vintage geography trivia

[gh]

so was perusing my alumni magazine and they had a page that reproed a famed map of North America from 1710.

The Great Lakes are there, the boundaries looking very well drawn.

But then there's the naming!

two of the lakes have the same names as they do today

one lake goes by two variants; one of them is the name of the lake today, the other is the name of another lake.

two of the lakes have names that no longer exist (or are in common use, that's for sure).

So, fill in the blanks with what they're called on the map (west to east)

Superior =
Michigan =
Huron =
Erie =
Ontario =


???

[gm]

I know Superior was also called Gitcheegoomi (spelling definitely not right!) at some point.

[gh]

""By the shores of Gitchee Gumee, By the shining Big-Sea-Water, Stood the wigwam of Nokomis, Daughter of the Moon, Nokomis. Dark behind it rose the forest...."

Longfellow aside, on this map everything is in Anglo terminology.

[Conor Dary]

The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down
of the big lake they call "Gitche Gumee."
"Superior," they said, "never gives up her dead
when the gales of November come early!"

[Marlow]

The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down
of the big lake they call "Gitche Gumee."
"Superior," they said, "never gives up her dead
when the gales of November come early!"

I spent all my summers on Lake Erie and remember something about two of them being called Upper Lake and Lower Lake. Ontario and Erie?

[Jnathletics]

I should know this ?!?!?! My family took a trip to Mackinaw two years ago and I think I've seen the map you are talking about. In the imortal words of Charlie Brown, "Ughhhhh"

"Kitchi-Gummi" is an indian name for Superior, and it appears that GH is looking for the English names. But he confuses us with listing 7 lakes in his clues?!?!?

My guesses would have to be

Superior = sea lake
Michigan = Michigan
Huron = Iroquis
Erie = Ontario
Ontario = Upper lake

Know I have to go look this up

If it helps someone, I got none right?!?!?

[gh]

.....
I spent all my summers on Lake Erie and remember something about two of them being called Upper Lake and Lower Lake. Ontario and Erie?

I'm guessing that's a simple function of physical geography: Erie is much higher than Ontario and drops over Niagara Falls, so calling those upper and lower would make sense as a localism.

Those names not correct for either.... but one is correct for another!

[Master Po]

OK, so I'll guess that at one point Lake Superior was Upper Lake. (By the way, I have no idea what's correct, but am interested in finding out the correct answers.)

[gh]

Yes, on this map Superior is Upper Lake.

So you now know that of the four remaining lakes, two have names that haven't changed. And that one of the four had two names, one of which stayed, the other of which migrated to another lake. And the name of the migrate-to lake disappeared.

[dukehjsteve]

Speaking of Upper and Lower, I believe Canada itself used to be often described as Upper Canada and Lower Canada.... is this true ?

[Conor Dary]

54-40 or fight!

[rsb2]

From 1791 to 1840, "Canada" was Upper and Lower Canada, basically Ontario and Quebec, united as the "Province" of Canada in 1840.

[Master Po]

Yes, on this map Superior is Upper Lake.

So you now know that of the four remaining lakes, two have names that haven't changed. And that one of the four had two names, one of which stayed, the other of which migrated to another lake. And the name of the migrate-to lake disappeared.

OK, one correct w-a guess. I'll go for another guess, in the interest of finding out the real answers in due time...

Is it the case that the two lakes that have not changed names are Erie and Ontario?

[rsb2]

Guessing that Huron / Erie haven't changed.

[gh]

...
Is it the case that the two lakes that have not changed names are Erie and Ontario?

You would be correct... and kinda logical in that as "civilization" arrived, it moved westward, so the the farther East the lake the more time it had to be set in stone.

So, what were Michigan and Huron called?

[Conor Dary]

Well if Superior is Upper, then my guess is Michigan was Lower..

[mcgato]

I'll guess that Huron was "Lower Lake", and Michigan was either "Michigan Huron" or "Huron Michigan." And that is just a guess based on the clues given.

[gh]

There was no Lower Lake: I said one of the two was correct, and we then tabbed Superior as Upper.

[gh]

yes, there was a lake known as either Michigan or Huron and it took one of the names for modern usage, and the other passed to a lake known in 1710 as.... ?

