Black question

[Anthony Treacher]

GH has informed the world that if Mr. T. terms a non-white person as "C*l*r*d" GH will give Mr. T. a life-time ban from this forum.

That is perfectly OK by Mr. T. But Mr. T. finds the term "Non-White" even more discriminatory, disrespectful and obnoxious.

May Mr. T. instead term a non-white person as "Black"? Is that correct in the US and Canada?

[Pego]

I am beginning to understand why you have been banned from all those places.

[mump boy]

GH has informed the world that if Mr. T. terms a non-white person as "C*l*r*d" GH will give Mr. T. a life-time ban from this forum.

That is perfectly OK by Mr. T. But Mr. T. finds the term "Non-White" even more discriminatory, disrespectful and obnoxious.

May Mr. T. instead term a non-white person as "Black"? Is that correct in the US and Canada?

It would also be correct on the UK because it's not the 50's anymore

[gh]

I am beginning to understand why you have been banned from all those places.

and this place.

[Blues]

If I somehow gave Mr. Treacher the idea in the locked thread that he should correctly refer to blacks or people of African descent as "non-whites", I apologize to him. Obviously that suggests inequality also. I used a shortened form of "people who are not white" to try to explain to him that it was generally considered offensive in the USA to refer to people who are not white as "colored", and it was the same term that my Macbook's built-in Oxford dictionary used, of which a copied portion is below. My initial attempt to explain to him only mentioned "people of non-white descent"... Although Mr. Treacher seems to have misinterpreted much of what I wrote in my posts, as well as my reason for trying to explain it to him in the first place, I apologize if I wasn't clear as to why I used the term "non-white". or "non-white descent"

"2 (also Colored) wholly or partly of nonwhite descent (now considered offensive in the US).
(also Coloured) South African used as an ethnic label for people of mixed ethnic origin, including African slave, Malay, Chinese, and white.
dated or offensive relating to people who are wholly or partly of nonwhite descent:
-a colored club"

[Pego]

If I somehow gave Mr. Treacher the idea in the locked thread that he should correctly refer to blacks or people of African descent as "non-whites", I apologize to him. Obviously that suggests inequality also. I used a shortened form of "people who are not white" to try to explain to him that it was generally considered offensive in the USA to refer to people who are not white as "colored", and it was the same term that my Macbook's built-in Oxford dictionary used, of which a copied portion is below. My initial attempt to explain to him only mentioned "people of non-white descent"... Although Mr. Treacher seems to have misinterpreted much of what I wrote in my posts, as well as my reason for trying to explain it to him in the first place, I apologize if I wasn't clear as to why I used the term "non-white". or "non-white descent"

"2 (also Colored) wholly or partly of nonwhite descent (now considered offensive in the US).
(also Coloured) South African used as an ethnic label for people of mixed ethnic origin, including African slave, Malay, Chinese, and white.
dated or offensive relating to people who are wholly or partly of nonwhite descent:
-a colored club"

I can assure you that your mea culpa over Mr Treacher's ban is wholly undeserved.

[Dutra5]

If I somehow gave Mr. Treacher the idea in the locked thread that he should correctly refer to blacks or people of African descent as "non-whites", I apologize to him. Obviously that suggests inequality also. I used a shortened form of "people who are not white" to try to explain to him that it was generally considered offensive in the USA to refer to people who are not white as "colored", and it was the same term that my Macbook's built-in Oxford dictionary used, of which a copied portion is below. My initial attempt to explain to him only mentioned "people of non-white descent"... Although Mr. Treacher seems to have misinterpreted much of what I wrote in my posts, as well as my reason for trying to explain it to him in the first place, I apologize if I wasn't clear as to why I used the term "non-white". or "non-white descent"

"2 (also Colored) wholly or partly of nonwhite descent (now considered offensive in the US).
(also Coloured) South African used as an ethnic label for people of mixed ethnic origin, including African slave, Malay, Chinese, and white.
dated or offensive relating to people who are wholly or partly of nonwhite descent:
-a colored club"

I thought you explained yourself succinctly more than once to the poster who seemed to be attempting to press the limits of what he could say or question before getting banned.

[dukehjsteve]

Not trying to start anything here, just asking a straighforward question...

Growing up in the NY area in the 50's, the word of choice for African Americans was "Negro."

This word seemed to die a total death when " Black" came into favor.

So is the word " Negro" more/less out of favor than " Colored "? You never hear either one any more.. and that's just fine.

[mump boy]

Not trying to start anything here, just asking a straighforward question...

Growing up in the NY area in the 50's, the word of choice for African Americans was "Negro."

This word seemed to die a total death when " Black" came into favor.

So is the word " Negro" more/less out of favor than " Colored "? You never hear either one any more.. and that's just fine.

Times change, as does language and neither are now acceptable for whatever reason Why would anyone insist on using language that they have been told is considered offensive ?

It is okay to do it inadvertently but if you're told why persist ?

[tandfman]

Times change, as does language

That is a point sometimes missed. The original lyrics of Stephen Foster ("Swanee River"), W. S. Gilbert ("I've Got A Little List"), and Oscar Hammerstein ("Ol' Man River") were accepted in their time. (The most recent of those songs was written in 1927.) These lyrics could never be written today. The fact that "colored" was once appropriate does not make it so today. Standards change, and none of us should use language that is offensive today, even if that language was once commonplace.

[Marlow]

Standards change, and none of us should use language that is offensive today, even if that language was once commonplace.

If you want an 'interesting' challenge, try teaching Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, which uses the n-word to brilliant 'effect'. Clemens knew exactly what he was doing in 1876, when he began it (it took 8 years to finish, as he kept abandoning it!). Although the novel is set in the antebellum South of the 1840s, where the word had little baggage attached to it (given the prevailing mores of plantation life), by the 1870s the word had already begun its deep slide into darkness. The misanthropic Clemens abhorred the residual racism he saw everywhere and sought to embarrass his readers into recognizing the casual acceptance of the word (representing the sentiment that they were NOT racist, when they so obviously were) and the attitudes towards the ex-slaves. The day we begin the novel, we spend the hour discussing the term and its evolution (which is continuIng today, 2012). It's a great lesson in the power of words, bad and good.
Colored, Negro, Black, African-American, and all the concomitant slurs . . . they are all symbols of our struggle with our fellow man and and our all-too-often failure to understand others' perspectives.

[lonewolf]

Not trying to start anything here, just asking a straighforward question...

Growing up in the NY area in the 50's, the word of choice for African Americans was "Negro."

This word seemed to die a total death when " Black" came into favor.

So is the word " Negro" more/less out of favor than " Colored "? You never hear either one any more.. and that's just fine.

Like dukehjsteve, I have lived through the transition of acceptable names for Negros, which, I believe, is the correct racial designation. I am willing to abide by the contemporary approved term but would like to raise the following points/questions.

African-American, imo, is an inaccurate attempt to be unnecessarily PC. Few American "blacks" are actually from Africa or have even been to Africa, not all black Americans come from Africa, all Africans are not black and not all blacks are Negros.
A South African emigre of Dutch ancestry to America would be an African American.

I am American Indian. To me and every Indian I know, Native American is a strained attempt to placate a minority when none is needed. Understandably, we do not like being portrayed as chracteristically drunken, shiftless savages; although, just as in any race, many fit that profile. In my youth in the 1930s, that perception was prevalent and many Indians hid their heritage. Now "everyone" wants to be an Indian.

We have previously discussed here the trend to selectively abolish all things Indian as mascots of sports teams. I believe this demand comes mostly from PC fearing non-Indians. Many schools have defied the clamor, interpreting their Indian related mascot/themes as a statement of warrior pride and perseverance. The Florida State Seminoles come to mind. The Appaloosa and flaming spear are among the best mascots in sports.

And, the Cleveland Indians and Wasington Redskins are still with us.

There are many regular posters on this forum who have identified themselves as of Negro ancestry. I am not aware there is any discrimination against them or that they have ever been disrespected here because of their race.

I have been PM'ed by some inquiring as to whether I have ever suffered discrimination because of my ancestry. My answer is, no, but I understand and sympathize that they have a more difficult situation.
It would be informative to the forum if we could hear from them if their objection is to the word Negro or to the admittedly derogatory "n-word". Do they really favor the ambiguous term African-American?

[mump boy]

I'm from the UK where while we have racism we don't have the baggage that a history of slavery brings with it, things are slightly different here

I've always thought African American was a rather ridiculous term for all the reasons you've stated above, why not call white people european americans ? African american is just another way of making black people 'the other' as if they are not really americans at all !! I think black is probably the simplest term to use

I'm of mixed race and in some instances resent being called black (for simplicity it's easier to go along with it) but for all of my childhood i was quite happily labelled (and labelled myself) as half caste, it is only when the true meaning (half pure !!) became apparent that mixed race took over

According to last years census 'mixed race' is the fastest growing demographic in the country with Jessica Ennis the poster girl

While i'm obviously very happy with this it does come across, that (as for centuries) it's celebrated as the acceptable face of black people on the UK. I'll be happier when when Perri becomes the face of modern britain (obviously i understand this is not a great comparison achievement wise but you get my drift) which may be a long way off no matter how much she ever wins.

[Pego]

Colored, Negro, Black, African-American, and all the concomitant slurs . . . they are all symbols of our struggle with our fellow man and and our all-too-often failure to understand others' perspectives.

For some, perhaps. Most of the time it is no more than naked racism. I don't buy "inadverent" slurs. They are either intentional or a "Freudian slip." Your above assessment is way too kind. Oh well, it's Christmas .

[tandfman]

In recent years, I've started to hear more references to "people of color" (or, as the context may be, "men of color" or "women of color"). I've heard this from individuals who are in that category.

I think this has been discussed before here, a long time ago. And as I recall, I said then--and will say now--that for most of us who are considered "white" or "Caucasion" and who are not racists, the goal is always to use terms for others that are not going to offend anyone. It's not easy when people in a racial or ethnic group have different and changing preferences and very different sensitivies about being referred to in ways other than the one they prefer.

[gh]

My pure guess is that one reason African-American has taken root so solidly is simply because of alliterative nature of the phrase; it flows off the tongue easily.

Unlike "African-Canadian." Wiki's take on why you hear that phrase little:

<<Black Canadians is a designation used for people of Black African descent, who are citizens or permanent residents of Canada.[2][3] The term specifically refers to Canadians with partial or direct Sub-Saharan African ancestry. The majority of Black Canadians are of Caribbean origin.[4]
Black Canadians and other Canadians often draw a distinction between those of Afro-Caribbean ancestry and those of other African roots. The term African Canadian is sometimes used by Black Canadians who trace their heritage to the first slaves brought by British and French colonists to the mainland of North America,[3] but many Blacks of Caribbean origin in Canada reject the term African Canadian as an elision of the uniquely Caribbean aspects of their heritage,[5] and instead identify as Caribbean Canadian.[5] Unlike in the United States where African American is the most widely accepted term, due to these tensions and controversies between the African and Caribbean communities the term "Black Canadian" is still accepted in the Canadian context.[6]>>

[jeremyp]

Can we refer to Caucasians as those of "pinkish hue?"

[SQUACKEE]

Can we refer to Caucasians as those of "pinkish hue?"

My friend at work, who is from the Domican Rep. always sez when he leaves, I'll be black and I always response, I'll be a horrible shade of pink. If I wasnt white enough, I have a chemical burn on my arm that is whiter then white. I always equated being tan with being fit, it did help a little bit to be sitting in that Olympic stadium in 1972 and watch a very pale Lasse Viren run quite well.Like George Carlin said, I want to get some sun to nuetralize the blue.

[lonewolf]

Can we refer to Caucasians as those of "pinkish hue?"

You could but not all Caucasians are pink/white anymore than all "blacks" are black. Nor are all /any American Indians redskins or all Asians yellow. Denoting race by color is a tricky business beyond my paygrade.

[jazzcyclist]

Not trying to start anything here, just asking a straighforward question...

Growing up in the NY area in the 50's, the word of choice for African Americans was "Negro."

This word seemed to die a total death when " Black" came into favor.

So is the word " Negro" more/less out of favor than " Colored "? You never hear either one any more.. and that's just fine.

Times change, as does language and neither are now acceptable for whatever reason Why would anyone insist on using language that they have been told is considered offensive ?

It is okay to do it inadvertently but if you're told why persist ?

To be honest, I'm tired of Black folks changing what we call ourselves. When I was growing up, my grandmother used the word Colored, and I doubt that the nation's oldest and most prestigious civil right organization would have incorporated this word into its name if was considered a slur at the time. Then we became Negroes, then Black and today African-Americans. Personally, I'm the most comfortable with the word Black, probably because that was the term of choice that was in fashion when I was a kid growing up - "Say it loud, I'm Black and I'm proud". However, I don't get offended when I hear the other terms being used. Even the term Colored doesn't bother me, especially if used by someone over the age of 80; however, if I hear some 20-year-old White guy using this term, I would suspect the he was being intentionally provocative. Some folks seem to be constantly looking for new reasons to be offended.

[jazzcyclist]

Can we refer to Caucasians as those of "pinkish hue?"

