WRs for Felix, U.S. women's 4x4....


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WRs for Felix, U.S. women's 4x4....

Postby gh » Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:46 am

This is a concept that has been roundly lambasted here before, but if the IAAF had gone ahead with a proposal to create a new set of "millennial WRs" (i.e., ones beginning with the change of centuries), there would have been two more WRs in 2012 than we officially saw.

Link to the list now on the front page (and always available in our Archive).

And no, let's not discuss when the "turning point" was. For purposes of this discussion, it was the 100-year period (the definition of a century) that started when years went from 19xx to 20xx.
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Re: WRs for Felix, U.S. women's 4x4....

Postby Marlow » Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:20 am

gh wrote:This is a concept that has been roundly lambasted here before, but . . .

The concept is great for a forum like this, where we 'know better', but it would have been a great disservice to our sport by pretending that

a. every 'old' world record is presumed dirty.
and
b. every 'new' record-holder is presumed clean.

We know of many instances where neither is true.
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Re: WRs for Felix, U.S. women's 4x4....

Postby gh » Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:28 am

If nothing else, this is an interesting statistical study, just as one would be of all left-handed throwers, or whatever. Lighten up and enjoy some harmless entertainment.
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Re: WRs for Felix, U.S. women's 4x4....

Postby Gabriella » Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:32 am

I think the idea of millennial WRs is, well, stupid. That point in time is purely symbolic and has no meaning in reality.

In some ways I'd like WR's to be removed completely and we go back to 'world bests' simply because of things like wind readings and conditions which have a massive affect on results. Of course, when someone runs the fastest 100m time ever recorded, it is exactly that, but it may not be the best 100m ever, if the next fastest time ever had a massive neagtive wind reading.

I guess we are one of the few sports that needs WRs. Or do we?
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Re: WRs for Felix, U.S. women's 4x4....

Postby Marlow » Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:03 am

gh wrote:Lighten up and enjoy some harmless entertainment.

hence my

Marlow wrote:The concept is great for a forum like this, where we 'know better'
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Re: WRs for Felix, U.S. women's 4x4....

Postby Fortius19 » Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:13 am

Glad to see Radcliffe got her 2:15 WR back! :D

Interesting stats, thanks!
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Re: WRs for Felix, U.S. women's 4x4....

Postby no one » Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:27 am

just USA and not track - a (very) brief review

Barry (*)73
Babe 60
Roger 61
Pete 4256
other Pete 44.2
Wilt 100
Eric 2105
Joe 66
Bill 11 (with team mates @ 9 of top 11)

Okay - back to regularly scheduled program
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Re: WRs for Felix, U.S. women's 4x4....

Postby aaronk » Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:58 am

Gabriella wrote:I think the idea of millennial WRs is, well, stupid. That point in time is purely symbolic and has no meaning in reality.

In some ways I'd like WR's to be removed completely and we go back to 'world bests' simply because of things like wind readings and conditions which have a massive affect on results. Of course, when someone runs the fastest 100m time ever recorded, it is exactly that, but it may not be the best 100m ever, if the next fastest time ever had a massive neagtive wind reading.

I guess we are one of the few sports that needs WRs. Or do we?


Your comment reminded me of the "fastest mile ever run"!!

Nope, not the 3:43.13 of El G!!
It's the 3:31.25 (?) of (??) from Australia many years ago (70's??).

Does anyone remember the details from that run??
I remember it was on a VERY STEEP downhill course in Australia!!
And I think I saw it in the pages of T&FN!!
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Re: WRs for Felix, U.S. women's 4x4....

Postby eldanielfire » Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:52 am

I'd like some acknowledgement of century records. No other sports is based around world record attempts. Nobody thinks Messi or Ronaldo are the best players ever, just of the moment.

We look at Olympic records (nice but meaningless), World records (which will eventually become fairly impossible to beat) and world leading (which is only used as a measure of form coming into championships). Of those WRs are most important but very flawed as new tracks, equipement, nutrition dependent. It would be nice if something was presented as AWESOME but relatively an indication of humanity today.

The fastest women this century would be special (especially with continued use) especially as the female records are mostly believed to be put out of sight by drug cheats, even the ones with little or no evidence of cheating . Alternatively just don't compare records from different surfaces like the silly compasision with dirt track, cinder and the rubber stuff we have today would be irrevelant like what we use with the new Javelin but peoples world records would still be broken and it would certainly help the popularity of track and field.
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Re: WRs for Felix, U.S. women's 4x4....

Postby Marlow » Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:34 am

eldanielfire wrote: No other sports is based around world record attempts.

Swimming?
Speed Skating?
Weight Lifting?
Rowing?

to name a few.
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Re: WRs for Felix, U.S. women's 4x4....

Postby unclezadok » Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:57 am

eldanielfire wrote:I'd like some acknowledgement of century records. No other sports is based around world record attempts. Nobody thinks Messi or Ronaldo are the best players ever, just of the moment.


There are those who do think Messi is the best ever, and they are not all from Barcelona or Argentina. But that's a topic for another thread (which may already exist).
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Re: WRs for Felix, U.S. women's 4x4....

Postby az2004 » Fri Jan 04, 2013 8:25 am

yes. go back and watch pele play...

the only way to stop him was to hurt him

the 1970 brasil team would have their way with the spain team

just like wilt in todays game from circa 1962 would have his way

no one could guard him, there was only one guy, who played at sf who had the right approach
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Re: WRs for Felix, U.S. women's 4x4....

Postby Marlow » Fri Jan 04, 2013 8:48 am

az2004 wrote:yes. go back and watch pele play...

I did.
az2004 wrote:the only way to stop him was to hurt him

Simply not true
az2004 wrote:the 1970 brasil team would have their way with the spain team

2012 Spain would be up 3-0 at half.
az2004 wrote:just like wilt in todays game from circa 1962 would have his way. no one could guard him, there was only one guy, who played at sf who had the right approach

Wilt would get his points, but his Warriors/76ers/Lakers would be killed by today's better teams.
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Re: WRs for Felix, U.S. women's 4x4....

Postby eldanielfire » Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:13 am

unclezadok wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:I'd like some acknowledgement of century records. No other sports is based around world record attempts. Nobody thinks Messi or Ronaldo are the best players ever, just of the moment.


There are those who do think Messi is the best ever, and they are not all from Barcelona or Argentina. But that's a topic for another thread (which may already exist).


At club level, nobody ever has a credible claim until they perform at the top level for contry. At that level Messi has been alright rather than brilliant. People said similt at the end of Zidane's career, however over time when it's all past people have returned to discussing it as between Pele and Maradona again.
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Re: WRs for Felix, U.S. women's 4x4....

Postby eldanielfire » Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:16 am

Marlow wrote:
eldanielfire wrote: No other sports is based around world record attempts.

Swimming?
Speed Skating?
Weight Lifting?
Rowing?

to name a few.


I should have spoken about big sports.However in Rowing not important at all as nice as it is. Partly because you are more likley to break a record in a Heat than the final. Did Redgrave break any records? Nobody cares there - he got 5 golds which makes him good enough for best ever in many peoples eyes, however in Track and Field no WR, no real consideration for best ever!
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Re: WRs for Felix, U.S. women's 4x4....

Postby Tuariki » Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:17 am

Marlow wrote:
az2004 wrote:just like wilt in todays game from circa 1962 would have his way. no one could guard him, there was only one guy, who played at sf who had the right approach

Wilt would get his points, but his Warriors/76ers/Lakers would be killed by today's better teams.

Actually, I doubt that Wilt would get his points in today's environment
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Re: WRs for Felix, U.S. women's 4x4....

Postby eldanielfire » Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:19 am

Marlow wrote:
gh wrote:This is a concept that has been roundly lambasted here before, but . . .

The concept is great for a forum like this, where we 'know better', but it would have been a great disservice to our sport by pretending that

a. every 'old' world record is presumed dirty.
and
b. every 'new' record-holder is presumed clean.

We know of many instances where neither is true.