[Jnathletics]

The problem with this questions is it may turn out that the map was inaccurate. Just to confuse the issue. It appears that the French who explored the lakes in the 1600's had different names for them. 3 of the names are the similar to today with only two being different. ( one gh has stated as having it's current name.) There is even a map from 1688 by the French that shows some of the lakes with 3 different names. But by 1703 it appears the French had settled on 4 of the 5 current names with one of the 4 have a two word name, which uses one of gh's clues.

"one lake goes by two variants; one of them is the name of the lake today, the other is the name of another lake."

So, it appears the 1710 english map was out of date before it was made.

[gh]

i never said there was a 2-word name... I said one lake had two different names. As in, it was known as either Lake X or Lake Y.

[gh]

since there are so many twists and turns to this, let me reset where we are

Superior = Upper Lake
Erie = Erie
Ontario = Ontario

We know that one of the two remaining lakes was known both as Lake Huron and Lake Michigan. It kept one of those names, and the other name moved to the other lake. Which one stayed the same, and which one moved? And what was the moved-to lake's name on the map in question.

[mamo]

I think the Illinois river watershed surrounds much of the southwestern section of Lake Michigan. I think this lake may have been called Illinois back in the days of those intrepid French voyageurs.

[gh]

correct.... Lake Michigan was Lake Illinois on this map (ergo, Lake Huron was your choice of Huron or Michigan)

[Conor Dary]

So Lake Michigan was once called Lake Illinois. That is something I didn't know. I wonder why it changed.

[gh]

perhaps because the Anglos had nothing to do with the naming (it was those Gallic pests!), and when their term came, they did it their way?

[gh]

Looking at the same map, what were the Western (well defined) and Northern (a rough answer will do) borders of the area known as Florida?

Also, what (roughly) was the Eastern border for the chunk that didn't border the Atlantic. (hint: Jacksonville wasn't part of Florida! It was in Carolina)

[gh]

sub-note for the nitpickers: Jacksonville wasn't part of anything in 1710, because it didn't exist. I should have more properly phrased that as "the spot of land where Jacksonville now stands"

[mcgato]

Since what's now Jax wasn't part of Florida, I'm guessing that St. Augustine was part of Florida at that time. Thus the border should be a little north of that, and extend west to the Gulf of Mexico.

I am going to get one of these right. Maybe.

[gh]

St. Augustine was indeed about the Northern/Eastern border of the Atlantic part of Florida, but it's not the answer to either question as a whole.

As for Western, what part of the Gulf?

[mamo]

I guess, back in the day, there were two Floridas: the familiar one that extended west to the Apalachicola River, and a West Florida that extended all the way to the Mississippi.

[gh]

No, there's just a single chunk of real estate all labeled as Florida.

the Mississippi is not the correct answer for the Western border.

[gh]

OK, just to nudge things along, since trying to visualize this from previous clues perhaps not easy.

The Eastern border was of course the Atlantic for the main portion of Florida. At about 30º (between St. Augustine and Jacksonville of today) the border makes a left and does so for x miles before going north again, forming a border with Carolina. So, more specifically, what was the East/West border of Florida and Carolina?

[Master Po]

OK, just to nudge things along, since trying to visualize this from previous clues perhaps not easy.

The Eastern border was of course the Atlantic for the main portion of Florida. At about 30º (between St. Augustine and Jacksonville of today) the border makes a left and does so for x miles before going north again, forming a border with Carolina. So, more specifically, what was the East/West border of Florida and Carolina?

OK, having guessed some of the Great Lakes' names without knowing much of anything, I'll make a guess here. It's not utterly uninformed, but is probably wrong nonetheless. Haven't see the map gh is referring to, but I recall seeing other early maps of North America in which "Florida" and "Carolina" were identified -- this area of course pre-Georgia and crossing over what is now Georgia. I can't think what's actually there on the ground to mark the boundary (seems like all lowland forests and swamps to me...), but it occurs to me that the boundary gh is referring to follows part of the route Hernando de Soto took in 15--whatever it was, when he was doing whatever he was doing (looking for a good indoor meet, probably). Maybe that route formed part of this boundary?

[gh]

creative thinking! But no, don't think the de Soto routings had anything to do with it.