Bowermans


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Bowermans

Postby Marlow » Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:35 pm

No love for T&F's Heismans?

http://www.thebowerman.org/news/cam-lev ... e-bowerman

Congrats Cam Levins and Kimberlyn Duncan.
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Re: Bowermans

Postby gh » Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:06 pm

Perhaps just a tad hard to get excited about an award based on a season that officially ended 6.5 months ago. We're far closer to the start of the '13 season than we are to the end of the '12 (in a collegiate sense).
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Re: Bowermans

Postby Marlow » Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:22 pm

gh wrote:Perhaps just a tad hard to get excited about an award based on a season that officially ended 6.5 months ago. We're far closer to the start of the '13 season than we are to the end of the '12 (in a collegiate sense).

Yeahbut . . . this is OUR award! If we don't think much of it, who the heck should?!
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Re: Bowermans

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:46 pm

gh wrote:Perhaps just a tad hard to get excited about an award based on a season that officially ended 6.5 months ago. We're far closer to the start of the '13 season than we are to the end of the '12 (in a collegiate sense).

I agree with you. Do you have idea what's the rationale for the long wait? Anyway

Congratulations Kim

Geaux Tigers!
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Re: Bowermans

Postby gh » Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:49 pm

They like to make it the centerpiece of teh USTFCCCA Convention.

I've been lobbying for them to do it at the USATF Champs, which while not an affair of their organizing, does bring "all" the relevant people together.

Think how well it would have played at the Trials this year during one of the off-days.
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Re: Bowermans

Postby polevaultpower » Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:09 pm

Congratulations to the winners!

I agree with gh on the timing of it. Plus having it so late makes it hard to view the individuals' merit based solely on accomplishments during the collegiate season, especially in an Olympic year. The voting was done months ago, but the casual fan might not fully appreciate the criteria for the awards and feel that one athlete or another would have been a better pick.
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Re: Bowermans

Postby gh » Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:53 pm

yeah, as one irate e-mailer already railed at me, "how could Brigetta Barrett's Olympic silver not get her the win?!!!"

The answer, of course, is that that the criteria are (as I think they should be, the timing of the award notwithstanding) that the collegiate season ends with the NCAA meet.
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Re: Bowermans

Postby gh » Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:55 pm

just wondering... is the plural of Bowerman really "Bowermans" or should it be "Bowermen" ? :twisted:
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Re: Bowermans

Postby j-a-m » Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:13 am

No offense to the winner on the men's side, but I have no idea how you can pick his frequently achieved double over the truly historic double achieved by Andrew Riley.
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Re: Bowermans

Postby ATK » Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:42 am

Are NCAA DII and DIII athletes be eligible for the Bowerman? And if so why have none been at least put on the early watch list?
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Re: Bowermans

Postby Mighty Favog » Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:14 am

gh wrote:yeah, as one irate e-mailer already railed at me, "how could Brigetta Barrett's Olympic silver not get her the win?!!!"

The answer, of course, is that that the criteria are (as I think they should be, the timing of the award notwithstanding) that the collegiate season ends with the NCAA meet.
Even if I had wanted to, I could not consider Barrett's Olympic medal in my vote...because the ballots were due before the Olympics began.

It's an awards show, which means the emphasis is on the show. As with all of them this is merely a vehicle for self-promotion. The problem with doing the show at the USA Championships is that 1/3 of this year's nominees were busy in Calgary that week. Finding a time when US, Canadian, Jamaican and Kenyan athletes are all available is more easily said than done. TFN should understand the timing issue given that its HS All-Americans are announced when many of those athletes are studying for a college exam.

What I think could be done at the awards show is to unveil the watch list for the upcoming season, effectively kicking off the next year of college track self-promotion via the Bowerman Award.
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Re: Bowermans

Postby polevaultpower » Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:00 am

ATK wrote:Are NCAA DII and DIII athletes be eligible for the Bowerman? And if so why have none been at least put on the early watch list?


Yes they are eligible.

The early watch lists have not even been released yet, as far as I know. Do you have anyone you'd like to nominate? I'm sure the committee would love suggestions of smaller school athletes to keep an eye on, they are easier to lose track of.
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Re: Bowermans

Postby gh » Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:07 am

Mighty Favog wrote:... The problem with doing the show at the USA Championships is that 1/3 of this year's nominees were busy in Calgary that week. ....


Actually, the Canadian meet coincided with the second weekend of the OT, not the first (Theisen was in Eugene watching Eaton set the WR). And the Canadian meet is usually in July, so this year was a total anomaly in that regard.

