, racking KOMs https://tinyurl.com/qf2ntch

Re: Something going on at Texas?

Postby JumboElliott » Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:34 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
JumboElliott wrote:What is the head coach of a non-revenue generating sport doing making over two times what the governor of Texas is making?

If we're comparing the salaries of non-revenue coaches at public universities to the salary of that state's governor, there are literally hundreds of coaches all over the country in a variety of sports who are overpaid, not just Bev Kearney. The two most egregious examples are probably women's basketball coaches Pat Summitt ($2.2 million) and Gino Auriemma ($1.8 million), with Vin Lananna being the most overpaid in track and field.

UConn and Tennessee both turn (small) profits for women's basketball.
JumboElliott
 
Posts: 2142
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:46 am

Re: Something going on at Texas?

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:38 am

Yes, Lananna has done a wonderful job and knows how to play the game. The program had been going downhill for quite a while before he got there.

As for Kelly:

    What I believe now is that Kelly, who makes $3.5 million in guaranteed salary and has the blessing of Nike-infused infrastructure, knows his current gig is the best amateur coaching job in America.

    I now suspect he would only trade it for the dream gig of every little kid who grows up in New England -- head coach of the Patriots.

http://www.oregonlive.com/sports/oregon ... dance.html
Conor Dary
 
Posts: 6297
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: कनोर दारी in Ronald MacDonald's Home Town, and once a Duck always a Duck.

Re: Something going on at Texas?

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:42 am

guru wrote:
gh wrote:Oh, absolutely (and on the football side, anybody who was surprised that Kelly stayed at home wasn't paying attention)...



Considering the looming NCAA sanctions, I'm shocked he didn't get out while the getting was good(ala P. Carroll).

The one thing that Roger Goodell did that I agree with is enforcing NCAA sanctions on Terrell Pryor and Jim Tressell when the left college to avoid punishment. I wish he had done the same with Pete Carroll who left USC one step ahead of the NCAA mob. I wouldn't have a problem if in the future, the NFL formalized this symbiotic relationship and refused to accept coaches under these circumstances until they settled things with the NCAA.
jazzcyclist
 
Posts: 10860
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Something going on at Texas?

Postby TxHottrack » Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:42 am

Marlow wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote: Vin Lananna being the most overpaid in track and field.

a. No such thing :wink:
b. He's much more than just a 'coach'. He's Tracktown USA!!!


:lol:
TxHottrack
 
Posts: 347
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:57 pm

Re: Something going on at Texas?

Postby KevinM » Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:43 am

Conor Dary wrote:Yes, Lananna has done a wonderful job and knows how to play the game. The program had been going downhill for quite a while before he got there.



I'm not debating that Lananna's teams have been better than Smith's, but as I recall, Smith's teams were markedly better than the teams late in the Dellinger/Heinonen eras.
KevinM
 
Posts: 2651
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: Something going on at Texas?

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:54 am

KevinM wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:Yes, Lananna has done a wonderful job and knows how to play the game. The program had been going downhill for quite a while before he got there.



I'm not debating that Lananna's teams have been better than Smith's, but as I recall, Smith's teams were markedly better than the teams late in the Dellinger/Heinonen eras.


As I said the program had been in decline for quite a while.
Conor Dary
 
Posts: 6297
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: कनोर दारी in Ronald MacDonald's Home Town, and once a Duck always a Duck.

Re: Something going on at Texas?

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:15 am

JumboElliott wrote:UConn and Tennessee both turn (small) profits for women's basketball.

Not according to the latest figures I've seen.
jazzcyclist
 
Posts: 10860
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

PreviousNext

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests