Level of exertion, cycling vs. distance running?


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Re: Level of exertion, cycling vs. distance running?

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:27 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:
26mi235 wrote:Bill Koch, the most successful US cross country skier of my era, use to ride in the summer for training -- he would do 100-mile rides (this is in Vermont, so hilly) and he would remove the seat post/saddle from the bike!


Very interesting. Never thought of that, but it makes a lot of sense. I might even try it sometime soon.

I remember Koch very well, the first to use the skating style. I wonder how he came up with this not using a seat post.

I understand the rationale for riding out of the saddle during training rides, but I don't see the point of removing the seat post unless he felt that he lacked the self-discipline to stay off the saddle if it was on the bike.


Well, I agree taking the seat post out is a bit over the top. Especially if you slipped out of your pedals. Ouch!
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Re: Level of exertion, cycling vs. distance running?

Postby 26mi235 » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:33 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:
26mi235 wrote:Bill Koch, the most successful US cross country skier of my era, use to ride in the summer for training -- he would do 100-mile rides (this is in Vermont, so hilly) and he would remove the seat post/saddle from the bike!


Very interesting. Never thought of that, but it makes a lot of sense. I might even try it sometime soon.

I remember Koch very well, the first to use the skating style. I wonder how he came up with this not using a seat post.

I understand the rationale for riding out of the saddle during training rides, but I don't see the point of removing the seat post unless he felt that he lacked the self-discipline to stay off the saddle if it was on the bike.


Without the seatpost you only have to think of it and decide once: when your are getting ready. If you have to seat there you have to consider your options many many times. Similar to the reason it was easier to go for a run with others as scheduled -- that way I did not have to decide when (and eventually if, on occasions that it slips too much).
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Re: Level of exertion, cycling vs. distance running?

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:56 pm

26mi235 wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:I understand the rationale for riding out of the saddle during training rides, but I don't see the point of removing the seat post unless he felt that he lacked the self-discipline to stay off the saddle if it was on the bike.


Without the seatpost you only have to think of it and decide once: when your are getting ready. If you have to seat there you have to consider your options many many times. Similar to the reason it was easier to go for a run with others as scheduled -- that way I did not have to decide when (and eventually if, on occasions that it slips too much).

But whether we're talking about doing solo training runs as scheduled or riding with a saddle, doesn't it all come down to self-discipline? The only reason I can see for riding without a saddle would be if you didn't trust yourself to resist the urge to take a break when you're tired. In a way, you're building up physical AND mental strength when you ride with a saddle, but are able to ignore your legs when they're screaming for you to sit down.
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Re: Level of exertion, cycling vs. distance running?

Postby 26mi235 » Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:33 pm

You need to consider the difference between 1000 different decisions and one decision. It is not really the same self-disciple problem.

If you go out 50 miles and return (with that being the shortest good route) and compare that with going out on a 1-mile circuit, even with a highly motivated individual, which one would have a greater frequency of doing less than 100 miles. It simply is not the same problem.

Furthermore, the one approach simply removes the option from consideration so that you do not spend effort thinking about it, even if you are universally successful. There may be some training times that what you want is to build up the ability to be semi-perfect on that 50 out/back and the 1 around 100 times. However, it is not like the athlete is always going to be thinking about quitting during the race unless they continually train by the 'resist the temptation many-many times'.
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Re: Level of exertion, cycling vs. distance running?

Postby lonewolf » Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:56 pm

If you are going to remove the seat, you definitely want to also remove the post. :shock:
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Re: Level of exertion, cycling vs. distance running?

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:14 pm

I guess I can see your point if you know you don't have the self-discipline, but that's never been a problem for me. The number of times in my life that I didn't complete an planned workout (running, cycling, weight-lifting, etc.) after I got started can be counted on one hand, and those were due to injury or some other type of physical ailment. However, I will admit that there have been plenty of times that I've cancelled planned workouts, but once I get started, the entire workout is as good as done.

My biggest reasons for not taking my saddle of my bike to do such a workout would be practical reasons. Whenever I need to unclip to stop for a traffic light or stop sign, I like to do it from a seated position. I've never unclipped standing up, but I'm guessing that it could be very painful if you didn't do it right.
:wink:
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Re: Level of exertion, cycling vs. distance running?

Postby 26mi235 » Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:11 pm

Koch preceded clips, he was in the toe-clip era. The thing about not having the seat seems fundamentally different than the workout choices that you are talking about.
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Re: Level of exertion, cycling vs. distance running?

Postby Conor Dary » Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:19 pm

lonewolf wrote:If you are going to remove the seat, you definitely want to also remove the post. :shock:


I would say that is a given....
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Re: Level of exertion, cycling vs. distance running?

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:23 pm

26mi235 wrote:The thing about not having the seat seems fundamentally different than the workout choices that you are talking about.

I've never done an entire back ride out of the saddle, but I have done plenty of workouts in which I was constantly battling the urge to surrender before I was finished. I guess we'll just have to respectfully disagree on the significance of removing the seat post. To me that's a trick of the mentally weak.
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Re: Level of exertion, cycling vs. distance running?

Postby bambam » Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:03 pm

26mi235 wrote:Koch preceded clips, he was in the toe-clip era. The thing about not having the seat seems fundamentally different than the workout choices that you are talking about.


Getting out of the pedals in the toe clip was much more difficult than with clip-ins.
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Re: Level of exertion, cycling vs. distance running?

Postby KevinM » Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:54 am

jazzcyclist wrote:To me that's a trick of the mentally weak.


All athletes have mental weaknesses, and we all use tricks to get around them, no matter the extent to which we might puff up our chests claiming otherwise.
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Re: Level of exertion, cycling vs. distance running?

Postby skyin' brian » Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:03 am

so, which one of you should I blame if next time I go for a ride I fall down attempting to unclip while standing up?

I actually have seen a guy riding without a seat post before. His large chainring was pretty big.

Have you seen those elliptigo contraptions? Sort of an elliptical trainer/bicycle hybrid, maybe that would be good for someone that doesn't like to sit.
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Re: Level of exertion, cycling vs. distance running?

Postby TN1965 » Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:38 am

skyin' brian wrote:Have you seen those elliptigo contraptions? Sort of an elliptical trainer/bicycle hybrid, maybe that would be good for someone that doesn't like to sit.


Elliptigo is used by many elite athletes as a cross training tool, including Lauren Fleshman, Julie Culley and Magdalena Lewy Boulet.

I have also heard that there are elliptigo races and Adam Goucher was a recent participant.
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Re: Level of exertion, cycling vs. distance running?

Postby bambam » Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:54 pm

skyin' brian wrote:I actually have seen a guy riding without a seat post before. His large chainring was pretty big.


About 10 years ago in New Hampshire was riding a mountainous course, and still had two 3,000 foot climbs, and about 12 miles, to go, when my front derailleur broke with the chain fixed on the big ring. That was a killer workout, trying to get over those climbs on the big ring. Had to walk a little bit of the second climb. Do not recommend this.
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Re: Level of exertion, cycling vs. distance running?

Postby Vielleicht » Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:07 pm

I also tried using an eclliptical trainer to build cardiovascular fitness for a half-marathon race in order to save my knee injury from flaring before it. And half way into it my calves felt shot just as Mr. TN1965 did.
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