Having said that, in normal times, USATF tends to coincide with the Jamaican meet.

But I don't think that another nation's nationals should be any reason not to present the awards when they'd have the most impact, which I think is while the proverbial iron is hot.
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Re: Bowermans

Postby tandfman » Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:37 am

I believe in 2013, both the Canadian and the Jamaican national championships will coincide with USATF's championships.
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Re: Bowermans

Postby Marlow » Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:07 am

gh wrote:just wondering... is the plural of Bowerman really "Bowermans" or should it be "Bowermen" ? :twisted:

gh, you un-PC boor - we all know it should be the Bowerpeople! :wink:
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Re: Bowermans

Postby ATK » Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:43 am

polevaultpower wrote:
ATK wrote:Are NCAA DII and DIII athletes be eligible for the Bowerman? And if so why have none been at least put on the early watch list?


Yes they are eligible.

The early watch lists have not even been released yet, as far as I know. Do you have anyone you'd like to nominate? I'm sure the committee would love suggestions of smaller school athletes to keep an eye on, they are easier to lose track of.

Ok, I meant the previous watch lists from the past 4 years. I dont have anyone in mind i would like to nominate, just curious.
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Re: Bowermans

Postby dj » Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:17 am

ATK wrote:
polevaultpower wrote:
ATK wrote:Are NCAA DII and DIII athletes be eligible for the Bowerman? And if so why have none been at least put on the early watch list?


Ok, I meant the previous watch lists from the past 4 years. I dont have anyone in mind i would like to nominate, just curious.


They have been. I think if you go back you will always find at least one person on the "Others Mentioned" list, if not the main list. I think USTFCCCA has added different divisions of Div II, Div III and NAIA over the years, so it may be that not all divisions have been represented each year.
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Re: Bowermans

Postby JumboElliott » Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:33 pm

I lost interest when Sheila Reid wasn't even a finalist in 2011 after winning an unprecedented double, yet Tina Sutej who didn't even win her event at NCAAs was.

Also, I thought that Donn Cabral should have been a finalist.
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Re: Bowermans

Postby ExCoastRanger » Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:48 pm

This really is waaay too late after the season to be interesting at all.
Probably like many fans, I read the names of the winners, tried to remember exactly what they did to deserve it over other worthy candidates, and almost came up blank. Of course I had a hard time recalling many of the other worthy candidates too. The article reminded me what great seasons the winners had, but the context was long gone.

Announce the winners at the end of the season. Capitalize on whatever momentum there is after the NCAAs. Then have the banquet later, whenever you can get everybody in the same room.
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Re: Bowermans

Postby Conor Dary » Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:45 am

ExCoastRanger wrote:This really is waaay too late after the season to be interesting at all.


Well anything would be better than the status quo. Until this thread I didn't even know this award existed or at least didn't give it much thought. And I met Bowerman.
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Re: Bowermans

Postby bruce3404 » Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:52 am

While Duncan had a great season, I disagree with her selection and would have given the award to Theisen. Six multis titles in four seasons eclipses all. And yes, I know it's about what you did THIS season, but how often is the Heisman awarded based on career achievements coupled with a great season? Maybe they just didn't want to give it to TWO Canadians this year.
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Re: Bowermans

Postby dj » Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:58 am

bruce3404 wrote:. . . Theisen. Six multis titles in four seasons eclipses all. And yes, I know it's about what you did THIS season, but how often is the Heisman awarded based on career achievements coupled with a great season?


Bowerman voters can hold themselves to a higher standard than some Heisman voters and their idiocies.
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Re: Bowermans

Postby gh » Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:08 pm

T&FN's selections (as published in the August issue) were Levins and Theisen.

My votes went to Riley and Barrett.
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Re: Bowermans

Postby tandfman » Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:56 pm

It should be noted that the voters were casting their votes based on information that turned out to be wrong. When the Bowerman website announced the voting period and described the credentials of the finalists, the summary of Duncan's achievements included the following:
This season, Duncan contributed 20½ points to LSU’s claim of the NCAA outdoor team title, winning the 200 meters, finishing runner-up in the 100, and anchoring the Lady Tigers to victory in the 4×100 relay.

http://www.thebowerman.org/met n_watch/fan-voting-for-the-bowerman-has-begun-get-your-choices-in

Problem is that both LSU's outdoor team title and their victory in the 4x100 relay were vacated after the voting closed, when it turned out that Semoy Hackett had tested positive. Those facts were omitted from the press release announcing that Duncan had won the Bowerman.