You could but not all Caucasians are pink/white anymore than all "blacks" are black. Nor are all /any American Indians redskins or all Asians yellow. Denoting race by color is a tricky business beyond my paygrade.

I guess there's no hard rule on these things but here's my list of usages:

White = Europe, northwest Asia
Black = sub-Saharan Africa
Yellow = east Asia
Brown = southcentral Asia, north Africa
Red = North and South Americas

[jeremyp]

Can we refer to Caucasians as those of "pinkish hue?"

You could but not all Caucasians are pink/white anymore than all "blacks" are black. Nor are all /any American Indians redskins or all Asians yellow. Denoting race by color is a tricky business beyond my paygrade.

I guess there's no hard rule on these things but here's my list of usages:

White = Europe, northwest Asia
Black = sub-Saharan Africa
Yellow = east Asia
Brown = southcentral Asia, north Africa
Red = North and South Americas

Middle East=Green??

[Marlow]

Most of the time it is no more than naked racism. . . . Your above assessment is way too kind.

What we call racism is just one manifestation of a larger issue, which spawned sexism, anti-Semitism, Christians hating Muslims, Muslims hating Christians, the 19th century ill-will towards the Chinese - basically everyone who hates any group in an 'us vs. them' way. The broader term is xenophobia, although that word's current use is generally constrained to fear or hatred of 'foreigners'. Fighting the root xenophobia is like playing whack-a-mole - you smack it down in one place and it pops back in another. It's bred into our DNA, cuz back in day, you had better fear those who were not like you, cuz they probably were tring to kill you! [doesn't explain sexism, of course, but that's simple: keep 'em barefoot and pregnant and don't them them wander too far from home]. We'll eventually extinguish racism through intermarriage (we're all gonna end up looking like Tiger Woods!), but rest assured that racism will be replaced by other, equally ugly, 'isms (moles).

[jazzcyclist]

Middle East=Green??

Brown

[Blues]

We'll eventually extinguish racism through intermarriage (we're all gonna end up looking like Tiger Woods!), but rest assured that racism will be replaced by other, equally ugly, 'isms (moles).

No offense to Tiger intended, but if that's the way it will eventually be, is there at least a chance the females might all end up looking a little more like Halle Berry or Jessica Ennis?

[Tuariki]

Can we refer to Caucasians as those of "pinkish hue?"

You could but not all Caucasians are pink/white anymore than all "blacks" are black. Nor are all /any American Indians redskins or all Asians yellow. Denoting race by color is a tricky business beyond my paygrade.

In my youth in the 1930s, that perception was prevalent and many Indians hid their heritage. Now "everyone" wants to be an Indian.

Hey there lonewolf. You are my hero for still having a pay grade at your age.

As you so eloquently suggested, describing a person by trying to equate them to a particular racial grouping is fraught with difficulty if you are intent on also not offending anybody.

For example, a recent migrant from China to NZ joins a bunch of us at the pub. The group includes 3 Maori, 2 white guys, and one US guy married to a Maori girl. He is a Navajo Indian. And there is also a US basketball player playing professionally here in NZ. He is black (or is that dark brown) or is it African-American. Anyway you know what I mean.

The Chinese guy with passable English listens. He eventually deduces from listening to the banter going back and forward that all Maori are referred to as "hori" (pronounced "whore - ree", ( "hori" is the Maori word for George), whites are referred to as "Pakeha" (the Maori word for Caucasians) or "honky" (a word adopted by Maori youth courtesy of American TV). And he has also deduced that native North Americans are referred to as "Hiawatha"). And from the basketball player who spent most of the night giving his opinion of fellow US basketball players he has learnt that people like him are referred to as "black mother-------s",

"Hori" was originally used by white settlers as a condescending (and that's being generous) reference to Maori. And by the 70s it was considered somewhat offensive. However, it has now come full circle because Maori themselves took to using it to describe themselves as horis in social banter situations.

And of course my poor Chinese immigrant friend with his new found confidence in learning how to speak Kiwi now goes out and gets himself in a whole shitload of trouble.

[jazzcyclist]

I didn't realize until 16 years ago, while on a trip to Europe, that the term "n****r" isn't universally a slur. On the hand, most Black Americans wouldn't even realize that they had been insulted if some called them a "kaffir".