Not quite right:

a. Every 'old' world record between 1970 and the mid 90's by dirty americans, Russians, East Germans and Chinese is dirty.

b. Every 'new' world record-holder not connected with Balco, China or Eastern Europe or a one or two season wonder is presumed clean
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Re: WRs for Felix, U.S. women's 4x4....

Postby eldanielfire » Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:25 am

Tuariki wrote:
Marlow wrote:
az2004 wrote:just like wilt in todays game from circa 1962 would have his way. no one could guard him, there was only one guy, who played at sf who had the right approach

Wilt would get his points, but his Warriors/76ers/Lakers would be killed by today's better teams.

Actually, I doubt that Wilt would get his points in today's environment


Not even against the Raptors or Bobcats?

A bit unfair to say that anyway, the 1960's Celtics had argueable the greatest defender in the history of the game and a stupidly brillant team, the 1960's Lakers were awesome as well and Wilt acrried a nothing 76'ers to the NBA title. Also the likes of Shaq and Yao Ming have proven some giant players at their peak still absolutely run riot over todays NBA and few would say either of those are on the level of Wilt in terms of scoring.
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Re: WRs for Felix, U.S. women's 4x4....

Postby Tuariki » Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:29 am

eldanielfire wrote:
Tuariki wrote:
Marlow wrote:
az2004 wrote:just like wilt in todays game from circa 1962 would have his way. no one could guard him, there was only one guy, who played at sf who had the right approach

Wilt would get his points, but his Warriors/76ers/Lakers would be killed by today's better teams.

Actually, I doubt that Wilt would get his points in today's environment


Not even against the Raptors or Bobcats?

A bit unfair to say that anyway, the 1960's Celtics had argueable the greatest defender in the history of the game and a stupidly brillant team, the 1960's Lakers were awesome as well and Wilt acrried a nothing 76'ers to the NBA title. Also the likes of Shaq and Yao Ming have proven some giant players at their peak still absolutely run riot over todays NBA and few would say either of those are on the level of Wilt in terms of scoring.

While you are correct, you are not addressing the issue. We are not trying to compare Wilt with his ability to score on and over the players of the 1960's who were significantly less capable on any scale compared to today's players. We are considering Wilt's potential to score on the players of this century.
In the 1960's Wilt, as a physical specimen, was far and way in front of other players. With the size, speed and skill of today's players, the 2012 equivalent of Wilt would need to be about Yao Ming's height, Shaq's build and Le Bron's skilll abilities to have any chance of dominating the way Wilt did.
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Re: WRs for Felix, U.S. women's 4x4....

Postby CookyMonzta » Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:40 pm

eldanielfire wrote:
Marlow wrote:
gh wrote:This is a concept that has been roundly lambasted here before, but . . .

The concept is great for a forum like this, where we 'know better', but it would have been a great disservice to our sport by pretending that

a. every 'old' world record is presumed dirty.
and
b. every 'new' record-holder is presumed clean.

We know of many instances where neither is true.



Not quite right:

a. Every 'old' world record between 1970 and the mid 90's by dirty americans, Russians, East Germans and Chinese is dirty.

b. Every 'new' world record-holder not connected with Balco, China or Eastern Europe or a one or two season wonder is presumed clean

And it would still be an argument mired in dispute. If there is a way for someone to get around the tests, you can bet your @$$ that someone has already found it. it took a federal raid to find out that someone invented THG 3 or 4 years ago. Or did Patrick Arnold have his product out there even before 1999?
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Re: WRs for Felix, U.S. women's 4x4....

Postby Pego » Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:03 pm

az2004 wrote:the 1970 brasil team would have their way with the spain team


1958 and '62 teams were quite a bit better than in 1970. The 1958 team was arguably the best ever.
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Re: WRs for Felix, U.S. women's 4x4....

Postby Marlow » Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:34 pm

Pego wrote:The 1958 team was arguably the best ever.

Time-for-time perhaps. Today's teams are MUCH more technically skilled and faster.
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Re: WRs for Felix, U.S. women's 4x4....

Postby odelltrclan » Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:09 pm

Gabriella wrote:I think the idea of millennial WRs is, well, stupid. That point in time is purely symbolic and has no meaning in reality.

In some ways I'd like WR's to be removed completely and we go back to 'world bests' simply because of things like wind readings and conditions which have a massive affect on results. Of course, when someone runs the fastest 100m time ever recorded, it is exactly that, but it may not be the best 100m ever, if the next fastest time ever had a massive neagtive wind reading.

I guess we are one of the few sports that needs WRs. Or do we?


This whole conversation epitomizes what is wrong with track. I agree with everything you say yet, that is the problem with track. To the general masses, they are looking for entertainment and it is hard to sell entertainment with 30 year old records. When we start talking about the differences between wind, altitude, track surfaces, etc., well, the potential fans already left the room. No one can measure one 50 yard touchdown with another, just that someone scored. Yet track athletes performances are measured for all eternity with the ghosts of years past.
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Re: WRs for Felix, U.S. women's 4x4....

Postby Pego » Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:24 pm

Marlow wrote:
Pego wrote:The 1958 team was arguably the best ever.

Time-for-time perhaps. Today's teams are MUCH more technically skilled and faster.


Faster perhaps. More technical? No way.
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Re: WRs for Felix, U.S. women's 4x4....

Postby no one » Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:02 am

... Side note on Wilt's 100 pt game. He shot 28/32 free throws and had 25 rebounds in the same game (100 pter). His lifetime free throw percentage was 51%, putting the 28/32 in some perspective. Busy man that game.
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Re: WRs for Felix, U.S. women's 4x4....

Postby TN1965 » Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:58 am

Marlow wrote:
eldanielfire wrote: No other sports is based around world record attempts.

Swimming?
Speed Skating?
Weight Lifting?
Rowing?

to name a few.


Swimming records cannot be compared across time periods because of the high tech swim suits, and speed skating records cannot be compared because of clap skates. They are, however, contested under "controlled" environment, so no need to worry about the wind or heat affecting the records.

Interestingly enough, I don't think cross country skiing has official world records, does it?
No one cares what Bjorn Daehile's "records" were. All that matters is the medals he won.
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Re: WRs for Felix, U.S. women's 4x4....

Postby Marlow » Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:04 pm

TN1965 wrote:Swimming records cannot be compared across time periods because of the high tech swim suits, and speed skating records cannot be compared because of clap skates.

And you don't think T&F records have been affected by the evolution of running tracks and spikes and fiberglass poles and Fosbury Flops and spin SPs, etc., etc.??!!
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Re: WRs for Felix, U.S. women's 4x4....

Postby TN1965 » Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:24 pm

Marlow wrote:
TN1965 wrote:Swimming records cannot be compared across time periods because of the high tech swim suits, and speed skating records cannot be compared because of clap skates.

And you don't think T&F records have been affected by the evolution of running tracks and spikes and fiberglass poles and Fosbury Flops and spin SPs, etc., etc.??!!


They have been affected, but by MUCH lesser degree.
Besides, Fosbury Flops and spin SPs are not advancement in equipments.
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Re: WRs for Felix, U.S. women's 4x4....

Postby Tuariki » Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:26 pm

Pego wrote:
Marlow wrote:
Pego wrote:The 1958 team was arguably the best ever.

Time-for-time perhaps. Today's teams are MUCH more technically skilled and faster.


Faster perhaps. More technical? No way.

Obviously Pego thinks that football (soccer) is the only sport where athletes have not improved technically. The technical abilities of today's athletes in those sports that score technical excellence - gymnastics, diving, figure skating,ice dancing are light years in advance of what their counterparts were doing in the 50's and 60's. Even though technical skill is not measured the same goes for basketball, volleyball,wrestling, field hockey and ice hockey.

And sorry, Pego, but Marlow is correct about football. The technical skills of today's players are substantially greater than the skills from Pele's era. What I would possibly concede is that Pele's skills were substantially greater than those of his era than Messi's for this era. But skill-wise, Messi would run rings around Pele.
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Re: WRs for Felix, U.S. women's 4x4....