http://www.thebowerman.org/news/cam-lev ... e-bowerman
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Re: Bowermans

Postby bruce3404 » Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:37 pm

tandfman wrote:
Problem is that both LSU's outdoor team title and their victory in the 4x100 relay were vacated after the voting closed, when it turned out that Semoy Hackett had tested positive. Those facts were omitted from the press release announcing that Duncan had won the Bowerman.

http://www.thebowerman.org/news/cam-lev ... e-bowerman


While I wouldn't hold Hackett's indiscretions against Duncan, I still think it should have gone to Theisen, who possibly also would have scored in the HJ, hurdles and 4x400 had she not been saving a little for Team Canada in the Olympics. All three nominees were deserving.
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Re: Bowermans

Postby ATK » Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:19 pm

bruce3404 wrote:...I still think it should have gone to Theisen, who possibly also would have scored in the HJ, hurdles and 4x400 had she not been saving a little for Team Canada in the Olympics. All three nominees were deserving....

Duncan COULD have scored in the 400 and 4x400 also...
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Re: Bowermans

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Dec 25, 2012 9:23 pm

ATK wrote:
bruce3404 wrote:...I still think it should have gone to Theisen, who possibly also would have scored in the HJ, hurdles and 4x400 had she not been saving a little for Team Canada in the Olympics. All three nominees were deserving....

Duncan COULD have scored in the 400 and 4x400 also...

I agree with you. The award is based on what the athletes actually did, not what they coulda, woulda and shoulda done. However, unlike last year when I felt that Duncan was robbed, I wouldn't have had a problem with Barrett or Theisen winning this year. All three were equally deserving in my opinion.

I also agree with those who felt that it was a travesty that Sheila Reid wasn't a finalist last year, though she was underwhelming at the Mt. Sac Relays, her one race where she was expected to put all her cards on the table and show us what she's got, a la Jenny Barringer at the 2009 Prefontaine Classic. I realize that distance runners don't have as many opportunities to put up impressive marks as the sprinters, hurdlers, jumpers and throwers, but I expect all Bowerman winners to wow me with their performance at least once during the season, and that was my knock on Jessica Beard in 2011.
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Re: Bowermans

Postby bruce3404 » Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:15 am

jazzcyclist wrote: but I expect all Bowerman winners to wow me with their performance at least once during the season, and that was my knock on Jessica Beard in 2011.


Are you forgetting her 4x400 leg that clinched that NCAA Title for A&M? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMd_NF4Ly0M
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Re: Bowermans

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:48 am

bruce3404 wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote: but I expect all Bowerman winners to wow me with their performance at least once during the season, and that was my knock on Jessica Beard in 2011.


Are you forgetting her 4x400 leg that clinched that NCAA Title for A&M? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMd_NF4Ly0M

I don't think any relay performances should be taken into consideration, since all of them aren't.
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Re: Bowermans

Postby gh » Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:51 am

I just don't want to see the Bowermans go the way of the Heisman, where the best QB on a highly-rated team is the same as a sprinter who has a chance to run 3 events for the team champion. It's an easy formula to fall into, paraticularly when NCAA team-think is applied to what should be purely an individual award.
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Re: Bowermans

Postby Marlow » Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:16 am

gh wrote:NCAA team-think is applied to what should be purely an individual award.

The Heisman can't be awarded to an 'individual' player, because no QB could win without linemen and receivers, and no running back could do it without blockers, and no receiver could do it w/o the QB. Could not an AF/SRR type runner win the Bman with individual AND relay performances, esp. if they result in a NatChamp?
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Re: Bowermans

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:41 am

gh wrote:I just don't want to see the Bowermans go the way of the Heisman, where the best QB on a highly-rated team is the same as a sprinter who has a chance to run 3 events for the team champion. It's an easy formula to fall into, paraticularly when NCAA team-think is applied to what should be purely an individual award.

I agree with you gh, despite the fact that LSU, which has won 31 NCAA team championships and more than twice as many NCAA relay titles than the #2 school on the list, would benefit more from team-think than any other school in the nation. Keep in mind that unlike in football, where the team you're on can have a huge impact on individual performance, that's not the case in track and field with regards to the individual events. With the same coaches, Duncan, Theisen and Barrett would have performed the same no matter what school they went to, but Johnny Manziel wouldn't have performed the same if he had gone to a weak FBS school, not mention an FCS school, no matter who was coaching him.
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Re: Bowermans

Postby Marlow » Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:40 pm

gh wrote:Perhaps just a tad hard to get excited about an award based on a season that officially ended 6.5 months ago.