[Tuariki]

To be honest, I'm tired of Black folks changing what we call ourselves. When I was growing up, my grandmother used the word Colored, and I doubt that the nation's oldest and most prestigious civil right organization would have incorporated this word into its name if was considered a slur at the time. Then we became Negroes, then Black and today African-Americans. Personally, I'm the most comfortable with the word Black, probably because that was the term of choice that was in fashion when I was a kid growing up - "Say it loud, I'm Black and I'm proud". However, I don't get offended when I hear the other terms being used. Even the term Colored doesn't bother me, especially if used by someone over the age of 80; however, if I hear some 20-year-old White guy using this term, I would suspect the he was being intentionally provocative. Some folks seem to be constantly looking for new reasons to be offended.

Awesome explanation.

I arrived in the USA in the spring of 1970 as a wet behind the ears 18 year old. And it was very much the "I am Black and I am proud" era. Stokely Carmichael, Huey Newton, Bobby Seale, Malcolm X shaped and defined the use of the word "Black". John Carlos and Tommie Smith were and remain icons of that era.

[jazzcyclist]

We'll eventually extinguish racism through intermarriage (we're all gonna end up looking like Tiger Woods!), but rest assured that racism will be replaced by other, equally ugly, 'isms (moles).

Actually, there are very few Black Americans who aren't multiracial. I never understood why folks make such a big deal out of folks like Tiger Wood's and Barack Obama's ethnicity, but I guess it's because they both have at least one parent who isn't multiracial (presumably neither of Obama's parents are multiracial). There are many Blacks who don't have a 100% European parent who nonetheless possess a lot more European DNA than Obama. A while back, DNA testing was done on former NFL player Emmit Smith, and it was discovered that he was 12% (~1/8th) European and 6% (~1/16th) Native American.

[jazzcyclist]

Awesome explanation.

I arrived in the USA in the spring of 1970 as a wet behind the ears 18 year old. And it was very much the "I am Black and I am proud" era. Stokely Carmichael, Huey Newton, Bobby Seale, Malcolm X shaped and defined the use of the word "Black". John Carlos and Tommie Smith were and remain icons of that era.

A few years ago, I thought it was downright silly when some folks were up in arms after Harry Reid used the word "Negro" when discussing Obama's candicacy for President when it was clear that he wasn't trying to disparage anyone and everybody understood the point he was trying to make.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/0 ... 17406.html

[Tuariki]

Awesome explanation.

I arrived in the USA in the spring of 1970 as a wet behind the ears 18 year old. And it was very much the "I am Black and I am proud" era. Stokely Carmichael, Huey Newton, Bobby Seale, Malcolm X shaped and defined the use of the word "Black". John Carlos and Tommie Smith were and remain icons of that era.

A few years ago, I thought it was downright silly when some folks were up in arms after Harry Reid used the word "Negro" when discussing Obama's candicacy for President when it was clear that he wasn't trying to disparage anyone and everybody understood the point he was trying to make.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/0 ... 17406.html

But that's politics.
And all is fair in politics.
As Lyndon Johnson used to say, it is all about perception.
So let Harry Reid spend his whole campaign denying he is a closet white racist supremacist.

[Marlow]

there are very few Black Americans who aren't multiracial. . . .There are many Blacks who don't have a 100% European parent who nonetheless possess a lot more European DNA than Obama. A while back, DNA testing was done on former NFL player Emmit Smith, and it was discovered that he was 12% (~1/8th) European and 6% (~1/16th) Native American.

Which is why the 'pale sprinter' threads were so stupid. Defining a sprinter as 'black' or 'pale' is an insult to the real complexity of our heritages. As I've mentioned, my blonde-haired, blue-eyed children (and now grandchildren) have Cherokee blood coursing through their veins. My wife (light-brown hair, blue-eyed, very fairly complected) could have qualified for a scholarship for Native-Americans, for heavens sake!! Looking at someone like Mariah Carey or Vanessa Williams should cure us of labeling someone. Nowadays race is often self-determined, and sooner or later even that distinction will be meaningless. My (known) heritage is British (Eng/Wales/Scot) and Dutch, which makes me a mutt, and I always put down 'Other' under 'race' on forms I have to fill out.

[Pego]

basically everyone who hates any group in an 'us vs. them' way

I like the word "tribalism" to describe this phenomenon. Mrs Pego's native village was fairly evenly divided into Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox and Russian Orthodox. Each group considered itself superior to those others (naturally).

[gh]

A 60 Minutes episode of a couple of months back suggested that the "us vs. them" thing exists in babies of a very young age. Not at all learned behaviour, as I recall.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-5 ... -morality/

[SQUACKEE]

there are a lot of people in connecticut who hate new yawckers, and so it goes