Postby eldanielfire » Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:22 am

Tuariki wrote:
Pego wrote:
Marlow wrote:
Pego wrote:The 1958 team was arguably the best ever.

Time-for-time perhaps. Today's teams are MUCH more technically skilled and faster.


Faster perhaps. More technical? No way.

Obviously Pego thinks that football (soccer) is the only sport where athletes have not improved technically. The technical abilities of today's athletes in those sports that score technical excellence - gymnastics, diving, figure skating,ice dancing are light years in advance of what their counterparts were doing in the 50's and 60's. Even though technical skill is not measured the same goes for basketball, volleyball,wrestling, field hockey and ice hockey.


Is that true for Basketball. Coaches have often spoken about the "Michael Jordan effect" where players today can jump and dunk better, are better athletes but are weaker in fundamentals and defence as well as the fact rules have changed to aid points scoring. The 80's Basketball players might well be seen as technically better as defence was more of a challenge and their fundamentals were stronger.

And sorry, Pego, but Marlow is correct about football. The technical skills of today's players are substantially greater than the skills from Pele's era. What I would possibly concede is that Pele's skills were substantially greater than those of his era than Messi's for this era. But skill-wise, Messi would run rings around Pele.


This isn't true for all countries, English players have improved as athletes but declined in their basics because there are very few centres for building technical skills and premier league clubs train as more internationals than locals. Also english school kids when given a ball will just play a game which ensures the strongest and fastest dominate while in Brazil, they'll not play a mtach but do all sorts of skill based activities.

Also basical defending skills have declined globally IMO. However in many countrries I agree footballers are technically better.
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Re: WRs for Felix, U.S. women's 4x4....

Postby Pego » Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:30 am

Tuariki wrote:And sorry, Pego, but Marlow is correct about football. The technical skills of today's players are substantially greater than the skills from Pele's era. What I would possibly concede is that Pele's skills were substantially greater than those of his era than Messi's for this era. But skill-wise, Messi would run rings around Pele


Obviously, you and Marlow have every right to believe what you believe, but it just is not so. Today's football players may be more athletic overall, the game is more physical, but IT IS LESS PRETTY. Why? The technical skills of the guys from the past were great. Not only players everybody quotes (Pelè, Eusebio, Beckenbauer, DiStefano), but many others. Jokl, that probably nobody on this board ever heard of was a ball wizard and did it in high speed. Would he excel today against physical play? I don't know, but to watch him play was pure pleasure. Sir Stanley Matthews? His dribble/fake was amazing. Show me one player today with header skills in air of Kocsis. Puskás? He may have seemed slow, but was constantly in motion, his passing precise, getting the ball through miniscule holes.

Please, leave other sports out of this. What has gymnastics got to do with football? Yes, today (especially female) gymnasts are incredible acrobats, it is not even the same sport that Latynina, Kéleti or Čáslavská practiced half a century and more ago.
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Re: WRs for Felix, U.S. women's 4x4....

Postby Tuariki » Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:06 am

Pego wrote:Please, leave other sports out of this. What has gymnastics got to do with football? Yes, today (especially female) gymnasts are incredible acrobats, it is not even the same sport that Latynina, Kéleti or Čáslavská practiced half a century and more ago.

Get a life mate. Gymnastics has as much do with this thread - WR Felix 4 x 400m - as football.

Stanley Matthews, Pele, Eusebio, Beckenbauer were all great players and highly skilled. However, your position is best summed up by your own words:

"He may have seemed slow......"

And that is the difference between today's best players such as Messi and those of yesteryear. It is a much faster game today requiring much greater skill to achieve the same ball control and skills than 50 years ago. Just like all other sports.

Using another example. In New Zealand we tend to revere the legendary skills and ability of Sir Colin Meads from the 1960's - considered by many as the greatest rugby player in history. However,in today's rugby environment the Colin Meads of the 1960's would be eaten alive. Sport has moved on and the players of today are bigger, faster and more skilled - football is no exception; and neither is Track and Field.
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Re: WRs for Felix, U.S. women's 4x4....