Yet here we sit with AOYs, POYs and Annual Rankings that could have been made (Marathon exc.) 3.5 months ago . . .
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Re: Bowermans

Postby ATK » Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:00 pm

Marlow wrote:
gh wrote:Perhaps just a tad hard to get excited about an award based on a season that officially ended 6.5 months ago.

Yet here we sit with AOYs, POYs and Annual Rankings that could have been made (Marathon exc.) 3.5 months ago . . .

Collecting an compiling all that data/votes in a week? doubt it.
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Re: Bowermans

Postby Marlow » Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:35 am

ATK wrote:
Marlow wrote:
gh wrote:Perhaps just a tad hard to get excited about an award based on a season that officially ended 6.5 months ago.

Yet here we sit with AOYs, POYs and Annual Rankings that could have been made (Marathon exc.) 3.5 months ago . . .

Collecting an compiling all that data/votes in a week? doubt it.

My point is that the NCAA waited till the end of the year, when many awards are given out for 'annual' (even when the 'year' ends much earlier) accomplishments. The Heisman is one of the few that comes out in a timely manner. The Bowerman (and AOY) was part of the norm (calendar year-end).
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Re: Bowermans

Postby ATK » Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:27 am

Marlow wrote:
ATK wrote:
Marlow wrote:
gh wrote:Perhaps just a tad hard to get excited about an award based on a season that officially ended 6.5 months ago.

Yet here we sit with AOYs, POYs and Annual Rankings that could have been made (Marathon exc.) 3.5 months ago . . .

Collecting an compiling all that data/votes in a week? doubt it.

My point is that the NCAA waited till the end of the year, when many awards are given out for 'annual' (even when the 'year' ends much earlier) accomplishments. The Heisman is one of the few that comes out in a timely manner. The Bowerman (and AOY) was part of the norm (calendar year-end).

Seems more like you were saying the AOY takes to long to be announced as well...
I think the AOY is announced in a timely manner. Considering the outdoor season can end anywhere between early sep and late oct(maybe even later) depending on the year.

But having the college season end in june, and announcing the college "AOY" when some of thoes athletes have already started the indoor season is pretty rediculous. Especially if nothing between NCAA's and the announcement is supposed to count.
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Re: Bowermans

Postby Tuariki » Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:53 am

ATK wrote:Seems more like you were saying the AOY takes to long to be announced as well...
I think the AOY is announced in a timely manner. Considering the outdoor season can end anywhere between early sep and late oct(maybe even later) depending on the year.

But having the college season end in june, and announcing the college "AOY" when some of thoes athletes have already started the indoor season is pretty rediculous. Especially if nothing between NCAA's and the announcement is supposed to count.


In NZ the last competition was scheduled NZ time Saturday 30 December. And every year there is usually a number of US collegiate athletes, including some kiwis, who come down to compete in NZ during December.
As the year actually ends on 31 December it is therefore incumbent for the organisers of AOY for TnF to actually wait for the end of the year. Unlike team sports with defined seasons it is possible for a TnF athlete to set an outdoor record on 31 December.
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Re: Bowermans

Postby Marlow » Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:29 am

ATK wrote:Seems more like you were saying the AOY takes to long to be announced as well...
I think the AOY is announced in a timely manner. Considering the outdoor season can end anywhere between early sep and late oct(maybe even later) depending on the year.
But having the college season end in june, and announcing the college "AOY" when some of thoes athletes have already started the indoor season is pretty rediculous. Especially if nothing between NCAA's and the announcement is supposed to count.

The outdoor season ended (effectively, i.e., there are no more significant data points thereafter) on Sep 7 with the last GP/GL meet. Over three and a half months ago.
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Re: Bowermans

Postby tandfman » Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:00 pm

Marlow wrote:The outdoor season ended (effectively, i.e., there are no more significant data points thereafter) on Sep 7 with the last GP/GL meet. Over three and a half months ago.

What about all the fall marathons? I believe the marathon does count for T&FN's AOY.
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Re: Bowermans

Postby Marlow » Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:01 pm

tandfman wrote:
Marlow wrote:The outdoor season ended (effectively, i.e., there are no more significant data points thereafter) on Sep 7 with the last GP/GL meet. Over three and a half months ago.

What about all the fall marathons? I believe the marathon does count for T&FN's AOY.

I already noted that exception. T&FN used to list that separately after the annual issue .
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