Postby pakillo » Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:23 am

Interesting stats but the idea is totally stupid...
Argument that WRs will bring attention to the sport is wrong. Those who see only WRs as entertainment while watching TandF are going to forget that WR in three days anyway.

Btw, this year we have 800m WR 30th anniversary :)
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Re: WRs for Felix, U.S. women's 4x4....

Postby eldanielfire » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:05 am

Tuariki wrote:
Using another example. In New Zealand we tend to revere the legendary skills and ability of Sir Colin Meads from the 1960's - considered by many as the greatest rugby player in history. However,in today's rugby environment the Colin Meads of the 1960's would be eaten alive. Sport has moved on and the players of today are bigger, faster and more skilled - football is no exception; and neither is Track and Field.


Eh? Many Rugby players are less skilled than in the 1970's. Before skills were a requirement. Now as many players are picked on physical abilities because coaches believe skills can be choached but size can not. This is partly true but coaches forget player scan bul up and those with poor skills have veyr limited improvement. For example there are a huge numbe rof scrum halfs now who are quick but clueless when pressure is on and can only pass off one hand withone a "step" first in their weaker direction killing the fast ball. All this has led to a decline in skills in the past 15 years and more focus on "bosh" and breaking the gainline instead. They are learning now, forwards are smaller now than 5 years ago imply coaches realising the importance of skills.

As for football Wayne Rooney is a skillful player, but technically his first touch is often awful and he needs two or three touches to get control, losing time and space. The game is faster due to fitness but it's not technically better except in that any good player is almost solely concentrated at the big few clubs rather than spread through a wide variety of clubs and leagues.
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Re: WRs for Felix, U.S. women's 4x4....

Postby Marlow » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:16 am

Pego wrote:The technical skills of the guys from the past were great.

Get off my lawn, you gol-durn whipper-snappers! Why, back in MY day, we had to walk 10 miles to school in 6-foot deep snow, uphill BOTH WAYS!!

[and I thought I was old and stuck in my ways! :wink: :wink: :wink: ]
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Re: WRs for Felix, U.S. women's 4x4....

Postby Pego » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:51 am

Tuariki wrote:Get a life mate. Gymnastics has as much do with this thread


I have a life, mate, thank you very much. I was not referring to the thread but to football and you know it.

Tuariki wrote:And that is the difference between today's best players such as Messi and those of yesteryear. It is a much faster game today requiring much greater skill to achieve the same ball control and skills than 50 years ago.


Messi is not faster than many guys I remember playing in those days.

Marlow wrote:Why, back in MY day, we had to walk 10 miles to school


LMAO, Mrs Pego had to, 2 miles only, but she did :D .
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Re: WRs for Felix, U.S. women's 4x4....

Postby Marlow » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:55 am

Pego wrote:LMAO, Mrs Pego had to, 2 miles only, but she did :D .

I walked to school from kindergarten (OK, my mom walked with me till the school was in sight) through college. At most it was a mile away (Jr. High) and was never a problem. Today a parent would be turned into Social Services for that (d'oh, I just went into Geezer Mode!)
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Re: WRs for Felix, U.S. women's 4x4....

Postby fourjz » Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:12 pm

What happened to this thread ? Thought it was about WRs for Felix,U.S. womens 4x4 ?? :roll:
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Re: WRs for Felix, U.S. women's 4x4....

Postby Marlow » Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:15 pm

fourjz wrote:What happened to this thread ? Thought it was about WRs for Felix,U.S. womens 4x4 ?? :roll:

That is sooo 3 days ago . . . we evolve . . . :twisted:
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Re: WRs for Felix, U.S. women's 4x4....

Postby fourjz » Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:21 pm

Marlow wrote:
fourjz wrote:What happened to this thread ? Thought it was about WRs for Felix,U.S. womens 4x4 ?? :roll:

That is sooo 3 days ago . . . we evolve . . . :twisted:

Ha ha Ha !! Ok. :shock:
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